CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #57 *ARREST*

[dixiegirl1035]

Good point Seattle.....

"We know that KB
1. baked cinnamon rolls,
2. went to Safeway,
3. bought fresh flowers found on her table prior to her being bludgeoned to death.
4. told PF that she bought the sweet potatoes but for got pecans, if you want them pick them up.
a. If going to Ranch why not just say: "bought the sweet potatoes but forgot pecans by any chance does your mom have any, or can we pick up some going out of town?"
b. She wanted to go out to eat....but it sounds like he steered her to eating at her place.
c. I can hear him say over the phone, "while I'm at Wal-Mart Ill grab a roasted chicken."

Sometimes, I second-guess that even she made the cinnamon rolls. A lot of blood smells, and cleaning with Clorox smells. Perhaps somebody else made those cinnamon rolls to give an odor in the house that was trying to cover the other smells?

 

[PommyMommy]

Weekend Express with Susan Hendricks on Twitter (Video)
Patrick Frazee is the Colorado man accused of killing his fiancé, and the his trial is quickly approaching. Now attorneys have to determine what evidence should and should not be allowed. Defense Attorney @MoniquePressley discusses how this all could impact a potential jury.
9:00 AM - 21 Oct 2019

 

[Warwick7]

Sometimes, I second-guess that even she made the cinnamon rolls. A lot of blood smells, and cleaning with Clorox smells. Perhaps somebody else made those cinnamon rolls to give an odor in the house that was trying to cover the other smells?

I like your thinking. I guess my take on it is:
1. LE found them there.
2. KK said she was told to remove tinfoil off the top of them because three was blood on it.

 

[oviedo]

oh dear - are we back to the cinnamon rolls??? we spent weeks discussing them in earlier threads.

 

[Steelslady]

I always thought the "you take a nap while the baby and I go to Wal-Mart" was after KB got up in the morning on the 22nd (around maybe 9am). But after reading the affidavit it was sent before 4am (about the time or right before KB and the baby got home).

Since this was sent right after she bought and delivered him meds from Walmart it changes a bit of my thinking on things.

He was setting her up to be tired and in a position the next day of wanting a nap...

Not sure where I am going with this but it is stuck in my craw.

This has been my thinking as well. He wanted her to be good and tired for when he got there to play his stupid "smell the candle" game. He knew she'd be too tired to argue over playing, and it wouldn't raise red flags to a tired mind.

 

[SandyQLS]

Wasn't MG somewhat of a busy body in the case?

I think she was interviewed by FBI for confirmation when she exchanged vehicles with KK, and sometime later sought them out again to tell them she thought her gun was tampered with. I've wondered whether she was just fishing for information when she reached out to investigators with her gun story (to share with KK, of course).

MOO

ETA: I don't recall FBI acting on this gun story -- kind of like they just blew her off...

What type of ammunition does MG's gun use versus the type of ammunition KB's gun uses?

Most gun owners keep their guns clean and lightly oiled. For example, if they take the gun out target shooting, they immediately take it home and clean it to remove the carbon deposits. Then the gun is stored lightly oiled or dry.

MG likely knew to keep her gun clean.
We the public have not been told, but was her gun merely missing a round, or were there fresh carbon deposits suggesting it had been fired?

 

[GordianKnot]

If you were DA May, armed with a witness list currently numbering in the hundreds:

1) Who would you call as your first witness?
2) Would you bring KK to the stand early on in the proceedings, or save her for later, so that it's her testimony that jurors are left with as they go off to deliberate?
3) Would you call CB and CB1 to the stand before or after you call LE witnesses and/or KK?
4) Would you call SF1 or SF2 to the stand first?
5) Who would you call as your last witness?

One of the challenges the prosecution faces is keeping the timeline of events clear in the jurors' minds, in addition to tying in all the pieces of evidence at the relevant times and locations.

There are a ton of puzzle pieces to assemble here.

The order of witnesses does matter.
It's important that there's a coherent flow that makes logical sense and builds to the inevitable conclusion that PF murdered KB.

It's going to be really interesting to see who the prosecution calls to the stand both first, and last.

Start Strong.
Finish Stronger.

JMO.

 

[Noharg]

If you were DA May, armed with a witness list currently numbering in the hundreds:

1) Who would you call as your first witness?
2) Would you bring KK to the stand early on in the proceedings, or save her for later, so that it's her testimony that jurors are left with as they go off to deliberate?
3) Would you call CB and CB1 to the stand before or after you call LE witnesses and/or KK?
4) Would you call SF1 or SF2 to the stand first?
5) Who would you call as your last witness?

