CAR SEAT discussion

[EvilSoup]

I am still very confused why a two car, two working parent family didn't own two carseats that fit the child!

I am a stay at home mom, and we only own one vehicle. My husband walks to work so our van is home for me to use all day with the children if I need to. Each child has a spare booster/car seat for my parents' vehicle so they are safe when riding with them, and there's never a time when we are accidentally stuck without a seat because someone drove off with the only seat for that child, etc.

Honestly, all the eating out, guitars, two car payments, etc but CH not having a carseat to safely sit in just boils my blood. Even if I believed with 100% certainty that JRH had "forgotten baby syndrome," the carseat not fitting CH is enough for a neglect charge.

It goes to my thinking that Cooper was not a priority. Honestly, season tickets to Bama games? All these expensive restaurants RH claims to have eaten at and recommends on Reddit.....and they cannot afford a second carseat?

AND....RH was using the bigger, appropriate carseat, but then went back to the outgrown one, AND put the straps on the lowest setting?

 

[EvilSoup]

If this was premeditated, RH sure didn't put much thought into it, and honestly, did little to nothing to cover tracks.

IMO, he read a few news articles about poor, forgetful parents and figured the police would just give him a pass, being such a good guy and all. And he had a career in LE, dontchaknow?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I was surprised, too, because when my daughter was little, rear-facing seats were only for infants under 20 lbs.

However, had the safety recommendations been what they are now, I would have heeded them and kept my child in a rear-facing seat, even though she has always been in the 95th percentile for height. Apparently, Europeans have been placing older toddlers/preschoolers in rear-facing seats for some time.

I guess I might find something "weird", but my child's safety comes first. Heck, I remember playing with my sister in the back of our station wagon, not buckled in at ALL, on long road trips, when I was 3 or 4.

But we just didn't know better then. Now, we do.

I know...it's a wonder we're all still alive when you consider how lax safety precautions were back in the day!!

But, what I meant about weird wasn't about rear-facing for a longer period of time (I was happy to make that accommodation for as long as possible)---I just think it's weird that a child whose head extended over the back of the seat was able to position his legs in that car seat. The seat I had was set up to accommodate up to 35-lbs. rear facing, but my son was getting uncomfortable much, much sooner. I was also fearful that if we were to get hit from behind or from the side that his legs might get severely injured from being wedged in that tight area. Not to mention, when those seats are too small, how the heck long does it take to get the child buckled in? When mine first puts a coat on in the fall, I can't even get the buckles buckled without loosening them--once you reach the end of the strap, how can you possibly get the buckle buckled? I think this whole car seat issue is mind boggling.

 

[EvilSoup]

I know...it's a wonder we're all still alive when you consider how lax safety precautions were back in the day!!

But, what I meant about weird wasn't about rear-facing for a longer period of time (I was happy to make that accommodation for as long as possible)---I just think it's weird that a child whose head extended over the back of the seat was able to position his legs in that car seat. The seat I had was set up to accommodate up to 35-lbs. rear facing, but my son was getting uncomfortable much, much sooner. I was also fearful that if we were to get hit from behind or from the side that his legs might get severely injured from being wedged in that tight area. Not to mention, when those seats are too small, how the heck long does it take to get the child buckled in? When mine first puts a coat on in the fall, I can't even get the buckles buckled without loosening them--once you reach the end of the strap, how can you possibly get the buckle buckled? I think this whole car seat issue is mind boggling.

On these issues, I am equally confounded. I will defer to those parents who currently have small children.

I honestly cannot imagine my active 20-month-old, who was almost 35 inches tall, being comfy in a SUITABLE rear-facing seat, much less a too-small seat with straps set too low.

And I hear you on the coat thing. We live in the south, so cold wasn't a huge concern, but often on snowy or frosty mornings, I would just warm the car, buckle in the child and toss her coat over her like a blanket until we got where we were going. Then the coat would go on.

ITA, strapping a layered, bundled, toddler into a carseat is a walk on the wild side! Also, the idea of it provokes my mild sense of claustrophobia and makes me want to run around nekkid. And really, NOBODY. wants to see THAT. :notgood:

 

[Oblio]

I know...it's a wonder we're all still alive when you consider how lax safety precautions were back in the day!!

