Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160
Not sure where you got this idea as the research on serial killers does not even remotely support this contention. In fact, research indicates that the mean IQ of serial killers is average to below average (see Eric Hickey, Serial Murders and their Victims, 2006).
 
For me, it is worth it if it stops this- or catches a perp- I also believe it is easy enough to track- they don't just cough over reward cash without reviewing the claimant- Also, KARMA..
Ah, karma! I do hold stock in that.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
Not sure where you got this idea as the research on serial killers does not even remotely support this contention. In fact, research indicates that the mean IQ of serial killers is average to below average (see Eric Hickey, Serial Murders and their Victims, 2006).

Shadow- I was referring to the "organized variety" of serial killers, which I think by all accounts we would agree if that is who is responsible, their MO would match vs. disorganized- However, I meant 120+, not 160, so that was my error. My point was that I did not think the perp profile here is either disorganized or thoughtless as they poster indicated. Thanks for the correction.
Ted Bundy 120-140 depending upon who was testing
Michael Ross 122
Joel Rifkin 128

From Wiki:
Organized/Nonsocial Offenders are usually of high intelligence, have an above average IQ (120+ range), and plan their crimes quite methodically, usually abducting victims, killing them in one place and disposing of them in another. They will often lure the victims with ploys appealing to their sense of sympathy. For example, Ted Bundy would put his arm in a fake plaster cast and ask women to help him carry something to his car, where he would beat them unconscious with a metal bar (e.g. a crowbar), and carry them away. Others specifically target prostitutes, who are likely to voluntarily go with a serial killer posing as a customer. They maintain a high degree of control over the crime scene, and usually have a solid knowledge of forensic science that enables them to cover their tracks, such as by burying the body or weighing it down and sinking it in a river. They follow their crimes in the media carefully and often take pride in their actions, as if it were a grand project. The organized killer is usually socially adequate, has friends and lovers, and sometimes even a spouse and children. They are the type who, when captured, are most likely to be described by acquaintances as kind and unlikely to hurt anyone. Some serial killers go to lengths to make their crimes difficult to discover, such as falsifying suicide notes, setting up others to take the blame for their crimes, and faking gang warfare or natural deaths. Coral Watts, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy are well-known examples of this type of serial killer.
 
I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.
 
I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.

They could be unconscious when they are placed into the water? It's early morning hours and no one around?

See the Indiana thread. There's an interesting post, 2nd or 3rd I believe. A letter from a mother of a student who MAY have been one who 'got away.'

Hope this helps,
fran
 
The thing with fresh water drowning is that very little, maybe a teaspoon to a tablespoon of water is in the lungs are death. This to me leaves options available, meaning these young men could've been so drugged and so sedated that placed in water, within time, just the current washing over them could have caused death by drowning. Prior to that, I believe, they went through heinous mental and physical torture.
 
As far as intelligence goes within these groups, I believe that at the top you have very intelligent, very organized perps..who oversee this whole nationwide network and are in collaboration with each other. The people who actually carry out the abductions are less informed and simply followers, maybe even paid to kidnap, who are very adept at these things and doing what they are told. In the middle comes more followers participating in the ritual deaths of these young men. All hoping to up their status within the group.
 
I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.

If your dead or unconscious from GHB, there isn't much of a scuffle. slowly lowering a bidy into ice water at 4:00 a.m. can be done quietly
 
SuziQ- sorry that I bailed so quickly without responding...had lost track of time...there just seemed to be so much tension on the board...I couldn't figure out why.

I don't think SL was really out for any reward...just being sarcastic I suppose. No room for that here.

Obviously I'm not out for "reward money". Through a friend I've sent helpful info to a family member. My profile of the killers was posted here several days before Gannons which matched mine to a t. Angry, Stupid, Evil Morons is the profile. The best help for the detectives is pictures from inside of any bars on any nights these kids were abducted. Older retired detectives from NYC tend to like the chase and the hunt; the real investigation. They like to be out there in the woods more than searching the internet. If the evil morons are stupid enough to be committing the crimes starting from within the bars; then there's a slim chance a kid might be caught in photos from different bars on the same night that a kid died. I have nothing more to offer except that a kid who drives drunk and crashes is most likely not connected; neither are video games or books made or written after 1997 when the crimes began(if they are connected). I'm trying to help, I know what I'm doing and have a good understanding of the criminal mind, but I'm the combative type. Thats all; I need a week off now
 
They could be unconscious when they are placed into the water? It's early morning hours and no one around?