One of the challenges the prosecution faces is keeping the timeline of events clear in the jurors' minds, in addition to tying in all the pieces of evidence at the relevant times and locations.

There are a ton of puzzle pieces to assemble here.

The order of witnesses does matter.
It's important that there's a coherent flow that makes logical sense and builds to the inevitable conclusion that PF murdered KB.

It's going to be really interesting to see who the prosecution calls to the stand both first, and last.

Start Strong.
Finish Stronger.

JMO.

Ahh, scripting the narrative. CB first to set the scene.

 

[crhedBngr]

He can read?

LOL! Thanks for the laugh. Best one today!!!

 

[MassGuy]

Ahh, scripting the narrative. CB first to set the scene.

Yeah, I like that.

She can bring Kelsey to life, and provide background as to the relationship between Kelsey and PF.

Then she can discuss how this played out, and the numerous lies PF told.

 

[Seattle1]

If you were DA May, armed with a witness list currently numbering in the hundreds:

1) Who would you call as your first witness?
2) Would you bring KK to the stand early on in the proceedings, or save her for later, so that it's her testimony that jurors are left with as they go off to deliberate?
3) Would you call CB and CB1 to the stand before or after you call LE witnesses and/or KK?
4) Would you call SF1 or SF2 to the stand first?
5) Who would you call as your last witness?

One of the challenges the prosecution faces is keeping the timeline of events clear in the jurors' minds, in addition to tying in all the pieces of evidence at the relevant times and locations.

There are a ton of puzzle pieces to assemble here.

The order of witnesses does matter.
It's important that there's a coherent flow that makes logical sense and builds to the inevitable conclusion that PF murdered KB.

It's going to be really interesting to see who the prosecution calls to the stand both first, and last.

Start Strong.
Finish Stronger.

JMO.

I'd stick to his (May) original approach from last Feb. I think his first or last witness should be ma SF.

Mothers immediately get the attention of jurors, and if she refuses to answer questions, that will stay with them during the entire trial: more like if mom won't talk, I'd be suspect of the testimony of any other defense witnesses.

 

[steeltowngirl]

If you were DA May, armed with a witness list currently numbering in the hundreds:

1) Who would you call as your first witness?
2) Would you bring KK to the stand early on in the proceedings, or save her for later, so that it's her testimony that jurors are left with as they go off to deliberate?
3) Would you call CB and CB1 to the stand before or after you call LE witnesses and/or KK?
4) Would you call SF1 or SF2 to the stand first?
5) Who would you call as your last witness?

One of the challenges the prosecution faces is keeping the timeline of events clear in the jurors' minds, in addition to tying in all the pieces of evidence at the relevant times and locations.

There are a ton of puzzle pieces to assemble here.

The order of witnesses does matter.
It's important that there's a coherent flow that makes logical sense and builds to the inevitable conclusion that PF murdered KB.

It's going to be really interesting to see who the prosecution calls to the stand both first, and last.

Start Strong.
Finish Stronger.

JMO.

Such a great question, GK!

I can’t really guess at order, but it got me generally thinking of the key witness list.

Here is a “sort of” order based on chronology of events. Feel free to throw cinnamon rolls at it..

CB
CB2
Coworkers
KB Best friend
KB former bf
PF former gf
Depression clinic rep
Safeway rep
Walmart rep
SF
SF2
Crime scene investigators
Forensics experts
Cell phone expert
Neighbor with surveillance camera
KK aunt
MG
Chad L
KK
CC
RS
Gas station rep
Mark P
Bank Teller
The Rockstahls
Custody interviewer

 

[MyBelle]

Sometimes, I second-guess that even she made the cinnamon rolls. A lot of blood smells, and cleaning with Clorox smells. Perhaps somebody else made those cinnamon rolls to give an odor in the house that was trying to cover the other smells?

When I heard KK claimed to remove blood-spattered tin foil from the cinnamon rolls, I suspected she made them to mask the smell and consumed one of them to hold her over.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Ahh, scripting the narrative. CB first to set the scene.

That could be risky because the defense will be able to cross-examine and get PF's "side" before the jury early on.

