CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #58

[MassGuy]

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel
“I’m not a subjective reasoner, and that’s the way it is,” one man said before getting the boot. Again, circumstantial evidence isn’t subjective as a matter of law.

12:07 PM - 1 Nov 2019

Good, I’m happy that people like this got the boot. They seem to believe the standard is “guilty beyond all doubt,” as opposed to “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.”

These people tend to the the “lone holdout,” when a jury hangs.

 

[gitana1]

Listen, if it were up to me, I'd bring back public hangings in the town square.

If you were to replace the words "nosy nelly" with "concerned citizen," I'd be inclined to agree with your point.

JMO.

Yes but concerned citizens (which is all of us here) are able to follow the trial by reviewing what the reporters report. There are several so we should get a pretty compete picture.

This judge doesn’t want the trial to be entertainment. That’s his prerogative. Annoying but not unconstitutional.

I can’t speak for Alethea but I believe in this context the term nosy nelly stands for people who feel entitled to live streamed trials, won’t accept less and believe that failure to deliver every minute of video recorded trial right into their living rooms means the trial is being held in secret and is a violation of constitutional protections.

 

[Seattle1]

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel
Lots of varying attitudes toward circumstantial evidence as opposed to direct evidence. Under CO law, they are equal, but several jurors expressed reservations. They were all kicked by my recollection.

12:05 PM - 1 Nov 2019

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel
One juror, for example, said that if reporters don’t have the material they need, they simply “sensationalize.” A former Green Beret said he ignores news accounts in favor of “real intelligence,” leading others to nod in agreement.

12:04 PM - 1 Nov 2019

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel
Defense in their questioning of jurors drilled into whether they can ignore media coverage, eliciting agreement and a healthy share of criticism for reporters.

11:56 AM - 1 Nov 2019

 

[Madeleine74]

I believe in this context the term nosy nelly stands for people who feel entitled to live streamed trials, won’t accept less and believe that failure to deliver every minute of video recorded trial right into their living rooms means the trial is being held in secret and is a violation of constitutional protections.

Agree. True crime is a source of entertainment for many, though they'd claim that's not true, they're just really concerned about the justice system and justice for the victim, blah, blah. Some people believe if they follow a case it's their right to be as closely involved as they can get or at least be treated as a member of the inner circle who is privy to information the public doesn't get to know.

 

[tmar]

its Saturday morning coffee in Australia!

thank you in advance all the hunter gatherers. love you all for what you do! x

Another Aussie here.
The word is spreading. waiting for the Guilty verdict soon.
MOO.

Yes, early morning here, whereas you guys are so tired, after hours being here.

 

[gitana1]

Agree. True crime is a source of entertainment for many, though they'd claim that's not true, they're just really concerned about the justice system and justice for the victim, blah, blah. Some people believe if they follow a case it's their right to be as closely involved as they can get or at least be treated as a member of the inner circle who is privy to information the public doesn't get to know.

Yes. The worst (to me) is demands for all the investigative materials because LE is inept and can’t solve the case without the public getting involved and doing the job for them. Drives me batty.

 

[MassGuy]

Agree. True crime is a source of entertainment for many, though they'd claim that's not true, they're just really concerned about the justice system and justice for the victim, blah, blah. Some people believe if they follow a case it's their right to be as closely involved as they can get or at least be treated as a member of the inner circle who is privy to information the public doesn't get to know.

We especially see that during ongoing investigations, when there is a sense of entitlement in regards to law enforcement releasing information.

It’s their job to solve crimes, not ours.

And true crime is definitely a source of entertainment. Entire networks are dedicated to it.

 

[borndem]

Most criminal cases are circumstantial cases. Direct evidence is: eyewitness to the crime, confession by the perp, or video of the crime. Everything else is, by definition, circumstantial evidence.

Yep -- I don't know how or when the concept of "all they have is circumstantial evidence," came to get such a bad rap. It's the basis of darn near every trial -- blood, saliva, fingerprints, gunshot residue, DNA, footprints, bruises, scratches, all kinds of bodily fluids, tox screens, etc., etc., etc.
I guess it's because a lot of people don't really know what it is.
If we totaled-up cases solved by circ. evidence vs. eyewitness evidence only (which is weak, weak, weak due to the "human element"), the no. of convictions using only circ. evidence would dwarf eyewitness by about 100 to 1, I'd guess. And that ratio is probably off by x 10.

 

[GordianKnot]

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel

Lance Benzel‏ @lancebenzel
“I’m not a subjective reasoner, and that’s the way it is,” one man said before getting the boot. Again, circumstantial evidence isn’t subjective as a matter of law.

