CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #26 *ARREST*

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Well, that's true but I also think that not everyone is entirely forthcoming about their relationships when it comes to sharing it with their parents. Especially when it is as complex as KB's seemed to be. We have heard that they were engaged, but with all the conflicting details it's not hard to believe that they might not have been for quite some time. Imo

How did she fool her family into thinking she was still engaged to PF when they visited in October 2018? That visit could have been around the baby's 1st birthday (Oct 2017). It's one thing to lie over the phone or omit details of where the relationship was going wrong when talking to her parents. But it would have been pretty hard for a couple with a baby to fake a "loving" relationship for her family visiting her in person. And what would be the point of that complex of a lie on KB's part? I don't find KB to be that duplicitous of a person based on everything that others have said about her personality. JMO.
 
How did she fool her family into thinking she was still engaged to PF when they visited in October 2018? That visit could have been around the baby's 1st birthday (Oct 2017). It's one thing to lie over the phone or omit details of where the relationship was going wrong when talking to her parents. But it would have been pretty hard for a couple with a baby to fake a "loving" relationship for her family visiting her in person. And what would be the point of that complex of a lie on KB's part? I don't find KB to be that duplicitous of a person based on everything that others have said about her personality. JMO.

All of this! It’s why I have never believed the idea she overstated her relationship. PF might have been colder I’d tried to not hang out as much as previous trips the Bs made, but I don’t think KB would include him if they weren’t together. The family photos are one of the things people use as evidence, but we don’t know if there are sets of KB and PF with baby K as well, just not released. It also could have been a gift for CB to have professional shots with KB and baby K. DB isn’t in them either, does that mean he’s estranged from the family too? MOO
 
What was the plan for the baby? Just leave here there and PK would just happen to visit later an call the cops and report a robbery/murder?
I’m curious what the statistics are for how often the body is taken or left behind in PREMEDITATED murder cases vs. how often a body is taken or left behind in non-premeditated murder cases.

I would assume the body is removed more often in premeditated murder cases (more time to plan for removal/disposal).

But I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of a handful of cases of “crime of passion” murders that were not planned, but the body was still removed.

For obvious reasons, I would think it’s the premeditated murder cases in which bodies are most difficult to recover.

In other words, as soon as Kelsey was missing, and we all had reason to suspect foul play, I wonder if that should have been a clue to us about possible solicitation and/or premeditation (due to missing body). If so, I missed the clue. I assumed it was a non-planned rage killing.

I’ve since learned with this case to expect the unexpected.

MOO
 
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That is quite a range: from $21,153 (part timers) to $200,000 (farriers who work on race horses and show horses). In between that is $40,000 for farriers who work mainly on pleasure horses. Am I correct in assuming you think he is on the higher end close to $200,000? Can I ask why you think that he would be?

I would put PF in the lower range in my opinion based on the clients I have seen speak to the press about him. He works on the donkeys for the 2 Mile High Club in Cripple Creek which is a non-profit group and may not pay as high as other clients. We're not allowed to sleuth the individuals who spoke and said PF did farrier work for them but my impression from their interviews only is they are neighbors or former neighbors and more in the "owns one or two pleasure horses" category than the "wealthy hobby horse in show/race track" category. And that link also assumes salary for a "good farrier". We don't know that PF was a good farrier-- we only know some said they were not happy with his treatment of their animals and one said she stopped hiring him. That kind of reputation, if true, would be bad for PF's business prospects. PF might have earned more income from his dog breeding, cattle sales and rodeo competing. But it's really anyone's guess how much he made annually. MOO.

I think he made more, yes. If he was active on the rodeo circuit, I believe he would pick up farrier work at each rodeo. There’s always a thrown shoe or something going on with horses. I think it would be common for him to have a waiting line at a good sized rodeo, in fact. The horses at rodeos are more along the line of “performance horses”. Not so much pleasure/trail horses.
I also think he has an established clientele, despite complaints. I can’t think of any profession that is complaint free. Restaurants, hair salons, doctors, dentists, vets, auto lots, mechanics, etc.
Finding a farrier can be difficult. I think most people tend to stick with the same one. They get to know any special needs your horse may have. Every hoof is dif’.
Thumping a horse with a rasp to square it up is not uncommon, either. Horses don’t automatically know how to stand for a farrier. IMO, training a large animal is much different than training a poodle. Back to his established clientele, if he has one, he would likely be on an automatic schedule with them, if he has 100-150 clients, each having a few horses, IMO, he’s making a good income.
I think any income from dogs would be nominal. Jmo
The linked data is not current, it was all I could find last night.