But, what I meant about weird wasn't about rear-facing for a longer period of time (I was happy to make that accommodation for as long as possible)---I just think it's weird that a child whose head extended over the back of the seat was able to position his legs in that car seat. The seat I had was set up to accommodate up to 35-lbs. rear facing, but my son was getting uncomfortable much, much sooner. I was also fearful that if we were to get hit from behind or from the side that his legs might get severely injured from being wedged in that tight area. Not to mention, when those seats are too small, how the heck long does it take to get the child buckled in? When mine first puts a coat on in the fall, I can't even get the buckles buckled without loosening them--once you reach the end of the strap, how can you possibly get the buckle buckled? I think this whole car seat issue is mind boggling.

The ones who died aren't here to share their story.

About legs, well I've only read one documented case of legs breaking due to rear facing, it was a case of misuse. The parent had placed soft, long, aftermarket strap covers on the seat. The harness was too loose as a result and instead of the shoulder straps holding the the child in, it was the straps over the baby's femurs that held him in. His legs both broke, but he still survived. As they say, it's better to cast it than a casket.

About the coat, if you have to loosen the straps to get him in, then he probably shouldn't be wearing it under the harness. Jackets are soft and can compress, allowing the child to move too much in the event of an accident. Polarfleece with nylon is fine to buckle, but once you add batting or feathers or fur, it needs to come off before buckling.

 

[Oblio]

The ones who died aren't here to share their story.

And just so you don't think I say that because it has a nice ring, my great grandmother was fatally injured when her youngest(obviously unrestrained) child jerked the wheel. Miraculously, the kids all survived, but my grandfather was orphaned that day.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

The ones who died aren't here to share their story.

About legs, well I've only read one documented case of legs breaking due to rear facing, it was a case of misuse. The parent had placed soft, long, aftermarket strap covers on the seat. The harness was too loose as a result and instead of the shoulder straps holding the the child in, it was the straps over the baby's femurs that held him in. His legs both broke, but he still survived. As they say, it's better to cast it than a casket.

About the coat, if you have to loosen the straps to get him in, then he probably shouldn't be wearing it under the harness. Jackets are soft and can compress, allowing the child to move too much in the event of an accident. Polarfleece with nylon is fine to buckle, but once you add batting or feathers or fur, it needs to come off before buckling.

Yes, it's a common misconception about legs breaking. And honestly, even if there was truth to it, I'd still much prefer a broken leg over neck injuries.

And yes, bulky winter coats are a no no under the straps! We live in the north and it's quite chilly here. We buckle our youngest in and then hand her a blanket.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

And just so you don't think I say that because it has a nice ring, my great grandmother was fatally injured when her youngest(obviously unrestrained) child jerked the wheel. Miraculously, the kids all survived, but my grandfather was orphaned that day.

That's so terrible. I agree though, there's a reason we have the safety laws/regulations we do now, and it's because lives were lost.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

About the coat, if you have to loosen the straps to get him in, then he probably shouldn't be wearing it under the harness. Jackets are soft and can compress, allowing the child to move too much in the event of an accident. Polarfleece with nylon is fine to buckle, but once you add batting or feathers or fur, it needs to come off before buckling.

I just heard about the coat issue this past year, but to be honest, I feel very comfortable with the arrangement we have--it's a very snug fit (but not too). I guess he wears the right kind of coat because I wasn't able to see how the fit would be any different without it once the straps were loosened. I'm super cautious--to the point of being teased on occasion. (lol!).

Maybe my boy was more sensitive to being "squashed" in the rear-facing earlier than others because of sensory issues, which wouldn't be far-fetched for him. I didn't turn him around until he was three, so we held out pretty long.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

And just so you don't think I say that because it has a nice ring, my great grandmother was fatally injured when her youngest(obviously unrestrained) child jerked the wheel. Miraculously, the kids all survived, but my grandfather was orphaned that day.

Sorry to hear...

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

So, am I understanding that Cooper's car seat fit may not have been as out of whack as first thought? He may have been a little too big for it, but the seat could work in a pinch, as long as he was able to be buckled in? What's the downside of having the head extend a little above the 1" rule?

