Snoofo
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JMO but witness one could be part of the scheme. He was an integral part to identifying DM. Plus, we dont know the phone was DM's for a fact.
Dellen Millard: Innocent Dupe? Alternative Theories
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Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #3- Latest: Charlot123
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JMO but witness one could be part of the scheme. He was an integral part to identifying DM. Plus, we dont know the phone was DM's for a fact.
Is it not possible to follow someone you wanted to frame for a while, watch their activities, and when you see an opportunity to strike, take advantage of that opportunity? It is very possible and frankly even likely, in my opinion, that DM and MS and even a third person were there to test drive the vehicle being offered for sale by TB because they legitimately wanted to purchase a vehicle. That would also match with the fact that they had gone on a previous test drive and had tried to make an appointment for a third, legitimately. They could have a easily have gone on the test drive, one way to Brantford with the buddy following in the Yukon, said 'Thanks, we'll think about it" and DM and MS got back into the Yukon with the Mysterious 3rd suspect and gone about their business, and TB could have been stopped by the person who wanted to frame DM on the way back to his home at any point along his journey home.
My point being, that then both the RBEG and SB would both be able to identify DM and MS honestly, and still honestly not be identifying the murderer, so tattoos and hoodies wouldn't matter. Which would again explain why they didn't disguise themselves and both went to the door to be identified later when one would suffice.
Alethea Dice
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That could be too. I read it the other way because MSM already knew the length of the lease, the approximate annual cost of the lease and how much Millard Air paid in servicing costs. DM had already met with CW in March to discuss future plans, including a new tenant or a different commercial business. That sounds to me like he was trying to salvage whatever he could from the investment that had been put into the hangar. I could see the airport wanting to release the lease, so that they could re-lease to a new company with the hangar already there and ready for business.
http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/activity-at-millard-air-hangar-not-what-airport-boss-expected-1.1302652
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How would this unknown person know when/where the test drive was arranged and what route they would all take when they left Tims, and what route Tim would take back from Brantford? How was this unknown person/vehicle following DM and MS all the way from Toronto to Ancaster, and then follow Tims truck and the Yukon all the way from Tims to Brantford and on his way back home without someone seeing a 3rd vehicle on surveillance. Did this 3rd vehicle/person lie in wait somewhere between Tims and Brantford, and really luck in that they took this route where the 3rd person/vehicle happened to be? Did 3rd person/vehicle then drive back to Brantford to dispose of Tims phone? How does the 2nd victim/suspect factor into this scenario if he has now honestly identified DM and MS?
Sorry ... IMO, no reasonable doubt in my mind at this point in time.
I think the point is that the murderer was/is an 'insider' who was well aware of what was happening. Then of course you have the other theory..... DM's phone was tapped..... large organizations would have this 'ability' IMO
Yes, it is possible to follow people without them knowing all the time, some people are actually trained to do this, are they not? And yes, I am assuming the killer in this scenario could have easily laid in wait for TB and or TB and DM to return. Would it be so hard to guess that they would be coming back the same way that they left? Or, these days, I imagine it is cheap and easy to stick a little electronic monitoring device on DM's truck if someone were going to go through all that trouble, and monitor his position on a GPS from a safe distance, this is the 21st century after all. And the phone drop is just as on the way for the killer in this scenario as it is for DM, so anyone could have dropped the phone there at any time. But seeing as how the ride to Brantford is only 20 mins and the phone was turned off much later than that it suggests to me that TB had his phone for much longer. Anyone DM & MS's age would have thought of the cell phone pretty quickly in my opinion, after all, when was the last time you saw someone under 30 who could go 5 minutes without checking their cell phone. To me there is plenty of reasonable doubt there in many areas of this case.
Snoofo
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True enough. Those deets are typically not in the registered Notice.
It is near impossible for the landlord to get out of the long term lease without special provisions. It would have to be default by tenant for non payment, illegal activity, or something like that. Theyd be crazy not to try to get out of that. WM earned low rent by building the hangwr IMO.
No one seems to doubt DM and MS were on the test drive with TB - interesting. As SB asked, how do you suppose another vehicle escaped notice on camera?
By either using electronic surveillance as I mentioned above where you could be a safe enough distance away to just look like another car happening to go the same way. Or by laying in wait near TBs residence after seeing that it is just another test drive and that the driver would eventually be back. Or by having/doing both, so that you'd know DM had moved on in another direction after a stop long enough to change vehicles, and could assume that the test drive owner was on his was home by the same route, and know approximately when to expect him because you saw how long it took to travel there and can then estimate the same time back. Simple math and technology I could easily buy.