Moo moo moo
 
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Some members were curious about that ping in Gooding, ID. Seemed off. Out of IN's way home. Since she is being investigated, I imagine LE have HER cell logs including her journey to CO. Have they perhaps determined that she went to the Gooding area on her way to CO as well? Was there "something" or "someone" she needed to drop off or pick up?
ALL SPECULATION, naturally.

<modsnip>
 
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How did she fool her family into thinking she was still engaged to PF when they visited in October 2018? That visit could have been around the baby's 1st birthday (Oct 2017). It's one thing to lie over the phone or omit details of where the relationship was going wrong when talking to her parents. But it would have been pretty hard for a couple with a baby to fake a "loving" relationship for her family visiting her in person. And what would be the point of that complex of a lie on KB's part? I don't find KB to be that duplicitous of a person based on everything that others have said about her personality. JMO.

I think Kelsey thought she was engaged. But I feel like a lot of posters don’t like the idea that Kelsey might really have wanted to marry PF, so they prefer to believe that Kelsey was the one stalling. I think she considered herself in a relationship with him at the time of her murder.

But at the same time, Kelsey may have kept details of their relationship/marriage plans status from her mom, as I know from experience distance makes it easy to do. Jmo
 
Or maybe the police went to see if Sonic had cameras facing the road to see if they could get video of KB's vehicle returning home from Safeway? Sonic is midway between Safeway and KB's house and close to HWY 24: Google Maps
The street view shows how close Sonic is to the road: Google Maps

Perhaps Sonic was simply included in a police canvas of places LE went asking for CCTV. Perhaps only the manager/store owner would know what the police actually asked for while there. But the fast food workers may have overheard something and it's like a game of telephone-- the story gets changed a bit and added to each time it is told. Or perhaps someone has an active imagination and embellishes. Somehow the story morphs to outright gossip when it jumps to social media and then the one news station decides to run with "a mistress/possible co conspirator may have been at Sonic 2 days after KB was murdered" story line, only to get a swift rebuke from someone the moment it aired. And the story may have been pulled because it was pure gossip. That was on Saturday and we have yet to see it being repeated by other stations nor put into print. If it was true it should have been published all over the airways all weekend long.
MOO.
Or, could LE have requested it (broadcast about Sonic) be removed due to it being part of a sensitive criminal investigation? Obviously, with freedom of speech, they couldn’t demand its removal, but perhaps media honored the request?
 
Patrick Frazee served with civil lawsuit

Patrick Frazee served with civil lawsuit

Frazee now has a certain amount of time to respond to the lawsuit now that it has been formally served.

KRDO is working to find out if Frazee has council for the federal lawsuit.
I love the headline. PF is in jail on a murder charge and he is being served with a civil lawsuit. He has public defenders for his criminal trial that could get him the death penalty and he has to worry about getting a lawyer for a civil trial. What a hoot! LOL....

If he would just be honest, he could end all of this.
 
Who is PF currently able to communicate with?
Is PF able to communicate with his family at this point? If so, is the communication only allowed by telephone or can they visit as well? Also, is he in isolation or can he converse with others that are incarcerated?
 
Could be! I do think it was something to do with his wanting total control over the baby. And I do think it's possible that she was getting ready to make a move. What that move may have been is a mystery. Imo

PF was planning her murder for since September. If Kelsey did something that caused PF to decide to murder her, she must have done that in September. On the other hand, since she did not move, sell her home, change jobs, or file custody documents in September, it's unlikely that she did anything that caused PF to decide to murder her.
 