 

[DeDee]

It's bizarre that they didn't buy 2 forward facing car seats since they switched off on pick ups and drop offs. It makes absolutely no sense with their combined incomes.

On the other hand, if this was premeditated it would have been a lot more believable if they bought a larger convertible car seat. (ETA: believable that RH didn't know Cooper was in the car.) Cooper would have been rear facing, and completely invisible to the driver (no head sticking up).

Unless this was only planned by RH, and LH was the one who chose and bought the new car seat. Or if this was planned less than 6 weeks before Cooper's death (in the time between buying the new seat and Cooper's death).

IMHO, this child's death was planned no later than May. As June approached, RH searched hot car deaths and how hot it needed to be, watched the videos about people dying, and viewed the veterinarian's video twice about temps inside of hot cars. LH searched hot car deaths, too. I believe it is the reason for only one new seat being purchased. Nice carseats run around $300 to $400. That's money that they decided not to waste. imoo

Leanna Harris, the mother of a Georgia toddler who died locked in a hot car, has told authorities that she researched such deaths and how they occur, according to a police affidavit. http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/29/justice/georgia-toddler-death/index.html

If this was premeditated, RH sure didn't put much thought into it, and honestly, did little to nothing to cover tracks.

Stoddard testified that RH cleared much of his internet trail of activities. We've visited RH's sites to see for ourselves that they were wiped out. I think RH put a lot of thought toward this event. He thought there would be sympathy. And there was. He thought there would be a monetary fund established. And it was.

What RH did not anticipate was that his iPhone would be taken from him at the scene. Nor did he anticipate being arrested at the scene.

This may have been a different case if RH had "discovered" his baby at lunch instead of waiting another four hours to do so but, I believe that he "dreaded how he would look".

MOO and all that jazz

 

[Hippiemomof5]

I just heard about the coat issue this past year, but to be honest, I feel very comfortable with the arrangement we have--it's a very snug fit (but not too). I guess he wears the right kind of coat because I wasn't able to see how the fit would be any different without it once the straps were loosened. I'm super cautious--to the point of being teased on occasion. (lol!).

Maybe my boy was more sensitive to being "squashed" in the rear-facing earlier than others because of sensory issues, which wouldn't be far-fetched for him. I didn't turn him around until he was three, so we held out pretty long.

Yeah, fleece coats are great, lands end and ll bean have great options for the super warm fleece without the thickness. And three is fantastic! Most of the people in my area don't even follow the one year rule, let alone the new two year rule! My four year old is my longest rear facing, we turned the others for various reasons, but never complaints on their part. One outgrew his seat height wise (he had less than an inch above his head) and my husband was out of a job so we decided to turn him instead of spend money we didn't really have at the time to keep him rear facing longer. The others all turned because of convenience mostly for us, having kids so close in age (we have three in three years in the middle of 18 and 4 year olds), it just got very difficult having to buckle rear facing children in the third row of a mini van. And since they were past the two years (which I don't even think was recommended then, it was still one year), we turned them.

 

[CHERIE.T]

IMHO, this child's death was planned no later than May. As June approached, RH searched hot car deaths and how hot it needed to be, watched the videos about people dying, and viewed the veterinarian's video twice about temps inside of hot cars.

MOO and all that jazz

respectfully snipped for space

Agree with your above comment. Imo the crime was planned and the particular car seat used was used purposefully.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I should be packing for vacation, we leave in 24 hours, and here I am digging through my photobucket looking for car seat pics! Haha!

I found one of my youngest in her seat when she's about CH's age, her seat is more reclined here. She often sat criss cross in the seat as she is here, and even at four (she just turned four July 6), she sits this way often, but sits with her legs up like in the last photo, or thrown over the sides of her seats on occasion, or straight up with her feet on the headrest.

aweee precious little one!
thanks for the picture HM :loveyou:

 

[Oblio]

Whiplash or no shielding from other objects in the car. And to be clear, the way one inch is measured, there is several inches of visible head above the back of the seat because of the angle of the seat.

