CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct 2012 - #18

[Cybermom]

The backpack wasn't found until 10/7, after the Ketner Lake searching had started, I believe.

You are correct!

 

[scorekeeper]

thanks, everyone for the answers regarding the fence. The picture from the DenverPost gives me a much better perspective regarding the distance from the road, culvert, fence to the tree. So perhaps the tree has some meaning...
For some reason, this spot was my first thought this morning. May today be the day this is put in handcuffs.

 

[armcha1r_detect1ve]

bbm: this is what I think happened that morning (he drove J to the park to walk the rest of the way with Jessica) (moo)... except when the father drove to the park Jessica was not there, he waited a bit and drove his son to the school. What ever happened occurred between her house and the park.

(my opinion):twocents:

Aaahh, ok. That's what I originally thought too, but somehow in the past few threads I thought it was indicated that she had walked to the friend's house.

Does anyone know what time the father and J arrived at the park or is that info not being released? I know when it's school mornings you are usually watching the clock. You know if the bus will be here in the next 2-4 minutes, etc. I'm sure the father was watching the clock too.

Still seems strange that he didn't go to her house. It's not like she lived that far away. Would have been super quick to drive up, send the boy up to the door, and ring the bell for her. There would have been quite a jump on this case had someone been thinking a little clearer that morning. Le sigh.

 

[concentric]

Well, to be realistic, you'd be moved towards the shallow end of the suspect pool for refusing.

However, simply refusing a search (either of your home, your car or your DNA) is not grounds in and of itself for a search warrant. If LE really wanted your DNA, they would have to come up with grounds for a search and get a judge to sign off on it.

If LE did not have sufficient grounds, then they can resort to surveillance and collection of your DNA off something you discard in public (cigarette, soda can, coffee cup, etc). Depends on how much they are willing to invest in just getting your DNA.[/QUOTE]
---------------

My bold above. One of the reasons I mentioned the Bike Path Rapist/Murderer cases, is that the FBI employed some novel and effective approaches to getting DNA off of cutlery, plates, drinking glasses, etc.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't have names or links, but yes it's been done. There was a case in a coastal town in the Northeast, who's entire male population was DNA'd. I believe there was a serial killer in Louisiana where LE took hundreds of samples as well.

This is just using your post to bounce off of....Someone else was posting in the other thread about familial DNA and the Grim Sleeper. I believe this is also used in known suspected perps. They go directly to family members and get DNA from them. BTK's daughter did this for LE.

Just as a caution, though: mass DNA collection doesn't always work.

There was a case in England where male DNA was found on the victim's underwear (a corset). No matches were found and the case went cold.

Then a couple years later, there was a break in of a church in Scotland. A used paper coffee cup were found and it was thought that the perp had brought it in and left it. When they tested it for DNA, it was a match for the DNA from the victim in England.

They took close to a thousand samples from men in that Scottish town, no matches.

I think I recall reading that investigators aren't even certain the DNA found on the corset belonged to the perp. It was sold out of a popular store rather than bespoke and had probably been handled by many people, including men looking for a gift for a woman.

 

[Elley Mae]

The backpack wasn't found until 10/7, after the Ketner Lake searching had started, I believe.

http://www.dailycamera.com/superior...ase-neighbor-noticed-backpack-superior-street

A Superior resident who helped discover what turned out to be missing 10-year-old Jessica Ridgeway's backpack said he and his wife first noticed the bag sitting on the sidewalk next to their home just after midnight Saturday -- more than 12 hours before it came to the attention of authorities.


He said he and his wife did not remember seeing the backpack when they left their house at the intersection of Andrew Drive and Alpha Court earlier in the evening -- around 6:45 p.m. -- on Saturday.

 

[concentric]

thanks, everyone for the answers regarding the fence. The picture from the DenverPost gives me a much better perspective regarding the distance from the road, culvert, fence to the tree. So perhaps the tree has some meaning...
For some reason, this spot was my first thought this morning. May today be the day this is put in handcuffs.

-----------

I don't know, last week, I was thinking there was some psychological symbology to that area.

Today, I'm thinking that the perp. just figured the barbed wire was a security measure that would deter someone from climbing in there to look at the bag.

