Chris Hyndman of Steven and Chris has died

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While I have no horse in this race -- I think that the boys were charming, but their program is not my choice of program -- I do think that if it were suicide, it would be a shame to deny it. But that's just because my own bias is to try to prevent suicides in the future. Some of you may not care, and that's your privilege. I just think that the more people know about suicide, and its alternatives, the greater the chance of people choosing life instead.

That's how I feel too. It would be a shame to cover it up as if it were something to be ashamed of, or something to be kept a secret. I can understand his loved ones wanting to do that, of course, but if it were suicide I think they would get a lot of support and compassion. And I agree - the more people know about suicide risks, alternatives, and treatments the greater chance people of people being helped.
 
Not related exactly, but ...

http://www.cp24.com/news/video-show...ne-of-fall-from-sixth-floor-balcony-1.2525150

" Surveillance video obtained by CP24 shows a man carrying a woman away from the scene after she fell from the sixth-floor balcony of a building near Downsview Station early Thursday morning.

The 30-year-old woman fell from the balcony of an apartment on De Boers Drive near Sheppard Avenue and Allen Road at around 2:30 a.m., landing on a glass sheet awning that extended from the building.

At first emergency crews could not locate the woman; however they eventually found her in her apartment".
 
That's how I feel too. It would be a shame to cover it up as if it were something to be ashamed of, or something to be kept a secret. I can understand his loved ones wanting to do that, of course, but if it were suicide I think they would get a lot of support and compassion. And I agree - the more people know about suicide risks, alternatives, and treatments the greater chance people of people being helped.

I joined Websleuths to comment on this. The death of Chris Hyndman was a big shock here in Toronto. I find myself in the uncomfortable position of being able to comment on the two different possibilities, suicide or misadventure while sleepwalking.

It is true that, in the past, being not straight in much of Canada is especially hard for young people. I was lucky enough, I suppose, but those experiences--the feeling of being isolated, the pervasive sense of threat and despair--can stay with people even after things have gotten better. I don't know Hyndman, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case even with his happy life. Who knows what demons may have haunted him?

It's also true that sleepwalkers can do remarkable things. I have been diagnosed in the past with significant sleep issues, frequent wakings and periods of apnea and even sleepwalking. I have no recall of everything that I may have done, but I do dimly remember one episode when I got out of my then-partner's bed, walked over to the kitchen, and urinated in the kitchen garbage. It should go without saying that this is something that I never do in my right mind. At the time, as I walked, I felt as if I was experiencing some kind of dream. In retrospect, it is terrifying.

We know that Hyndman had serious issues with sleepwalking, and sleep. If his mother's testimony is not enough, he himself spoke to the Toronto Star in 2007 or 2008 about his serious sleep issues. It does not seem at all implausible to me that, sleepwalking, Hyndman may have walked off his condo balcony as readily as any dreamer might do anything bizarre in a dream. (If that is the case, I hope he did not wake up on the way down.)

In the end, we can know nothing. I can't think offhand of any way to distinguish between an intentional suicide and a misadventure while sleepwalking. All that we can say for certain is that a man died prematurely, and that we are all the lesser for his departure.
 
I joined Websleuths to comment on this. The death of Chris Hyndman was a big shock here in Toronto. I find myself in the uncomfortable position of being able to comment on the two different possibilities, suicide or misadventure while sleepwalking.

It is true that, in the past, being not straight in much of Canada is especially hard for young people. I was lucky enough, I suppose, but those experiences--the feeling of being isolated, the pervasive sense of threat and despair--can stay with people even after things have gotten better. I don't know Hyndman, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case even with his happy life. Who knows what demons may have haunted him?

It's also true that sleepwalkers can do remarkable things. I have been diagnosed in the past with significant sleep issues, frequent wakings and periods of apnea and even sleepwalking. I have no recall of everything that I may have done, but I do dimly remember one episode when I got out of my then-partner's bed, walked over to the kitchen, and urinated in the kitchen garbage. I should go without saying that this is something that I never do in my right mind. At the time, as I walked, I felt as if I was experiencing some kind of dream. In retrospect, it is terrifying.

We know that Hyndman had serious issues with sleepwalking, and sleep. If his mother's testimony is not enough, he himself spoke to the Toronto Star in 2007 or 2008 about his serious sleep issues. It does not seem at all implausible to me that, sleepwalking, Hyndman may have walked off his condo balcony as readily as any dreamer might do anything bizarre in a dream. (If that is the case, I hope he did not wake up on the way down.)

