CO CO - Jaryd Atadero, 3, Comanche Peak, 2 Oct 1999

[Lue123]

This case has puzzled me for a long time but I've always felt that the mountain lion was the most probable scenario. If he was grabbed by a ml, I don't think a 3 year old would be able to fight back much and that could explain the lack of blood/disturbances in the area he was taken. I've heard a lot of people say that his shoes should of been scratched when being dragged up the mountain but if his pants were a little too long on him they could of covered the shoes until they were pulled off going over the rocks. If he was dragged, the waist of his pants could of been caught on a rock and turned inside out when he was being pulled. The only theory I can guess about the sweatshirt was maybe he had taken it off and tied around his waist because he was hot while running around.

It angers me that dogs and searchers pointed to the area that his items were eventually found but was never searched immediately after he was missing. The groups stories did seem inconsistent. I think that unfortunately they had made errors in judgement and were scared and that's why they stated different things (like Janet taking a nap but not writing that in the police report). I think it would be interesting to have them all interviewed again today. It is frustrating to me how law enforcement handled this situation and how his father was treated.

I know that there were hairs found but Allyn stated they were not from a mountain lion. Are those hairs still in evidence today?

 

[Thunder Street]

This case has puzzled me for a long time but I've always felt that the mountain lion was the most probable scenario. If he was grabbed by a ml, I don't think a 3 year old would be able to fight back much and that could explain the lack of blood/disturbances in the area he was taken. I've heard a lot of people say that his shoes should of been scratched when being dragged up the mountain but if his pants were a little too long on him they could of covered the shoes until they were pulled off going over the rocks. If he was dragged, the waist of his pants could of been caught on a rock and turned inside out when he was being pulled. The only theory I can guess about the sweatshirt was maybe he had taken it off and tied around his waist because he was hot while running around.

There would have been blood. The claws and teeth would have pierced the skin and Jaryd would have bled significantly before dying. If Jaryd was consumed by a mountain lion, there would have been blood and other fluids everywhere at the kill site. Not a single shred of Jaryd's DNA was found on the jacket. The temperature that day was rather cool, which is why Allyn dressed Jaryd in warm clothes. He wouldn't have tied it around his waist. Jaryd never left his shoes tied, he liked to wear them loose. Thus, they would not have made the trip up the mountain over such rough terrain. I've made the climb myself, and can attest.

It angers me that dogs and searchers pointed to the area that his items were eventually found but was never searched immediately after he was missing. The groups stories did seem inconsistent. I think that unfortunately they had made errors in judgement and were scared and that's why they stated different things (like Janet taking a nap but not writing that in the police report). I think it would be interesting to have them all interviewed again today. It is frustrating to me how law enforcement handled this situation and how his father was treated

The dogs hit scents at campsite #2, #3, and #4 with the strongest one at #3. The evidence was found east and slightly north of campsite #2. The way the sheriff's report states it, the scent dog hit at site #3, took his handler through the woods to site #4 and slightly up a drainage, then looped back down to the trail where the scent ended at the river. This doesn't make sense. If he fell in the river as the sheriff privately believed, how did his remains end up five hundred vertical feet above the trail at the mercy of a mountain lion?

On a side note, Jaryd also knew not to go near open water, as Allyn had taught him to stay clear of the very same Poudre River that ran through their resort property. Even if he had, there are so many shallow spots in the river where his body would have washed up.

I know that there were hairs found but Allyn stated they were not from a mountain lion. Are those hairs still in evidence today?

The hairs are still a controversy. No one knows where or what they are, and were essentially dismissed. Their color was the same as that of a deer or a lion, but the hairs belonged to neither one.

 

[Lue123]

There would have been blood. The claws and teeth would have pierced the skin and Jaryd would have bled significantly before dying. If Jaryd was consumed by a mountain lion, there would have been blood and other fluids everywhere at the kill site. Not a single shred of Jaryd's DNA was found on the jacket. The temperature that day was rather cool, which is why Allyn dressed Jaryd in warm clothes. He wouldn't have tied it around his waist. Jaryd never left his shoes tied, he liked to wear them loose. Thus, they would not have made the trip up the mountain over such rough terrain. I've made the climb myself, and can attest.