 

[absentia]

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I don't know, last week, I was thinking there was some psychological symbology to that area.

Today, I'm thinking that the perp. just figured the barbed wire was a security measure that would deter someone from climbing in there to look at the bag.

to tour the area without having to go there, look at these photos:

i found some more pix of the area by Leydon mine (trees, fence, etc) at Pattridge open space by a local photog:

http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2010/02/24/morning-stop/
and
http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2008/12/27/finally-out/
and
http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2007/08/31/pattridge-open-space-day/
and
http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2008/02/11/trashed/
and
http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2007/09/03/pattridge-ruins/
and of course
http://www.michaeldeleonphoto.com/2007/06/17/pattridge-coal/

 

[TnVolsFan]

You are correct!

Captions on the photos from Denver post state that searching the 'waterbody' and surrounding area is standard procedure- so I think they were just following their protocol.

 

[mck16]

Captions on the photos from Denver post state that searching the 'waterbody' and surrounding area is standard procedure- so I think they were just following their protocol.

A logical thing to do in my opinion. Did they ever go back and do another search? tia

 

[stealth]

I'm going back through the earliest threads now in light of what we now know. Two things stand out.

1. LE said around 1:45pm on Sat 10/6 that they had found "socks" and "other items" at Chelsea Park (near Jessica's home) but didn't know if they were linked. In light of now knowing that socks weren't found with clothes perhaps they had them this early. Might also explain why they called off the public searches that evening and never resumed them with volunteers. They must have learned 'something' IMO.

2. In the excellent summary of previous attempts in the area that is at the beginning of the thread we are missing this one that clearly sounds like it could be related giving MO and close proximity. Also, appears there may be another eye witness. Can we please add this to the summary of attempts?

http://www.ourcoloradonews.com/west...cle_cf97a78a-72a2-11e1-888d-001871e3ce6c.html

 

[spoonco]

Captions on the photos from Denver post state that searching the 'waterbody' and surrounding area is standard procedure- so I think they were just following their protocol.

There were also large searches Sat 10/6 north of 108th in the open space and park along Wadsworth.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Doesn't Jessica's mother know of her plans to either walk to friends or walk to the Park?

Jessica's mother is no doubt constrained by what LE wants her to release about that morning.

This sort of instruction/coaching is very common in missing persons cases that are getting a lot of media attention (sadly, the vast majority of missing persons cases get little or no publicity). The advantage, of course, is that it allows LE to control what goes out there.

The disadvantage is that it often makes the family member come off as insincere or weird. Ed Smart is an example of this. Many people felt he came off as hinky in news conferences because sometimes his word choices seemed strange or he didn't give direct answers to some questions.

Well, it turns out that Ed Smart was not guilty at all. The problem was that he was caught between knowing certain things (due to being in the house) that LE did not want him to mention.

Another example of this is the Sierra LaMar case, where her mother Marlene was also said to be hinky. Again, it turned out Marlene (and her significant other) were completely innocent but because they had to watch their words so carefully in news conferences, people picked up that they were hiding certain things.

Jessica's mother has been cleared and I have no doubt that LE is instructing her on what she can and cannot mention.

 

[mck16]

I'm going back through the earliest threads now in light of what we now know. Two things stand out.

1. LE said around 1:45pm on Sat 10/6 that they had found "socks" and "other items" at Chelsea Park (near Jessica's home) but didn't know if they were linked. In light of now knowing that socks weren't found with clothes perhaps they had them this early. Might also explain why they called off the public searches that evening and never resumed them with volunteers. They must have learned 'something' IMO.

2. In the excellent summary of previous attempts in the area that is at the beginning of the thread we are missing this one that clearly sounds like it could be related giving MO and close proximity. Also, appears there may be another eye witness. Can we please add this to the summary of attempts?

http://www.ourcoloradonews.com/west...cle_cf97a78a-72a2-11e1-888d-001871e3ce6c.html

It sounds more and more to me that this perp or these perps don't have a car. jmo

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

OT...Everyone knows that this what the salon does every night. How stupid!

Err, uhhhh...shef? Maybe not a fab idea posting that? Just don't know who might be reading and get inspired? And I'm not even all that paranoid lol

 

[csziggy]

IMO only
I also think she was most likely lured or forced into a vehicle.