I think he may have wanted a baby. But he didn't want a baby with a rodeo queen. He wanted a 'good' Christian non-trouble maker, to have a child with. I don't think he ever planned to marry her.

rodeo queen left her husband around the time PF became involved with Kelsey ------
she was married and had 2 babies -- maybe PF could not or would not commit to IN ----
so she married -- but if there was more than just an affair with PF as in true love , ---- that could be the reason for her divorce -- when PK became involved with Kelsey , ----
IN may have made a decision that if PF was going to commit to anyone , it would be her --
NOT saying she was involved in Kelsey's demise -- she had to know that PF wanted Kelsey to be
out of the picture -- but to go as far as to help plan or participate in a murder ?? JMO

JUST SO TERRIBLY TRAGIC AND SAD -- IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY ---
--------- OTHER PEOPLE KNEW SOMETHING -- WHY DIDN'T THEY INTERVENE ??

KELSEY WAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL LADY -- GOD BLESS HER LITTLE GIRL
 
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<modsnip: discussion moderation is not allowed>

Some members were curious about that ping in Gooding, ID. Seemed off. Out of IN's way home. Since she is being investigated, I imagine LE have HER cell logs including her journey to CO. Have they perhaps determined that she went to the Gooding area on her way to CO as well? Was there "something" or "someone" she needed to drop off or pick up?
ALL SPECULATION, naturally.

<modsnip>

If she had a burner phone, there may be no records. Hopefully the reports of her using her credit card at Sonic are true.
 
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I am not sure why so many believe KB was keeping a a broken engagement from her mom...or that she was being untruthful that she and the baby had tentative plans to go out to eat with PF on Thanksgiving. I truly believe she thought she was engaged.
Why assume KB was being dishonest when we know PF is a liar. I'm sure he was completely dishonest about his intentions with KB, just like I'm sure he lied to pretty much anyone else with whom he came into contact.
IMHO he has a cluster B personality disorder, specifically NPD. Cluster B folks lie the way normal people breath. It's in their nature.
So again, there's nothing to suggest KB was constantly being dishonest about their relationship, but everything to suggest PF was, IMO.
 
I am not sure why so many believe KB was keeping a a broken engagement from her mom...or that she was being untruthful that she and the baby had tentative plans to go out to eat with PF on Thanksgiving. I truly believe she thought she was engaged.
Why assume KB was being dishonest when we know PF is a liar. I'm sure he was completely dishonest about his intentions with KB, just like I'm sure he lied to pretty much anyone else with whom he came into contact.
IMHO he has a cluster B personality disorder, specifically NPD. Cluster B folks lie the way normal people breath. It's in their nature.
So again, there's nothing to suggest KB was constantly being dishonest about their relationship, but everything to suggest PF was, IMO.
It’s always been this way. There is a crime and the VICTIM gets bashed. Not believed, etc.
 
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I think it’s very unlikely that IN stayed at KB’s, but as I said before, I’ve learned to expect the unexpected.

I think we may still have some “surprises” in store as we learn more about what happened in this case.

MOO
 
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Are you certain it's really PF's IG account with no posts. So many fake SM accounts show up when person is in the news. PF already had at least one fake FB account surface with post he was allegedly selling cows. MOO[/QUOTE

I’m pretty certain it’s his. (Pbarfcattle) I can tell by who he’s following/followers crossed with his FB friends from his actual FB.
 
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I am not sure why so many believe KB was keeping a a broken engagement from her mom...or that she was being untruthful that she and the baby had tentative plans to go out to eat with PF on Thanksgiving. I truly believe she thought she was engaged.
Why assume KB was being dishonest when we know PF is a liar. I'm sure he was completely dishonest about his intentions with KB, just like I'm sure he lied to pretty much anyone else with whom he came into contact.
IMHO he has a cluster B personality disorder, specifically NPD. Cluster B folks lie the way normal people breath. It's in their nature.
So again, there's nothing to suggest KB was constantly being dishonest about their relationship, but everything to suggest PF was, IMO.

Exactly. She believed they were engaged. She believed that they were not yet living together because the price of cattle was low. She told her mother that she and her daughter were having Thanksgiving dinner with PF. She has no known history of deception.
 
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