The dogs hit scents at campsite #2, #3, and #4 with the strongest one at #3. The evidence was found east and slightly north of campsite #2. The way the sheriff's report states it, the scent dog hit at site #3, took his handler through the woods to site #4 and slightly up a drainage, then looped back down to the trail where the scent ended at the river. This doesn't make sense. If he fell in the river as the sheriff privately believed, how did his remains end up five hundred vertical feet above the trail at the mercy of a mountain lion?

On a side note, Jaryd also knew not to go near open water, as Allyn had taught him to stay clear of the very same Poudre River that ran through their resort property. Even if he had, there are so many shallow spots in the river where his body would have washed up.




The hairs are still a controversy. No one knows where or what they are, and were essentially dismissed. Their color was the same as that of a deer or a lion, but the hairs belonged to neither one.

I still think it's a possible that the jacket could of been taken off. When my kids are running around outside, they will get hot and take off their jackets even when its 45- 50* ( that's cold for us where we live). I'm not sure what the temps were that day but it is a possibility.

I don't agree with the water scenario either.

There are some reasons why the shoes could of made it so far up. Have you even tried to take off a pair of pants with shoes still on and got them stuck? If his pants got caught on a rock and were rolling inside out they could of gone over the shoes and kept them inside until the pants finally came off.

I do agree that there should at least been some blood where he was possibly taken but at the same time I don't have complete faith that the area was thoroughly searched because of all the questionable decisions made by LE. I know there was one searcher that was later in contact with Allyn and stated that they should search the area leading to where items were eventually found but I cannot remember his name. I think he was the one that said a small child's footprints were found along with an animals but he didn't see any evidence of blood. He was detailed in Allyn's book.

 

[Lue123]

Hi Thunder Street, I am a scientist and would like to offer some hopefully helpful insights.

1) Hair identification isn’t anywhere close to an exact science, and this is the problem in a lot of forensic work - its done by amateurs who probably aren’t specialists in their field, and make bold assertions (It WAS this / it WASN’T that) without having the proper substantiation to back it up. It’s similar to forensic fire investigation, which was basically considered gospel until recently and a prominent “expert” who had been key in getting multiple convictions was basically proven to be completely wrong.

An amateur investigating the hairs would need specific kit to do so, and these days it should be done on a scanning electron microscope which is a bit of kit I highly doubt was used in this case, they probably used simple compound microscopes instead. At most, all they would be able to tell is whether the hairs found on the shirt were human or non-human.

With a good hair specimen, proper preparation of it, and the correct type of microscope, it would be possible to broadly differentiate between distinct species, but only on a comparative basis - i.e. if you knew you had a hair belonging to a dog, and a hair belonging to a cat, you could look at both and say which was which. But its far harder to take a hair sample and match it to a specific single species, and the literature in this field is rife with non-academic / enthusiast tier work.

2) DNA testing is again something that is frequently gotten wrong, or the results horribly misinterpreted , especially with regards to the scope of what the results can say. I’m particularly curious about the electrophoresis results and the suggestion they show two sets of DNA. It would be great if you could provide some more details about this, ideally from the lab itself. DNA testing is complex, and the test done was probably “DNA fingerprinting” which is used to determine the differences between humans by looking at non-coding genomic repeating sequences, but that won’t tell you much at all if your sample has animal DNA mixed in.

3) I’m also a little wary about this adherence to believing what a particular has expert has said about something - e.g. the forensic expert who said the damage marks on the skull was consistent with damage from hitting your head on rocks in a flowing river. That sounds like a sweeping statement, and there’s is almost no way you can qualify something like that - it honestly sounds like the forensic examiner is making it up, and he/she wouldn’t be the first.

I’m curious about which mountain lion experts were consulted, because I read another source which basically said the exact opposite - a number of mountain lion “experts” were consulted and concluded an attack was highly likely. I recall somewhere that people actually found specific puncture marks in some of the clothing, maybe the shirt - how thoroughly have the garments been inspected? Was this just internet rumouring?