In the end, we can know nothing. I can't think offhand of any way to distinguish between an intentional suicide and a misadventure while sleepwalking. All that we can say for certain is that a man died prematurely, and that we are all the lesser for his departure.

Welcome to Ws. RandyMcDonald, thanks for the very insightful post!

:welcome:
 
In the end, we can know nothing. I can't think offhand of any way to distinguish between an intentional suicide and a misadventure while sleepwalking. All that we can say for certain is that a man died prematurely, and that we are all the lesser for his departure.

Agreed. Well, perhaps if there was a note, or perhaps if Chris had said some things to his inner circle. But just on the facts we have at hand, I agree totally. I don't have any reason to think it was suicide or an accident -- as I've said before, I just hope that if there is someone who knows that it was a suicide, that they are not holding back because of the stigma of suicide, as that might be a disservice to Chris and those who cared for him.
 
What if there were previous attempts? Would that make it easier for you to accept?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
What if there were previous attempts? Would that make it easier for you to accept?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lets be fair here ----> that happened many, many years ago and there's nothing to suggest otherwise. I know that is your opinion but please let others have theirs without trying to sway them into believing it was a suicide. There is simply no proof or facts to substantiate this.
 
What if there were previous attempts? Would that make it easier for you to accept?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the previous attempt was because he was young and felt pressure from coming out as gay, then I would discount it. He was obviously past that fear and that pressure. It would have no bearing on his current life.
 
If the previous attempt was because he was young and felt pressure from coming out as gay, then I would discount it. He was obviously past that fear and that pressure. It would have no bearing on his current life.

Katydid, I couldn't agree more.
 
@ andreww

When I was young, I suffered severe bouts of depression, however, I won't go into details here.

I was also a sleepwalker, and still am at 54 yrs of age. I no longer suffer with depression, nor do I take any medication for depression. When I was eight years old, we were at our cottage - one of my favourite places to be. One evening, during the middle of the night, my parents awoke to the neighbours dogs barking frantically. They got out of bed, only to discover me walking to the end of the dock. By the time they reached me, I was about to dive off the dock. I was turned around and walked back to the cottage, got back into bed - all without any recollection.

My question to you would be, had I dove off and drowned, would you think I committed suicide?

I'm not a lesbian, but I certainly see many parallels in Chris's case and my own life experiences.
 
@ andreww

When I was young, I suffered severe bouts of depression, however, I won't go into details here.

I was also a sleepwalker, and still am at 54 yrs of age. I no longer suffer with depression, nor do I take any medication for depression. When I was eight years old, we were at our cottage - one of my favourite places to be. One evening, during the middle of the night, my parents awoke to the neighbours dogs barking frantically. They got out of bed, only to discover me walking to the end of the dock. By the time they reached me, I was about to dive off the dock. I was turned around and walked back to the cottage, got back into bed - all without any recollection.

My question to you would be, had I dove off and drowned, would you think I committed suicide?

I'm not a lesbian, but I certainly see many parallels in Chris's case and my own life experiences.

Obviously not. 8-year old girls are not prone to suicide. In the case of Chris Hyndman there are many clues.
 
Lets be fair here ----> that happened many, many years ago and there's nothing to suggest otherwise. I know that is your opinion but please let others have theirs without trying to sway them into believing it was a suicide. There is simply no proof or facts to substantiate this.

"Other populations at an increased risk of suicide include youth, the elderly, inmates in correctional facilities, people with a mental illness, and those who have previously attempted suicide."

http://toronto.cmha.ca/mental_health/suicide-statistics/#.Vd4A9bxViko

IMO there isn't enough evidence and there will likely never be enough evidence for anyone not directly involved to say for certain whether or not this was a sleepwalking event or completed suicide.
 
It is discussed upthread somewhere. He had admitted to feeling suicidal when he was hiding his sexuality. I don't think that would mean he felt the same way many years later, when he is comfortably out with his partner.

