I don't recall the how or exactly when, but HF is dead.
Cases possibly of interest for the LISK case
- Thread starter Theforeigner
- Start date
- Status
I don't recall the how or exactly when, but HF is dead.
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
It sure gets interesting when some people change the rules for trying to prove a negative. When it doesn't suit them they change the rules.
One case I cited on another topic I said a lawyer jogged by a certain spot every morning and at the same time. The jogger, a reputable lawyer said when he jogged by on a particular morning there was no body there at the time. The Naysayer said that proves nothing because the fact the jogger saw nothing doesn't mean there wasn't something to see. In that particular case I contend 'nothing' was 'something.' But the poster had a point.
OK, LI Native seems to be upset that people are starting to take from my posts that the house buyer/his friends are the killer(s) of Gilgo Beach. OK, LIN, prove to me they didn't? MIND YOU, I have never said these people did the deed. I never even suggested they did.
What I have suggested is there is possibly another story within a story the authorities don't want us to see. That the police have much to do and they are not allowed to do it because what they have to do is going to make a lot of people uneasy.
THIS IS WHAT WE CAN REASONABLY SAY WE DO KNOW:
1. A major drug dealer with long time connections to the Oak Beach area came back from jail and bought a house @ Oak Beach for a certain sum of reported money.
2. After he was released from jail he went into the sex business.
3. He sold that house 4 years later for 4x the price he paid for it. At the time the record suggests the buyer paid 2x than what it was worth.
4. The buyer secured a mortgage of more than $300,000.00 than real estate web sites said that house was worth.
5. The buyer boasted that he was the primary fund raiser for Steve Bellone.
6. From what we know is Brewer had at least one sex party at his home. I doubt if that was only one of one.
7. 5 gals believed to be prostitutes have been found dead not far from Brewer's house
I can go on and on making a case that the home buyer and his pals are the killers - not that I am saying they are. I can make something out of nothing simply by using innuendo and telling people: How many times can you say coincidence? God knows the DA is expert in that department. It works when you want it to work; it doesn't work when you don' want it to work.
IS HF dead? I have seen evidence that he died from a heart attack a few years ago. Did I sit Shiva or see his body in the coffin? How do I prove he is dead? All I can tell you a search on the internet tells me he died. I didn't see the ME report. BTW, I am still working on finding the 2nd shooter on the Grassy Knoll.
One case I cited on another topic I said a lawyer jogged by a certain spot every morning and at the same time. The jogger, a reputable lawyer said when he jogged by on a particular morning there was no body there at the time. The Naysayer said that proves nothing because the fact the jogger saw nothing doesn't mean there wasn't something to see. In that particular case I contend 'nothing' was 'something.' But the poster had a point.
OK, LI Native seems to be upset that people are starting to take from my posts that the house buyer/his friends are the killer(s) of Gilgo Beach. OK, LIN, prove to me they didn't? MIND YOU, I have never said these people did the deed. I never even suggested they did.
What I have suggested is there is possibly another story within a story the authorities don't want us to see. That the police have much to do and they are not allowed to do it because what they have to do is going to make a lot of people uneasy.
THIS IS WHAT WE CAN REASONABLY SAY WE DO KNOW:
1. A major drug dealer with long time connections to the Oak Beach area came back from jail and bought a house @ Oak Beach for a certain sum of reported money.
2. After he was released from jail he went into the sex business.
3. He sold that house 4 years later for 4x the price he paid for it. At the time the record suggests the buyer paid 2x than what it was worth.
4. The buyer secured a mortgage of more than $300,000.00 than real estate web sites said that house was worth.
5. The buyer boasted that he was the primary fund raiser for Steve Bellone.
6. From what we know is Brewer had at least one sex party at his home. I doubt if that was only one of one.
7. 5 gals believed to be prostitutes have been found dead not far from Brewer's house
I can go on and on making a case that the home buyer and his pals are the killers - not that I am saying they are. I can make something out of nothing simply by using innuendo and telling people: How many times can you say coincidence? God knows the DA is expert in that department. It works when you want it to work; it doesn't work when you don' want it to work.