12:07 PM - 1 Nov 2019

BBM:

, Mr. Non-Subjective Reasoner Dude!!

 

[MassGuy]

Yep -- I don't know how or when the concept of "all they have is circumstantial evidence," came to get such a bad rap. It's the basis of darn near every trial -- blood, saliva, fingerprints, gunshot residue, DNA, footprints, bruises, scratches, all kinds of bodily fluids, tox screens, etc., etc., etc.
I guess it's because a lot of people don't really know what it is.
If we totaled-up cases solved by circ. evidence vs. eyewitness evidence only (which is weak, weak, weak due to the "human element"), the no. of convictions using only circ. evidence would dwarf eyewitness by about 100 to 1, I'd guess. And that ratio is probably off by x 10.

I think it comes down to people thinking that “circumstantial evidence” is another way of saying “not DNA.”

Of course DNA is incredibly important circumstantial evidence. If a suspect’s blood has no business being at a crime scene, that’s powerful stuff.

 

[Hatfield]

Buck up, Hatfield. You've opined this fear or something akin to the jury refusing to convict in most every murder case. How about sending some positive energy to the ADA & team.

I never said the jury would not convict. Im very careful with my words so please be equally as careful when interpreting them.

I cant help Im a worry wort. I do want the prosecution to succeed and like I mentioned I do think there is enough other evidence in this case to do so even without KK.

"Like has been discussed before, we know the prosecution has other evidence that should show PF as guilty.

I just hope they are able to do that if for some reason the jury decides, amongst themselves, that they are going to disregard all testimony from KK."

 

[Madeleine74]

Yes. The worst (to me) is demands for all the investigative materials because LE is inept and can’t solve the case without the public getting involved and doing the job for them. Drives me batty.

Sing it sister! Or how question after question is asked with some believing that detectives will contact them personally to answer their questions and take direction from them on how to investigate and what all they should look at. And their questions don't get answered because of course no one knows except people involved directly in the case. But they don't stop and realize they never get an answer. Ha.

 

[borndem]

edited by me ^^
Raising my hand here - outside the US -

Opening statements start here at 10pm - unfortunately, that's my bedtime - so I'll have to catch up with you all tomorrow.... keep good notes!

Yep - Eastern European Time...
Good night all!

Ar labunakti
Gulēt labi un saldi sapņi.

 

[Steelslady]

Next up: not allowed to take mental images of PF either.

That just literally made me laugh out loud!!!!!

 

[Madeleine74]

I never said the jury would not convict. Im very careful with my words so please be equally as careful when interpreting them.

You've opined a fear a jury won't convict. And most of the time they do. Nothing is 100% of course, but there hasn't even been 1 witness to testify yet. I'm putting my faith in the state to be able to present the evidence in a cohesive manner, as I've seen many prosecution teams do.

Positive thoughts to the team prosecuting this defendant!

 

[Seattle1]

As defined in C.R.S. 24-11-101, the legal holidays for calendar year 2019 will be observed as follows:

[...]

Monday, November 11, 2019 Veterans Day

Thursday, November 28, 2019 Thanksgiving Day (4th Thursday in November)

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Calendar%20Year%202019%20Holiday%20Schedule.pdf

 

[iQuill]

Canada!

Alberta, Canada

 

[MassGuy]

As defined in C.R.S. 24-11-101, the legal holidays for calendar year 2019 will be observed as follows:

[...]

Monday, November 11, 2019 Veterans Day

Thursday, November 28, 2019 Thanksgiving Day (4th Thursday in November)

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Calendar%20Year%202019%20Holiday%20Schedule.pdf

If all goes according to plan, PF will be a convicted felon by Thanksgiving.

Last year he ate turkey while Kelsey’s battered body was stuffed in a tote.

This year he’ll be eating jailhouse slop with a spork.

 

[crhedBngr]

I never said the jury would not convict. Im very careful with my words so please be equally as careful when interpreting them.

I cant help Im a worry wort. I do want the prosecution to succeed and like I mentioned I do think there is enough other evidence in this case to do so even without KK.

"Like has been discussed before, we know the prosecution has other evidence that should show PF as guilty.

I just hope they are able to do that if for some reason the jury decides, amongst themselves, that they are going to disregard all testimony from KK."

RBBM

From one worry wort to another - I understand completely. I'll be holding my breath until I hear that "guilty" verdict.

JMVHO.

 

[Madeleine74]

The state has plenty of evidence to prove guilt BARD. The exhibits will number well over 100 by the time this case goes to the jury.

Looking forward to seeing...errr...hearing after the fact how this unfolds.