See the Indiana thread. There's an interesting post, 2nd or 3rd I believe. A letter from a mother of a student who MAY have been one who 'got away.'

Hope this helps,
fran


thanks fran. so the bartender is responsible for spiking that kids drink. and he has a small group at the bar that are in on it too. that would pretty much make it random selection of victim. ie; how in the world did the bartender know that "joe blow" was going to be in the bar drinking THAT night? perhaps some of the crimes are random and some are targeted. who knows.
interesting story posted by the mom, thanks again
 
If your dead or unconscious from GHB, there isn't much of a scuffle. slowly lowering a bidy into ice water at 4:00 a.m. can be done quietly

ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.
 
Obviously I'm not out for "reward money". Through a friend I've sent helpful info to a family member. My profile of the killers was posted here several days before Gannons which matched mine to a t. Angry, Stupid, Evil Morons is the profile. The best help for the detectives is pictures from inside of any bars on any nights these kids were abducted. Older retired detectives from NYC tend to like the chase and the hunt; the real investigation. They like to be out there in the woods more than searching the internet. If the evil morons are stupid enough to be committing the crimes starting from within the bars; then there's a slim chance a kid might be caught in photos from different bars on the same night that a kid died. I have nothing more to offer except that a kid who drives drunk and crashes is most likely not connected; neither are video games or books made or written after 1997 when the crimes began(if they are connected). I'm trying to help, I know what I'm doing and have a good understanding of the criminal mind, but I'm the combative type. Thats all; I need a week off now
Ok-SL-now I am confused...I thought you were away this weekend.
FYI- most cameras are on a loop...generally a limited number of hours...before they are taped over. These bodies are usually not found for some time. Checking out bars' cameras months later won't be of much use IMO. It would be different if they could target a bar that has been associated with multiple disappearances, but that's not the case. Also, the detectives asked for help funding their investigation. If you think they need more help in searching the internet, perhaps money could be sent that's earmarked for setting up a special "division" to do just that. We've also recently discussed that the detectives demeanor belies their words. Perhaps, they are trying to flush out the killers some how?
 
ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.
Arizona...that's been discussed. I believe the premise to be they're unconscious at the time of entry into the water. Or they're being held down in the water. I've been going over some pictures of these rivers where the bodies have been found, pretty scary bodies of water. Though we don't know all points of entry, and yes, some of these rivers/bodies of water have been close to where the victims were last seen, many of the bodies of water were a way off and I just find it difficult to believe that some of these victims wandered off to these very scary places and decided to walk into them in the dead of night!
 
Arizona...that's been discussed. I believe the premise to be they're unconscious at the time of entry into the water. Or they're being held down in the water. I've been going over some pictures of these rivers where the bodies have been found, pretty scary bodies of water. Though we don't know all points of entry, and yes, some of these rivers/bodies of water have been close to where the victims were last seen, many of the bodies of water were a way off and I just find it difficult to believe that some of these victims wandered off to these very scary places and decided to walk into them in the dead of night!

This is something that makes me wonder as well. I don't know about many of these places but I do know that certain areas of the Mississippi are hard enough to walk to sober on a sunny day let alone drunk enough to "accidentally" stumble into the river in the dark. Some parts are so wooded you hardly feel like you're in the middle of the city.
 
I feel for the family or families being contacted by anyone here with lame theories. We don't do that for the simple reason they are in such an emotional place and to add to their pain is unneccessary plus highly irresponsible.

It is even worse that they could consider this something that WS members are responsible for doing! Just in a time where WS is being recognized in so many areas for the good work we do, having someone come in and prey upon the families is wrong on so many levels. It isn't the way we do things nor should we sit by and allow other members to prey on the families of victims.

I have gotten to the point where I don't care to put out ideas because of the situation here. I would hate to think it has come to this, but as you can clearly see...whatever we do come up with...is being used for less than credible, personal purposes. It needs to stop.