Have to agree with you on this. I have read and heard about experts that say that stated the attack was likely due to a mountain lion.

Edit to add: hair identification is absolutely controversial. All of my forensics classes have detailed this and the FBI testified in the past few years about flawed testimony in 90% of cases over the last twenty years. So depending on the experts credentials and knowledge, I'm doubtful as to how trustworthy their testimony is.

 

[Catmommy]

Ever watch the big cats watch small children at the zoo? They're mesmerized. Kids are perfect prey size. And cats are known to grab the throats of their prey as they attack, silencing and suffocating at the same time before removing them to a more secluded spot. Big cat, small child, no contest and stealthily quick. Just my thoughts.

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

Hello everyone,

I lost access to my old account due to complications with 2FA and with site admin not responding to my request for assistance, I will be using this (hopefully) temporary account. I will respond to new posts soon.

 

[neesaki]

Hello everyone,

I lost access to my old account due to complications with 2FA and with site admin not responding to my request for assistance, I will be using this (hopefully) temporary account. I will respond to new posts soon.

I’m not familiar with 2FA, but I’m sorry to hear this has happened with your account. Hopefully a mod can help clear this up soon. Thank you for your work on Jaryd’s case.

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

I still think it's a possible that the jacket could of been taken off. When my kids are running around outside, they will get hot and take off their jackets even when its 45- 50* (that's cold for us where we live). I'm not sure what the temps were that day but it is a possibility.

I don't agree with the water scenario either.

There are some reasons why the shoes could of made it so far up. Have you even tried to take off a pair of pants with shoes still on and got them stuck? If his pants got caught on a rock and were rolling inside out they could of gone over the shoes and kept them inside until the pants finally came off.

I do agree that there should at least been some blood where he was possibly taken but at the same time I don't have complete faith that the area was thoroughly searched because of all the questionable decisions made by LE. I know there was one searcher that was later in contact with Allyn and stated that they should search the area leading to where items were eventually found but I cannot remember his name. I think he was the one that said a small child's footprints were found along with an animals but he didn't see any evidence of blood. He was detailed in Allyn's book.

We don't have reason to believe that he would have tied his jacket around his waist. Jaryd didn't even know how to tie his shoes. He would have carried his jacket with him if he took it off, and would have been left behind on the trail in any scenario. As for the sweatpants holding the shoes in, it must be stated again that Jaryd always walked around with his shoes untied which is exactly how they were found. If the pants turned inside out around the shoes, the shoes would have remained inside the pant legs according to the way you described it until the one leg of the sweatpants was consumed as it was by insects, birds, and rodents.

During the search, the sheriff finally relented and let more dogs onto the trail. The original handler picked up Jaryd's scent up and around campsites #3 and #4 before they looped back around the trail. This was quite a distance down the trail from where they heard the scream. They had also picked up Jaryd's scent at site #2 but not as strongly as the others.

Ever watch the big cats watch small children at the zoo? They're mesmerized. Kids are perfect prey size. And cats are known to grab the throats of their prey as they attack, silencing and suffocating at the same time before removing them to a more secluded spot. Big cat, small child, no contest and stealthily quick. Just my thoughts.

The circumstances and condition of the evidence still point away from a mountain lion attack, especially since we still can't rule out the Mesa Verde sighting. I'm going by the evidence we have. As stated before, a number of experts replied to Allyn's requests for input and all but one agreed that a lion attack was highly unlikely. Jaryd screamed, and wasn't seen after that point. With no sign other than a set of highly disputed tracks, no evidence points to a lion attack when you take everything in its totality.

Thank you everyone for weighing in with your thoughts. I will reply to the rest in the next day or so.

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

Have to agree with you on this. I have read and heard about experts that say that stated the attack was likely due to a mountain lion.

Edit to add: hair identification is absolutely controversial. All of my forensics classes have detailed this and the FBI testified in the past few years about flawed testimony in 90% of cases over the last twenty years. So depending on the experts credentials and knowledge, I'm doubtful as to how trustworthy their testimony is.