IS HF dead? I have seen evidence that he died from a heart attack a few years ago. Did I sit Shiva or see his body in the coffin? How do I prove he is dead? All I can tell you a search on the internet tells me he died. I didn't see the ME report. BTW, I am still working on finding the 2nd shooter on the Grassy Knoll.
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
TRYING TO PROVE A NEGATIVE: When someone doesn't want to believe a negative it is near impossible to make them believe the obvious truth.
Some classic examples I have become aware of:
A jail house snitch gives information that two co-defendants told him while they were together at Riker's Island they killed two men in a botched robbery.
1. This was a high profile case. In such cases the co-defendants, are by a matter of policy will never occupy the same place. Great pains will be made to ensure they don't. If they are in the yard at the same time those defendants will be in different yards separated by a chain link fence. There is a correction officer stationed to see this doesn't happen. The prisoners in one yard cannot speak to a prisoner in the other yard.
2. Riker's Island records clearly show these defendants were not ever together, much less speak to a third party ( snitch) while being together.
3. The snitch had his cell examined and when the officers searched the cell found numerous newspaper accounts of the crime the two other inmates allegedly did. It strongly suggests the snitch took from the papers and converted this information for his own use, i.e., look for a deal to reduce his sentence. The information in the papers was not accurate as to the facts. That was the information that was passed on to the DA. The judge did not allow that into evidence.
4. When this information was passed to one of the defendant's lawyers for an appeal, the lawyer, a strong advocate for his client's innocence told me there was NO way to prove these three men weren't together to have this conversation.
5. Despite the fact one of the defendant's own lawyer resists the obvious truth means nothing.
6. The snitch was in this country at that time for 17 years. He spent 15 1/2 of those years in prison for violent crimes. When he was cut loose by the DA for his 'truthful' testimony by extraordinary efforts by the DA, he went and did two other major armed robberies that we know of, and then went and killed a bank manager while trying to kidnap him and take him to the bank when he went back the next day to open that bank.
7. Despite the fact several correction officers have told me that in such a case the inmates would never be allowed to speak to each other and despite the fact it is protocol, and despite the fact the records of the prison show these two people were never together, means nothing when trying to prove a negative.
Some classic examples I have become aware of:
A jail house snitch gives information that two co-defendants told him while they were together at Riker's Island they killed two men in a botched robbery.
1. This was a high profile case. In such cases the co-defendants, are by a matter of policy will never occupy the same place. Great pains will be made to ensure they don't. If they are in the yard at the same time those defendants will be in different yards separated by a chain link fence. There is a correction officer stationed to see this doesn't happen. The prisoners in one yard cannot speak to a prisoner in the other yard.
2. Riker's Island records clearly show these defendants were not ever together, much less speak to a third party ( snitch) while being together.
3. The snitch had his cell examined and when the officers searched the cell found numerous newspaper accounts of the crime the two other inmates allegedly did. It strongly suggests the snitch took from the papers and converted this information for his own use, i.e., look for a deal to reduce his sentence. The information in the papers was not accurate as to the facts. That was the information that was passed on to the DA. The judge did not allow that into evidence.
4. When this information was passed to one of the defendant's lawyers for an appeal, the lawyer, a strong advocate for his client's innocence told me there was NO way to prove these three men weren't together to have this conversation.
5. Despite the fact one of the defendant's own lawyer resists the obvious truth means nothing.
6. The snitch was in this country at that time for 17 years. He spent 15 1/2 of those years in prison for violent crimes. When he was cut loose by the DA for his 'truthful' testimony by extraordinary efforts by the DA, he went and did two other major armed robberies that we know of, and then went and killed a bank manager while trying to kidnap him and take him to the bank when he went back the next day to open that bank.
7. Despite the fact several correction officers have told me that in such a case the inmates would never be allowed to speak to each other and despite the fact it is protocol, and despite the fact the records of the prison show these two people were never together, means nothing when trying to prove a negative.
