Cause of Death - Charles and Braden Powell **Warning-Graphic Thread**

[annalia]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The only think I can think of is that they were able to determine COD by the chemicals in their lungs. I don't know if a body would need to be completely intact to determine that though, or if they could still determine it from what was remained but not intact. If they had died from the blows from the hatchet their bodies wouldn't have taken in the lethal amounts to cause smoke inhalation. Like how they can tell if a person really drowned or had been murdered elsewhere by the water in the lungs.

I don't know if that makes sense.

 

[jjenny]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The only think I can think of is that they were able to determine COD by the chemicals in their lungs. I don't know if a body would need to be completely intact to determine that though, or if they could still determine it from what was remained but not intact. If they had died from the blows from the hatchet their bodies wouldn't have taken in the lethal amounts to cause smoke inhalation. Like how they can tell if a person really drowned or had been murdered elsewhere by the water in the lungs.

I don't know if that makes sense.

Yes, they do it by analysis of lungs and breathing apparatus. If they are dead prior to the fire they would not inhale carbon monoxide because they are not breathing. But clearly the bodies have to be at least somewhat intact for the coroner to be able to make that analysis.

 

[CHERIE.T]

The house didn't "blow up." He burned it down using gasoline. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death for someone who dies in a fire.

"The characteristic biphasic distribution of carboxyhemoglobin in fire victims together with other observations suggest that the principal causes of death are carbon monoxide followed by carbon dioxide poisoning and/or oxygen deficiency, while the influence of heat is considered to be of minor importance."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The first reports stated much the same.

Fatal EXPLOSION rips through home of Josh Powell.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/02/josh-powell-explosion-fire-killed-boys.html

 

[scrabble]

He always looked disturbed to me. My heart goes out to Susan Powell's parents and family, and I believe God is now looking after and holding the boys close, along with their Mother, Susan Powell.

 

[Magdalyn]

How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

Well, from what I understand about cremation, I think it takes a 100 lb human body an hour of sustained 1600-1800 F temps to disintegrate into ash. If the boys were half that weight, it would take about 30 minutes of sustained 1600-1800 F temps directly on the bodies (and enclosed like a cremation furnace), I'd guess. Though remaining parts of the house burned for a while, I'm thinking with the roof and windows gone quickly, and the gas soaked carpets 'up in smoke' almost instantly, none of the bodies were kept at an enclosed, constant 1600-1800 degrees F for 30 minutes to an hour. (Meaning the walls and wood framing of the house may have continued burning around them, but the bodies may not have continued to burn as they were not actively 'on fire' and they were in the 'center', flames around them but not on them.)

I actually think it's difficult to keep a human body on fire (to the point of nothing being 'intact') considering the water content. So I'm guessing they were likely (sorry sweet babies) charred, externally, but otherwise 'intact'.

All this is laptop researcher opinion and speculation on my part.

 

[Storm]

Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

The point is that the court ordered visitation at the home...who supervised the visit is irrelevant...it was court ordered. The social worker was simply paid
to follow the court orders and should in no way be blamed. If we need to blame someone...let's first blame Josh..he chose to kill..if we think the judge made the wrong decision..let's let him know...but I strongly believe the person who took the boys is absolutely innocent in all of this. ^i^

 

[Indy Anna]

So I am trying to figure out the timeline. When did he make phone calls and send all e-mails in relation to children arriving at his house? He had to realize that if sends e-mails to so many people at least some could call 911.
His plan would could have been ruined.

I still have to wonder if Josh knew family members would be out when he placed the telephone call because they apparently weren't home then and so he left the voice mail. As you've said, jjenny, 20 minutes gives plenty of time to notify authorities that there would have been sufficient time to thwart Josh's plans before the boys even arrived. I wonder how much time elapsed between the brother LISTENING to the voice mail and the children arriving at Josh's house.

Maybe his brother's family typically dined out on Sunday after church, or had scheduled lunch with some friends. It's more likely that it was an established pattern which Josh was familiar with - either way, I think Josh knew. It's the only explanation I can think of.

The emails would be easy enough to store in the outbox until the last minute. Powell's lawyer didn't see the email sent him until 2 hours after he received it at 12:05 (I think that would actually be the time it was sent, correct?). The first 911 call was received at 12:13. If anyone happened to see the email at 12:05, they would still have 8 minutes to call 911, but sometimes the time stamp on emails is off, so there may have been even less time - and, again, someone would have had to read at the very moment it hit the inbox.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017434073_powell06m.html
~snipped~

The Associated Press reported that Josh Powell's lawyer received an email from him shortly before Sunday's fire, saying: "I'm sorry, goodbye."