In the case of trying to match a human hair to a culprit, I can certainly see that being a difficult job that leads to many false positives. But we're dealing with animal hair vs mountain lion hair. A hair coming from a mountain lion is pretty grandly different from rodent hair and human hair. What's even more confusing is that there was no hair from Jaryd at all, nor Josallyn as the fleece pullover actually belonged to her. It was obviously put on then taken off some how (which lions do not do), and in the process rubbed against Jaryd's head. But in a mountain lion kill, you don't typically see the head and face consumed. They go for the entrails first, then the torso meat. If the head and face were eaten, the skull would have been pulverized. I've held the skull cap in its evidence bag, and it is very fragile. The marks made on the skull could not have come from a mountain lion, as they are fine cuts in random patterns and not from a large animal.

Thank you for weighing in.

 

[Ksprincess2]

For anyone interested in this case, missing 411 is a must watch!

 

[neesaki]

In the case of trying to match a human hair to a culprit, I can certainly see that being a difficult job that leads to many false positives. But we're dealing with animal hair vs mountain lion hair. A hair coming from a mountain lion is pretty grandly different from rodent hair and human hair. What's even more confusing is that there was no hair from Jaryd at all, nor Josallyn as the fleece pullover actually belonged to her. It was obviously put on then taken off some how (which lions do not do), and in the process rubbed against Jaryd's head. But in a mountain lion kill, you don't typically see the head and face consumed. They go for the entrails first, then the torso meat. If the head and face were eaten, the skull would have been pulverized. I've held the skull cap in its evidence bag, and it is very fragile. The marks made on the skull could not have come from a mountain lion, as they are fine cuts in random patterns and not from a large animal.

Thank you for weighing in.

I think this is the first I've heard the skull had "fine cuts in random patterns" . Can you elaborate ? TIA

 

[NoSI]

Hi All, I live not far from Fort Collins in Estes Park. I have just learned about this case recently (not sure where I have been the last two decades....). I also feel that a ML attack is not the answer here. First of all, they are so rare and second, they wouldn't really be active during that time of the day, which makes that scenario even more unlikely. I read this thread today and will familiarize with the case more. I will see if the book is on amazon.com. Are there any other sources that you recommend I take a look at?

 

[Catmommy]

I'm not advocating a lion attack and I obviously don't know but if a female was hunting and took back her prey to cubs couldn't that explain the difference in the feeding pattern (not the face usually) and the fine cut marks on the skull (cub teeth and kitten play)? Just curious because a death by misadventure seems so feasible here since remains have been recovered.

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

I'm not advocating a lion attack and I obviously don't know but if a female was hunting and took back her prey to cubs couldn't that explain the difference in the feeding pattern (not the face usually) and the fine cut marks on the skull (cub teeth and kitten play)? Just curious because a death by misadventure seems so feasible here since remains have been recovered.

No evidence supports a mountain lion attack. Please see previous posts for an explanation.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Is it really realistic that a person staged the scene how it was found and where it was found, though? If not a ML, what step-by-step is your theory how it was staged and the motive? (Not asking a particular person, and I hope these questions do not offend. I'm asking honestly.)

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

Is it really realistic that a person staged the scene how it was found and where it was found, though? If not a ML, what step-by-step is your theory how it was staged and the motive? (Not asking a particular person, and I hope these questions do not offend. I'm asking honestly.)

Thank you for responding. It is our belief, though we cannot yet prove, that someone meant for the clothing to be found and that it was intended to look like a mountain lion attack. We have someone with the motive and the resources, as only three individuals initially knew about that particular location during the original search. I can't go any further than that right now. It's a more sensitive issue than it appears.

 

[Poth]

The thing that stood out the most to me about this case was Jaryd's skull. Pretty sure skulls don't break like that naturally. @ Thunder Street you said "fine cuts" meaning a man made tool?...

What about a golden eagle attack? They have been known to pick up goats

 

[Poth]

Also, if Allyn's shorts were used as the base scent for the dogs and Allyn went looking for him before the authorities were notified then that would throw the dogs off.