 

[tlcya]

So, am I understanding that Cooper's car seat fit may not have been as out of whack as first thought? He may have been a little too big for it, but the seat could work in a pinch, as long as he was able to be buckled in? What's the downside of having the head extend a little above the 1" rule?

I think the big issue is the swap two weeks prior re-placing that carseat back into the tuscon after it had been replaced by a larger more suited one for Cooper's growing body and the fact that Mr. Harris apparently went to great pains to explain to Stoddard that he knew how to properly buckle his child in, that he was extremely familiar with the carseat, its specifications, etc. and yet it turned out that despite all this apparent deep knowledge of the sat he professed having his child did not belong in that seat per the manufacturer.

In addition, the straps being placed through the lowest (infant) setting are also not in accordance with recommended settings per the manual. The one RH apparently claimed to be very familiar with.

He either lied and volunteered lots of extra info about his familiarity with the seat specs when he was in fact NOT. Or he was familiar and yet continued to use it although he knew it was not an appropriate safety seat for his child. One or the other.

It goes to Mr. Harris and establishing his pattern of lies to LE.

All Just a Moo Moo

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I think the big issue is the swap two weeks prior re-placing that carseat back into the tuscon after it had been replaced by a larger more suited one for Cooper's growing body and the fact that Mr. Harris apparently went to great pains to explain to Stoddard that he knew how to properly buckle his child in, that he was extremely familiar with the carseat, its specifications, etc. and yet it turned out that despite all this apparent deep knowledge of the sat he professed having his child did not belong in that seat per the manufacturer.

In addition, the straps being placed through the lowest (infant) setting are also not in accordance with recommended settings per the manual. The one RH apparently claimed to be very familiar with.

He either lied and volunteered lots of extra info about his familiarity with the seat specs when he was in fact NOT. Or he was familiar and yet continued to use it although he knew it was not an appropriate safety seat for his child. One or the other.

It goes to Mr. Harris and establishing his pattern of lies to LE.

All Just a Moo Moo

Hmmm....You know I have my own theory about the carseat....but we don't need to go into that again.

Yes, there seem to be a lot of lies needing explanations; it will be easier to judge those when everything is put into context. I'm sure upon discovering what had happened, he was having a hard time keeping his wits about him. Or maybe he is a chronic liar...some people lie without there even being a reason to lie--I know at least a couple of people like that. It'll be interesting to hear details around a lot of things RH did and said.

 

[annahanna]

So, am I understanding that Cooper's car seat fit may not have been as out of whack as first thought? He may have been a little too big for it, but the seat could work in a pinch, as long as he was able to be buckled in? What's the downside of having the head extend a little above the 1" rule?

The risk of a child's head being above the manufacturer's design limit could be spinal cord injury resulting in possible paralysis, head injury resulting in possible brain damage, or death.

This website http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=30201 has a good visual of a child at the 1" limit - along with instructions on how to properly measure a child in a car seat. Although this is Just My Opinion, it makes sense to me that the 1" rule is used to accommodate children who grow proportionally differently from the statistical norm. (A tall child who is all legs with a short torso may fit where a shorter child who is long waisted may not.) We do not truly know Cooper's height, but I think it is safe to assume that he was at least at the 50th percentile based on the size of his parents. (He may well have been higher or lower on the charts.) a child in the 50th percentile would have exceeded the manufacturer's height limit by at least 3.75 inches. Since the height range between the 50th and 90th percentiles at that age is less then 2"' unless Cooper had unusual body proportions, he was unlikely to have fallen within the 1" rule. I believe it will be shown at trial that Cooper had not properly fit into that car seat for many months.

 

[EvilSoup]

My little one had sensory issues as well as being ADHD. Carseats alone were traumatic for her. And her fine motor was so good that by 20 months, she could unbuckle and get out of the "offending" seat and straps.

I know those rear-facing seats are deemed to be safer, but frankly, I am relieved that I did not have to cram my 99th percentile toddler who already had issues with immobile containment into a carseat that required her legs to be bent up. She would have had a fit! She is 12 now and already 5'9"!

I am all "Team Safety" but glad I did not have this additional challenge for my already challenged child back in 2003.