Attorney Jeffrey Bassett said the email arrived at 12:05 p.m. Sunday, but he didn't see it until two hours later, when others informed him of the fire. He says he knew Powell was upset after a judge last week ordered him to undergo a psychosexual evaluation, but he didn't see this coming.

Troyer said email and text messages from Powell's account were sent to a number of people, whom he didn't identify. He said investigators had no reason to doubt that Powell wrote them.

 

[beach]

Thread topic:

Cause of Death-Charles and Braden Powell. **Warning-Graphic Thread**

Please bump the correct topical thread or generate a new one to discuss the emails or timelines. Neither one has any relevance regarding the discussion of the CODs of Charlie and Braden.

:tyou:

:bump:

 

[elfie]

Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?

I'm guessing that he didn't want anyone to interfere with his plan had they received the emails in time, so he wasn't letting on to the full extent, by implying that the utilities would be intact in order to have them turned off.

 

[Pensfan]

How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

Add to this the statement that the bodies were not recovered until 5:30 when the huge fire was completely burned out.

 

[wallflower67]

I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?


I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

Some states contract with private companies to do home evals and visitations. Currently, I have a family members who are getting supervised visits with their kids, and the visit worker comes to their home with the children (brings them from the foster home). They do have visits on weekends. I think it's at the supervisor's convenience and schedule. Our state, Nebraska, has privatized social services/CPS.

 

[jjenny]

I'm guessing that he didn't want anyone to interfere with his plan had they received the emails in time, so he wasn't letting on to the full extent, by implying that the utilities would be intact in order to have them turned off.

I really doubt it considering his messages were clear enough for his relatives to call 911 after they got them.

 

[believe09]

Let's stick to the COD topic. I am pretty certain we have a timeline thread we can bump...BRB.

 

[believe09]

Here is a timeline thread-it contains detailed outlines of the disappearance of Susan, and can now include discussion related to the murder/suicide.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99486"]Timeline Thread Here[/ame]

 

[Paige SC]

Well, from what I understand about cremation, I think it takes a 100 lb human body an hour of sustained 1600-1800 F temps to disintegrate into ash. If the boys were half that weight, it would take about 30 minutes of sustained 1600-1800 F temps directly on the bodies (and enclosed like a cremation furnace), I'd guess. Though remaining parts of the house burned for a while, I'm thinking with the roof and windows gone quickly, and the gas soaked carpets 'up in smoke' almost instantly, none of the bodies were kept at an enclosed, constant 1600-1800 degrees F for 30 minutes to an hour. (Meaning the walls and wood framing of the house may have continued burning around them, but the bodies may not have continued to burn as they were not actively 'on fire' and they were in the 'center', flames around them but not on them.)

I actually think it's difficult to keep a human body on fire (to the point of nothing being 'intact') considering the water content. So I'm guessing they were likely (sorry sweet babies) charred, externally, but otherwise 'intact'.

All this is laptop researcher opinion and speculation on my part.

Still yet, the bodies weren't recovered until the house had *completely* burned and even if the tissue from the lungs survived the billowing flames, how did the external skin survive it? (re: the injuries inflicted from the hatchet.) Unless of course, determination was made by markings on the skeleton/skull. And if that were the case, one would think smoke inhalation would be a non issue.

 

[elfie]

House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

 

[Paige SC]

Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

Not sure. The radio report (I posted a link in the thread) from the CPS Director states the case worker beat on the door, then the windows (not sure what she thought that was going to do, especially after detecting the smell of gasoline AND being locked out of the home but whatever), then she went to her car where she had left her phone (another puzzling detail for me) and then called her supervisor (another great big question mark) who then called 911.

 

[jjenny]

Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

Based on the scanner results, I'd guess neither. My guess right now it was a neighbor who saw the fire.
My reasoning is as follows: at first they did not know what caused the fire and if anyone was inside. They thought it might have been a meth house. If either the cousin or the supervisor made the first 911 call then they would have known that there were people inside, etc.

 

[tlcya]

I genuinely thought I was ready to participate in this thread. I was mistaken.

 

[elfie]

Have the complete autopsy results been released along with positive identification?