What about that Rubik's cube found near Jaryd's remains? Was that placed there to mock investigators or did someone place it there for Jaryd's spirit to play with or something. Kind of like how people place flowers on graves

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

The thing that stood out the most to me about this case was Jaryd's skull. Pretty sure skulls don't break like that naturally. @ Thunder Street you said "fine cuts" meaning a man made tool?...

What about a golden eagle attack? They have been known to pick up goats

Thank you for commenting. You are correct in your observation regarding skulls not cracking in the manner that the skull on the mountain was. A mountain lion would have crushed it completely, though they are not known to eat the brains of their prey. Pictures of mountain lion kills that I've seen show the head intact every time. As for the bald eagle attack, I do not think it's a possibility. The area Jaryd walked wasn't a very open area and has a lot of tree canopy. Animals do not 'skin' their prey before eating, and there is little room for an eagle to swoop in and snatch him up. The clothing being removed and remarkably intact for an alleged four year stint on the mountain (ask any Coloradoan how crazy the weather gets up there) is strong evidence that they were planted at a much later date.

Also, if Allyn's shorts were used as the base scent for the dogs and Allyn went looking for him before the authorities were notified then that would throw the dogs off.

What about that Rubik's cube found near Jaryd's remains? Was that placed there to mock investigators or did someone place it there for Jaryd's spirit to play with or something. Kind of like how people place flowers on graves

Regarding the scent dogs, that is exactly what happened. Allyn showed me how far he had made it up the trail initially, and based on that it was clear the dogs didn't really have a wide area with his scent. They'd loop back off the trail and go sniffing right at him. It was a major annoyance for him on the trail. Once they had articles of clothing from Jaryd, the dogs went on a much different scent path, which created a lot of questions regarding Jaryd's trajectory through the region.

As for the Rubik's Cube, I have no idea who would have planted it there or why. One can speculate all day long, but it's useless to do so without context. I wouldn't shock me that a certain provocateur put it there for effect. But again, it's meaningless to speculate on it.

 

[Thunder Street Ministry]

I think this is the first I've heard the skull had "fine cuts in random patterns" . Can you elaborate ? TIA

First of all I apologize for missing this question several months ago. I never got an alert for it. The cuts can be seen on the photo of the skull I posted a while back. In a previous post I had explained that an anthropologist contacted Allyn Atadero and said that those cuts and scratches on the skull were consistent with bone being washed over river rock. Allyn explained the situation to her and she ended up deleting all her posts. If you look at a picture of the skull, you will see what she's getting at. They do not look like they were made with a tool. They are without a doubt NOT tooth marks. I've seen pictures of other skulls that were flooded out of graves in Missouri and they bear similar marks. Why this is possible on a skull that ended up 500 vertical feet above the trail with clothes still intact is a major inconsistency with the rest of the evidence. There's a big bread crumb there to follow.

Hi All, I live not far from Fort Collins in Estes Park. I have just learned about this case recently (not sure where I have been the last two decades....). I also feel that a ML attack is not the answer here. First of all, they are so rare and second, they wouldn't really be active during that time of the day, which makes that scenario even more unlikely. I read this thread today and will familiarize with the case more. I will see if the book is on amazon.com. Are there any other sources that you recommend I take a look at?

I recommend watching the segment of the Missing 411 documentary featuring Jaryd's case. It begins around the 30 minute mark. As for the book, I think it's still on Amazon for $2.99 for the Kindle edition. I bought several Kindle versions to give out. If you're comfortable PMing me your email I can send you a copy. Other than that, there aren't too many other writings about the case that I recommend. We have toyed with the idea of doing a web presentation of the case to show people the timeline and answer questions in person but never made it official. Jaryd's case needs a worthy documentary as well. It hasn't been done proper justice, so if any of you know a decent filmmaker maybe they can take up the call. There is a need for proper and professional documentation, and the only sources that have given this are the Sheriff's report and Allyn's book. I wish I had more to point you to. Thanks for your interest in the case.