I've found the internet real estate sites to be off in homes actual value and in times of a real estate frenzy especially for water or beach properties there can be tremendous jumps in price in very short periods of time. Something else to consider is the condition of the property, was the property improved during the time it was owned before being sold?
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
Of course I considered improvements. I am sure by now that 'explanation' is on the table as we speak. I also considered the boom in the price of homes that was mostly due from the mortgage scams. That may have been the reason they pulled off this con job because no one might notice. Sorry, but I think they ran out of b.s. on this one.
LINative13
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,366
- Reaction score
- 47
hawk,
you are so encouragable.
you are so encouragable.
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
Improved since purchased? I can only make these observations as I don't know what it looked like before it was last bought and what it was like when HF bought it. I can tell you I did go there to see the house for myself, and IMO, this is not the way you treat a piece of property you paid $825,000.00 for.
The other thing I can tell you is more than 10 years have passed since the property was allegedly sold to the official for the 825K and on a trusted web site the house is only worth $585,000.00.
The laughable thing about this is the purchaser is so supposed to be a sharp guy that supposedly has the ability to find great financial opportunities for the Town of Babylon, and now the entire Suffolk County - if he gets the job.
All he seems to do is to find opportunities to give businesses tax breaks and saving them millions of dollars. The question that remains is: How much money goes back to the politicians. Does anyone out there believe for one second that when a politician gives money to a business there is nothing kicked back in return?
Do you really think a man such as this is qualified to take on the job of Suffolk IDA Chairman? Spin that one around in your head for a bit and tell me what you think.
The other thing I can tell you is more than 10 years have passed since the property was allegedly sold to the official for the 825K and on a trusted web site the house is only worth $585,000.00.
The laughable thing about this is the purchaser is so supposed to be a sharp guy that supposedly has the ability to find great financial opportunities for the Town of Babylon, and now the entire Suffolk County - if he gets the job.
All he seems to do is to find opportunities to give businesses tax breaks and saving them millions of dollars. The question that remains is: How much money goes back to the politicians. Does anyone out there believe for one second that when a politician gives money to a business there is nothing kicked back in return?
Do you really think a man such as this is qualified to take on the job of Suffolk IDA Chairman? Spin that one around in your head for a bit and tell me what you think.
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
If my Town Supervisor gave me a tax incentive of a substantial amount of money I would be more than happy to make sure a substantial portion when back to the Supervisor, in one form or another. IT STINKS and it should be stopped. People are leaving Long Island faster than ever. They leave because of the high taxes. Nobody seems to care if they stay or not.
hawkshaw
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,729
- Reaction score
- 2,110
PROVING A NEGATIVE:
I LOOKED at a case where a witness gave very clear testimony as to exactly where he was standing and viewing an attempted armed robbery that ended with two murders. We knew exactly where he was standing. He was 450 feet away, in the dark or 20 minutes before sunrise.
.
There were problems with his being able to view the incident: 1. There just happened to be a building in his way. 2. It was 450 away and it was dark. 3. It was scientifically impossible for him to see what he said he saw. 4. He said he saw two men standing at the curb firing bullets into two business men opening up the gate on the store. 5. The shooter used an automatic. No shell casings were found at the curb. 6. The alleged shooter said he had a .380 automatic. 7. There were only 4 9MM shell casings found at the scene and they were IN THE STORE.
The lawyer for the defendant appealed that portion of the testimony and moved the defendant received 'ineffective counsel" The lawyer gave a reply to the motion and actually said HOW do we know the witness didn't step away from the place he testified to and go out to the curb to see what he said he saw. There was no testimony to that effect, but the defendant's own lawyer said, how do we know that didn't happen.
SO how do you prove the witness didn't see what he said he saw? Well, you offer scientific evidence that it was impossible by getting an expert in recognition situations to spell it out for a dunce to understand. The easier way to do this and spare the expense of retaining an foremost expert in the matter is to have the jury to go to the site and SEE FOR THEMSELVES.
You see, the problem of proving a negative is difficult in and of itself, but when you have a judge, several judges, I might add that don't want to see the truth then it is condition hopeless.