We can't stop trolls, but we can quit feeding them.
 
Ok-SL-now I am confused...I thought you were away this weekend.
FYI- most cameras are on a loop...generally a limited number of hours...before they are taped over. These bodies are usually not found for some time. Checking out bars' cameras months later won't be of much use IMO. It would be different if they could target a bar that has been associated with multiple disappearances, but that's not the case. Also, the detectives asked for help funding their investigation. If you think they need more help in searching the internet, perhaps money could be sent that's earmarked for setting up a special "division" to do just that. We've also recently discussed that the detectives demeanor belies their words. Perhaps, they are trying to flush out the killers some how?

To expand on RR's very good point. One of the major mistakes in these investigtions is exactly how they ar handled from the onset.. ie: in the case of Nick Garza, and others, there is a common LE attitude that these kids wither contributed to their own situation and they lag in opening a mp investigation. OR, and has been recently addressed in some of the newer cases, the MP case NEVER turns into a potential criminal investigation.
Reason- there is no obvious evidence of foul play. This has critically wounded any attempts to USE immediate available evidence (footage from bars/nightclubs before it copies over) question and/or find bar participants, utilize on-scene evidence, etc.. I hope that one of the outcomes of these cases is that the way MP cases are handled in this country is radically changed.
 
ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.

It is possible to drown close to immediately if you are already unconscious when going into the water. Additionally GHB is nearly undetectable after I think 8 hours, TOD is unrelated. Several vics had very little water in the lungs, and the Coroner (most cases- this is a whole 'nother issue if you ask me). The accidental drowning becomes more of an exclusionary COD based on absence of any other, which unfortunately is correct under the finding of fact.
 
Guys and Gals, I am in a big rush and I apologize if this has been posted earlier, I can't go thru the thread thoroughly right now, and frankly, what I have read in #4 I just don't understand what is going on!!!!!!!!! :blowkiss: Yes I'm slow.

But here is my tidbit, from an AP story, it is about the Russian ice dancer who was drugged with a drug LIKE GHB but different:

~snip~ abcnews.go.com:

Deputies initially said Grishuk's drinks had been spiked with the date-rape drug GHB. On Friday, Amormino said the drug was Nimetazepam, which is similar to GHB but usually found in Asia and Europe.


You know, toxicology isn't "magic." It doesn't automatically test the tissue/water/whatever and spit out EVERY CHEMICAL in there. They test for certain things.

I bet you a bright shiny Euro they are not testing for this horrible Asia/Europe version of the date-rape drug!!!! OMG will the bad guys ever stop inventing things to hurt others???

Well it's got me thinking...

Ta 'till later, stay safe everyone...
 
Again, SL...you are wrong about the tasers or stun guns not leaving visible marks. We did the research already quote]

You sure I'm wrong? As far as I know tasers often leave no marks and sometimes they leave just tiny pin pricks. If you have a friend who's a cop ask him or her. Sometimes its beter than a google search; or research google for words like maybe taser leave no marks. As I know it, for the sadistic cop; they've replaced the baton because you can torture and leave almost no sign of torture. And for autopsies of bodies pulled out of ice water; "no trauma" means no broken bones or major bruises, but do you think a couple of tiny pin pricks from a taser would be noticed? As I said; I think GHB was the drug of choice in these drownings, but I also think a taser is possible if some of these kids were abducted off the street. Its been nice talking with you and your lady friends; I'm leaving town for the weekend; so have a nice weekend


I put forth the stun gun idea way back, and it was also shot down.

But I do think my fellow WSers are wrong :blowkiss: about the marks, they can be EXTREMELY light and they can also be obliterated in the water very quickly! Remember that many of these guys are not found for a long time. Stun Guns could certainly be used. This is from the horses' mouths, my LE neighbors. They actually SHOT one another with Tasers and used Stun Guns on each other as part of their SWAT training. They also ate raw chicken but that's another story. I still think stun guns are "in" the realm of possibility, along with the drugging.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
60
Guests online
1,734
Total visitors
1,794

Forum statistics

Threads
605,255
Messages
18,184,751
Members
233,285
Latest member
Slowcrow
Back
Top