I wont go all overboard again today about the rag, but I keep thinking that he probably used the same method with Jessica, as he used with the jogger (since LE says they are related).

I keep thinking that if a person goes through the trouble to either make or obtain the chemical (for example = chloroform), that same person would want to actually use it.

Somebody asked yesterday how quick the fumes will knock out a person, and from watching TV shows, I think it is pretty immediate so long as the person breathes it in all the way. I do think the person probably tested it out on either another person or a dog first to be sure it worked. If the 3rd case at the bar ends up being related, perpaps the multiple perps tested it out on each other, and knew they had a chemical that would knock out a person real quick, and maybe that is why we saw so many attempts of using the rag because they knew it would work so long as they got the person to breathe it in.

Anyway, I sure hope LE catches him/them soon. This is a very scary situation. I still cant believe there are no DNA matches to other people in their databases. It seems this person would have had a record. Even finger prints from maybe the garbage bags seems like they should have found some prints and it should have matched someone who had a record. I find it really strange this perp(s) does not have a criminal record.

There has been no word yet of prints being recovered, but I found that odd since when opening up trash bags, it seems it would provide prints rather easily, unless they wore gloves. But it is hard to open trash bags with gloves on because they stick and you need to almost do it bare handed.

BBM

I think the immediate effect of chloroform is an urban myth - a very very old urban myth.

In this article, "The Criminal Use of Chloroform" a 1865 article from "Lancet" is cited "that with utmost resignation and good will some 5 min or more was requisite to produce anaesthesia" - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2044.1998.528-az0572.x/pdf

 

[scorekeeper]

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/295798/346/Investigators-gather-500-DNA-samples

Investigators selected people for DNA samples based on a variety of factors, 9Wants to Know learned and Materasso confirmed.

Investigators asked for DNA from the following groups:

People who members of the public said should be considered suspects in Ridgeway's killing.
People identified through information gathered when police canvassed neighborhoods near her house and where her backpack was discovered.
People whose cellphones were used in areas near the crime scene.
People who matched the description of a man who tried to grab a woman as she was running around Ketner Lake in Westminster.

The group of people that were asked for DNA....

I wonder what the numbers are from each group? I would hope that the DNA taken from the first group were also "considered suspects" to LE based on their investigation. These individuals must have been brought to LE's attention via the tipline or the canvassing.

If they received 500 swabs, I wonder how many people refused and/or can't be located at this time?

I am really just "talking out loud to myself" :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Does anyone else find it strange that this type of information was released for a specific reason?

 

[Wondergirl]

I don't ever remember DNA being taken for this many people before (500). Does anyone know if this has been done previously?

(I mistyped "previously" at first, and one of the autocorrect suggestions I was given was "perviously"! I didn't even know that was a word! Although I suppose it really has to do with permeability, not being a perv.)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yes.

A high profile, gruesome, unsolved murder near Toronto in 2010.

FBI has been involved in this Canadian case.

Varaschin, 42, went missing on Aug. 30, 2010. Her body was found a week later, on Sept. 5, on Beechgrove Sideroad outside Orangeville.

Karski said police have collected some 600 DNA samples from men over 18 in the Orangeville area.

“The collection is still going on with individuals that have a connection to the victim or the area in which the victim lived, as well as where the victim’s body was located,” Karski said.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1240407--sonia-varaschin-murder-probe-police-break-silence

 

[cluciano63]

Thinking about the three most recent cases, where the victims have been located (Whitney, Autumn and Jessica); the time they were reported missing ranges from about 2 hours to 9 hours, and yet even the shortest time, in Whitney's case, seems to have been too late. I doubt that any of them could have been saved if it had been known sooner that they were missing, unless there had been an actual eyewitness to the crimes. It seems that the victims are probably not alive for very long.

I don't really have a point, except to say that Jessica's mom not hearing the phone really probably made no difference to the outcome. It was probably already too late.

 

[scorekeeper]

It sounds more and more to me that this perp or these perps don't have a car. jmo

hmmmm...but did you notice the article mentioned

a dark SUV driving slowly by....