I LOOKED at a case where a witness gave very clear testimony as to exactly where he was standing and viewing an attempted armed robbery that ended with two murders. We knew exactly where he was standing. He was 450 feet away, in the dark or 20 minutes before sunrise.
.
There were problems with his being able to view the incident: 1. There just happened to be a building in his way. 2. It was 450 away and it was dark. 3. It was scientifically impossible for him to see what he said he saw. 4. He said he saw two men standing at the curb firing bullets into two business men opening up the gate on the store. 5. The shooter used an automatic. No shell casings were found at the curb. 6. The alleged shooter said he had a .380 automatic. 7. There were only 4 9MM shell casings found at the scene and they were IN THE STORE.
The lawyer for the defendant appealed that portion of the testimony and moved the defendant received 'ineffective counsel" The lawyer gave a reply to the motion and actually said HOW do we know the witness didn't step away from the place he testified to and go out to the curb to see what he said he saw. There was no testimony to that effect, but the defendant's own lawyer said, how do we know that didn't happen.
SO how do you prove the witness didn't see what he said he saw? Well, you offer scientific evidence that it was impossible by getting an expert in recognition situations to spell it out for a dunce to understand. The easier way to do this and spare the expense of retaining an foremost expert in the matter is to have the jury to go to the site and SEE FOR THEMSELVES.
You see, the problem of proving a negative is difficult in and of itself, but when you have a judge, several judges, I might add that don't want to see the truth then it is condition hopeless.
minazoe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 6,730
- Reaction score
- 19,498
We have an unsolved case here, a woman named vannessa rojakovich, found in the chicago river, asphyxiated, and wrapped in plastic...absolutely next to zero press...http://articles.chicagobreakingnews...ver-grand-central-area-detectives-age-or-race
I saw this recently on WS in the missing/located forum and posted it in the main serial killer thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-and-possibly-earlier&p=11025212#post11025212 have not had a chance to compare dates/victims/locations but three of the women went missing from CT in 2003. Probably not related to the LI or NJ murders but thought it might be worth digging into a bit anyway.
Edited to add: the other two women who were killed were the Honsch mother/daughter so not related- just a very weird coincidence that the father dumped the body of his daughter in behind the exact same small shopping plaza 8 that a serial killer would choose as his dumping ground or so years later. I guess if nothing else, it makes me more apt to believe that Manorville/LI/LISK/Gilbert/Bittrolff could all be connected only by chance and not design as well.
Edited to add: the other two women who were killed were the Honsch mother/daughter so not related- just a very weird coincidence that the father dumped the body of his daughter in behind the exact same small shopping plaza 8 that a serial killer would choose as his dumping ground or so years later. I guess if nothing else, it makes me more apt to believe that Manorville/LI/LISK/Gilbert/Bittrolff could all be connected only by chance and not design as well.
LindsayLohan6
Former Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 1,661
- Reaction score
- 158
http://pix11.com/2014/10/12/man-arr...at-flaming-saddles-bar-police/comment-page-1/
We should look into this guy. We guy know LISK targets males and we know LISK frequents 9th avenue. Here's a rapist whose in a gay bar looking to attack females. And he has dreads like the man who robbed maureen. And he lives in manhattan.
We should look into this guy. We guy know LISK targets males and we know LISK frequents 9th avenue. Here's a rapist whose in a gay bar looking to attack females. And he has dreads like the man who robbed maureen. And he lives in manhattan.
LindsayLohan6
Former Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2013
- Messages
- 1,661
- Reaction score
- 158
Another young girl murdered on Long Island. Maggie Rosales was only 18 and was found murdered in the same town as Sarah Strobel, Huntington. http://7online.com/news/li-residents-rally-against-violence-in-walk-for-stabbed-teen/359805/
Why do some people make the world such a dark violent place?
Why do some people make the world such a dark violent place?
This must be true.