I really don't think you understand what goes on with people with that kind of Problem. People deal with stress differently. Some become reclusive, some run away, some just fight on, and some contemplate ending their own life. Most people have had some sort of extreme stress in their life, and the vast majority of them don't think of suicide. Just because Chris conquered his fears of being gay, doesn't mean that he hadn't come up with another stress that would cause those suicidal thoughts to flair up again. The most common problem with people his age is simply not being able to transition in to old age gracefully. <mod snip>. The fact that he seemed to have had work done to change his appearance is another sigh of someone who is not happy in their own skin.

Sorry if you all feel cheated, but these things happen.. often.
 
"Other populations at an increased risk of suicide include youth, the elderly, inmates in correctional facilities, people with a mental illness, and those who have previously attempted suicide."

http://toronto.cmha.ca/mental_health.../#.Vd4A9bxViko

I'm well aware of this. I worked in social services for years. My response was directed at Chris, not the general populace. :wink:
 
IMO there isn't enough evidence and there will likely never be enough evidence for anyone not directly involved to say for certain whether or not this was a sleepwalking event or completed suicide.

We don't know if there is enough evidence. We haven't been told. IMO if the physical evidence, ie: in sleepwear, etc. pointed toward a sleepwalking mishap, it would have been made public [and why wouldn't family want this made public?] and this conversation would have ended weeks ago. The silence surrounding this case seems loud.
 
We don't know if there is enough evidence. We haven't been told. IMO if the physical evidence, ie: in sleepwear, etc. pointed toward a sleepwalking mishap, it would have been made public [and why wouldn't family want this made public?] and this conversation would have ended weeks ago. The silence surrounding this case seems loud.

So I'll amend my comment:

IMO most of us on this thread don't have enough evidence and we will likely never be given more. Those of us not directly involved can't say for certain whether or not this was a sleepwalking event or completed suicide.

Better?
 
Has anyone considered the possibility of life insurance policies that were held by Chris ? In many policies, no payment is made in the case of suicide. The family might want to believe that it was not suicide for financial, as well as emotional reasons. The history of sleepwalking does create reasonable doubt. I think it could have been either, and there is always the possibility that it was murder. Not much has been said about that. The police seemed quite satisfied early on that no crime had been committed. Possibly they had access to some kind of surveillance video, either at Chris' condo, or from a neighbours vantage point. I doubt that we will ever know for sure what happened.
 
I really don't think you understand what goes on with people with that kind of Problem. People deal with stress differently. Some become reclusive, some run away, some just fight on, and some contemplate ending their own life. Most people have had some sort of extreme stress in their life, and the vast majority of them don't think of suicide. Just because Chris conquered his fears of being gay, doesn't mean that he hadn't come up with another stress that would cause those suicidal thoughts to flair up again. The most common problem with people his age is simply not being able to transition in to old age gracefully. <modsnip> The fact that he seemed to have had work done to change his appearance is another sigh of someone who is not happy in their own skin.

Sorry if you all feel cheated, but these things happen.. often.

It's not a matter of feeling cheated. It's just a matter of there not being enough information to be able to distinguish between intentional suicide and misadventure by sleepwalking.

Past experiences with suicidality do not in themselves determine it. Hyndman might well have been dreaming of suicide, or something like suicide, for instance, while consciously he never would have done it. People can have problems without planning to kill themselves.

I can testify from my own experience that it can be impossible for a person prone to that kind of state of mind to distinguish between a real event and a dream. I would not have known the sleepwalking experience I described earlier happened in reality if my partner the morning after hadn't mentioned that he saw me get up and, marionette-like, do what I did. Conversely, last week I had a terrifyingly vivid dream where I had fallen under the wheels of a car and was about to get crushed, and on waking in my bed at 4 in the morning was confused as to where I was. In neither situation was I in a position to actively intervene in my dream-state consciousness: things just happened around me whether I wanted them to or not. In that state of mind, I can't tell where I am. I would expect Hyndman would be in a similar state.

We can speculate about suicide as a possibility, and equally about misadventure while sleepwalking. With Hyndman's history, including apparently a history of undertaking complex actions while in that state of mind, I'd suggest either possibility is likely. Unless we get evidence of suicide like a note, I am quite sure we won't know what happened.
 
Unless we get evidence of suicide like a note, I am quite sure we won't know what happened.

There may well have been a note and it's just not public knowledge as suicides are not reported to begin with. Speaking of notes, my understanding is only a third or so of victims even leave notes. That aside, IMO the burden of proof lies on the sleepwalking theory.
 

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