When KB first went missing, I think CB trusted PF. Hence the delay before CB sounded the alarm. She has said KB told her she had been helping PF in the wee hours of the night, that they might go to dinner, perhaps get a tree and that she might make a sweet potato casserole. None of that sounds like KB was afraid of PF. CB also referred to him as KB's fiance and there has been nothing mentioned publicly that the couple had a history of conflict. KB and PF seemed to co-parent the baby without arguing about it. There has been an unanswered question that the defense will bring up: why didn't KB and PF live together? Did they live apart because KB's parents strongly disapproved of having children and living together before marriage?

Murders involving domestic violence often have an abusive history that leads up to the murder. This one has no such history.

JMO

The Washington Post found that nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were, like Parnell and Cisneros, killed by a current or former intimate partner. In a close analysis of five cities, about a third of the male killers were known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/

 

[steeltowngirl]

That could be risky because the defense will be able to cross-examine and get PF's "side" before the jury early on.

When KB first went missing, I think CB trusted PF. Hence the delay before CB sounded the alarm. She has said KB told her she had been helping PF in the wee hours of the night, that they might go to dinner, perhaps get a tree and that she might make a sweet potato casserole. None of that sounds like KB was afraid of PF. CB also referred to him as KB's fiance and there has been nothing mentioned publicly that the couple had a history of conflict. KB and PF seemed to co-parent the baby without arguing about it. There has been an unanswered question that the defense will bring up: why didn't KB and PF live together? Did they live apart because KB's parents strongly disapproved of having children and living together before marriage?

Murders involving domestic violence often have an abusive history that leads up to the murder. This one has no such history.

JMO

The Washington Post found that nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were, like Parnell and Cisneros, killed by a current or former intimate partner. In a close analysis of five cities, about a third of the male killers were known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/

And yet we have examples like Chris and Shanann Watts.

My take on the statistic is: Two thirds of the male killers were not known to be a potential threat prior to the attack.

 

[GordianKnot]

The Washington Post found that nearly half of the women who were murdered during the past decade were, like Parnell and Cisneros, killed by a current or former intimate partner. In a close analysis of five cities, about a third of the male killers were known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/

Snipped for focus:

Good to know.

IOW, results of that study you cited reflect that in 2/3 of those cases, i.e., a clear majority of instances, the male killers were not known to be a potential threat ahead of the attack.

So in this case, arguing that there was no prior known history of physical abuse in no way advances the argument that PF did not kill KB.

Awesome! Another point for the prosecution.

Hope Stiegerwald does raise this point so that DA May can shoot it down.

JMO.

 

[Dave F.]

Such a great question, GK!

I can’t really guess at order, but it got me generally thinking of the key witness list.

Here is a “sort of” order based on chronology of events. Feel free to throw cinnamon rolls at it..

CB
CB2
Coworkers
KB Best friend
KB former bf
PF former gf
Depression clinic rep
Safeway rep
Walmart rep
SF
SF2
Crime scene investigators
Forensics experts
Cell phone expert
Neighbor with surveillance camera
KK aunt
MG
Chad L
KK
CC
RS
Gas station rep
Mark P
Bank Teller
The Rockstahls
Custody interviewer

The prosecution lists 255 witnesses, and allows 3 weeks or 15 court days for the trial. At least two of those days have to be alloted for defense summation. That's 20 witnesses that have to be fully processed every single day of the trial, in addition to the other items on the agenda. At most, you have listed fifty potential testifiers. To keep on pace, they would be done by noon break on day two. Whose next?
Just asking. IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

There has been an unanswered question that the defense will bring up: why didn't KB and PF live together? Did they live apart because KB's parents strongly disapproved of having children and living together before marriage?

SABBM:

That would be an extremely risky move on the defense's part.

Never ask a question of a witness when you don't know what the answer will be, isn't that the general rule of thumb for lawyers, @gitana1 ?

JMO.

 

[MemPat]

Sometimes, I second-guess that even she made the cinnamon rolls. A lot of blood smells, and cleaning with Clorox smells. Perhaps somebody else made those cinnamon rolls to give an odor in the house that was trying to cover the other smells?

Or somebody got really hungry right in the middle of cleaning up a gruesome crime scene.
Would you be surprised?

 

[Seattle1]

The prosecution lists 255 witnesses, and allows 3 weeks or 15 court days for the trial. At least two of those days have to be alloted for defense summation. That's 20 witnesses that have to be fully processed every single day of the trial, in addition to the other items on the agenda. At most, you have listed fifty potential testifiers. To keep on pace, they would be done by noon break on day two. Whose next?
Just asking. IMO

I believe you missed the part that 255 witness list will be parred down before trial.