Justiceforever
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2012
- Messages
- 2,804
- Reaction score
- 48
I'm just going to leave this here and let you all have at it!
http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/mom-beheaded-by-son-was-beloved-professor/
Patricia Ward, 66 — a 28-year veteran faculty member who taught language arts at the college — was decapitated by Derek Ward, 35, who lived with her, police sources said. Derek Ward , who has a criminal record including gun charges, allegedly hacked her head off with a knife and kicked it across the street before throwing himself in front of a LIRR train, said Detective Lieutenant John Azzata of Nassau homicide.
ETA: In 2006, he was charged with possession of Smith and Wesson gun and 100 Valium pills and received 45 days in jail, police sources said.
http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/mom-beheaded-by-son-was-beloved-professor/
Patricia Ward, 66 — a 28-year veteran faculty member who taught language arts at the college — was decapitated by Derek Ward, 35, who lived with her, police sources said. Derek Ward , who has a criminal record including gun charges, allegedly hacked her head off with a knife and kicked it across the street before throwing himself in front of a LIRR train, said Detective Lieutenant John Azzata of Nassau homicide.
ETA: In 2006, he was charged with possession of Smith and Wesson gun and 100 Valium pills and received 45 days in jail, police sources said.
Justiceforever
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2012
- Messages
- 2,804
- Reaction score
- 48
“I literally thought it was a prank,” one witness told WCBS 880’s Mike Xirinachs. “We saw the body on one side and saw the head on the other side. I thought everything was a prank.”
About 25 minutes after the slaying, Metropolitan Transportation Authority police got a call that a LIRR train from Penn Station headed to Ronkonkoma struck and killed a man just west of Clinton Street.
The tracks are about 1,000 feet away from where Ward’s body was found. Passengers said they were stuck on the train for hours as police processed the scene.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10...-womans-murder-train-fatality-in-farmingdale/
About 25 minutes after the slaying, Metropolitan Transportation Authority police got a call that a LIRR train from Penn Station headed to Ronkonkoma struck and killed a man just west of Clinton Street.
The tracks are about 1,000 feet away from where Ward’s body was found. Passengers said they were stuck on the train for hours as police processed the scene.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10...-womans-murder-train-fatality-in-farmingdale/
Theforeigner
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,838
- Reaction score
- 1,052
I wonder if this man, Iver J. Phallen 67 years old, had any connections to Long Island / NYC ?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...idnap-torture-of-woman-LE-seeks-other-victims
NY - Iver Phallen charged in kidnap, torture of woman, LE seeks other victims
Quotes from several different newsreports:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...idnap-torture-of-woman-LE-seeks-other-victims
NY - Iver Phallen charged in kidnap, torture of woman, LE seeks other victims
Quotes from several different newsreports:
mysteryattic
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2014
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 8
No way of knowing if he is connected but he certainly sounds like the type of predator that I have managed the lisk to be. Isn't it weird all the connections to Florida?
topratedsleuth
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2014
- Messages
- 167
- Reaction score
- 8
A NY Post primer from a writer who hasn't covered the story there before:
http://nypost.com/2015/01/03/4-years-17-victims-later-police-cant-catch-the-gilgo-beach-killer/
Among the highlights-
The LISK investigation is stalled, and police hope the public leads them to a tip.
Bittrolff is ruled out.
Melissa Barthelmy was discovered "in a crumbling burlap sack".
Police are "fairly certain" that LISK buried or stored bodies for a period of time before dumping them.
The source for some of the information in the story came from an unidentified State Police officer who is not working on the case but who had access to the information.
http://nypost.com/2015/01/03/4-years-17-victims-later-police-cant-catch-the-gilgo-beach-killer/
Among the highlights-
The LISK investigation is stalled, and police hope the public leads them to a tip.
Bittrolff is ruled out.
Melissa Barthelmy was discovered "in a crumbling burlap sack".
Police are "fairly certain" that LISK buried or stored bodies for a period of time before dumping them.
The source for some of the information in the story came from an unidentified State Police officer who is not working on the case but who had access to the information.
Emre E
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2012
- Messages
- 668
- Reaction score
- 97
Never heard of that
Hackett claims he gave Gilbert medicine to calm her down and tried to reach her family to get help but no one came and she ran off.
- Status