Snoofo
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I've doubted it in one of the many scenarios. I'm not sure I've convinced myself this is the case but SB's description of the perps was pretty vague so I am going to assume it was dark and she didn't have a very good view. I have seen a picture on AM's FB pages of a friend who could very easily pass for DM in the wrong lighting. I'm not saying this particular person posed as DM (and I'm not saying he didn't) but it led me to think DM looks like a LOT of guys out there. Wouldn't be too difficult to find an imposter within a group of thugs who could pass for him in bad lighting.
I've doubted just about everything. By the same token, a percentage of the time I believe that the majority here are right and DM is responsible for the death of TB. It is possible. But it may not be right. I can't just think "it's so obvious" when there is way too much weirdness abound.
:moo:
Yes this is a strong possibility. Also someone DM knows could be in on it. Who dropped them off? Also I think it was you who mentioned a tracker device...which would have given DM's exact location. Add that to the mysterious burner phone and we have a strong case for interception of TB's truck at some point. Then add to that the fact that forensic evidence was burnt off of the body yet the other evidence was strategically placed at the door of DM, whoever murdered TB imo removed any possible forensic evidence of themselves and placed all material evidence pointing to DM.
swedie
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Shouldn't the speculation of AS being cause for the destruction of Millardair, be moved over here? This is the thread for that "theory" not under General Discussion.
Has anyone considered the possible theory of a motorcycle gang connection? Why would DM want to steal a HD, if he did? Could it have been for initiation status? Was he stealing it for one of the gang members? Was the murder of TB another step up the cooperate ladder for him? Motorcycle gangs are typically involved in drugs. This is how they make their big money. Were they using DM and his hangar to run their business out of? Afterall, that drug theory or suggestion was mentioned way back, and being DM was a pilot, they would find this a huge convenience for transporting their supplies via air.
Another aspect is, wasn't it mentioned somewhere DM may have been a regular at renting yachts? Could that have also for transporting illegal drugs across the waterways?
Something else very telling IMO and to also consider; his trips to Mexico. Were the purpose of these trips to smuggle drugs in or out of Mexico? Yes it is highly risky, but many people take chance, especially where money is lucrative. After all, DM could have been a multimillionaire and had friends or associates doing the dirty work for him of the actual border crossing. He may have gone along in a separate vehicle to make sure the jobs were being carried out correctly and no one was trying to rip him off.
I guess we should look at all possibilities brought forth because something just doesn't seem right with the theory of two guys wanting to test drive a truck. An innocent family man gets murdered and now those two guys are sitting in a hell hole, being wrongly accused. There just has to be another side to this case. Why would DM, a highly intelligent, humble, wealthy 27 year old guy, decide with his low life petty criminal friend, go out and murder someone over a truck when DM could buy brand new? There has got to be someone out there who has framed DM at least. MS was into petty crime but he might have felt like stepping it up a notch and found someone who resembled DM to go out with him that night to help him carry out this heinous crime. Was MS being used by DM and not being paid for his services? Did MS frame DM? Maybe MS planted TB's body on DM's farmland. Was MS jealous of DM and his wealth? Did MS resent DM because DM didn't buy him a jet ski or other toys he was showering other friends with? Hmm, time will tell. Until then we can sleuth until the cows come home and I don't believe we will have those answers until trial time. Yep JMHO and I'm entitled to it.
Has anyone considered the possible theory of a motorcycle gang connection? Why would DM want to steal a HD, if he did? Could it have been for initiation status? Was he stealing it for one of the gang members? Was the murder of TB another step up the cooperate ladder for him? Motorcycle gangs are typically involved in drugs. This is how they make their big money. Were they using DM and his hangar to run their business out of? Afterall, that drug theory or suggestion was mentioned way back, and being DM was a pilot, they would find this a huge convenience for transporting their supplies via air.
Another aspect is, wasn't it mentioned somewhere DM may have been a regular at renting yachts? Could that have also for transporting illegal drugs across the waterways?
Something else very telling IMO and to also consider; his trips to Mexico. Were the purpose of these trips to smuggle drugs in or out of Mexico? Yes it is highly risky, but many people take chance, especially where money is lucrative. After all, DM could have been a multimillionaire and had friends or associates doing the dirty work for him of the actual border crossing. He may have gone along in a separate vehicle to make sure the jobs were being carried out correctly and no one was trying to rip him off.
I guess we should look at all possibilities brought forth because something just doesn't seem right with the theory of two guys wanting to test drive a truck. An innocent family man gets murdered and now those two guys are sitting in a hell hole, being wrongly accused. There just has to be another side to this case. Why would DM, a highly intelligent, humble, wealthy 27 year old guy, decide with his low life petty criminal friend, go out and murder someone over a truck when DM could buy brand new? There has got to be someone out there who has framed DM at least. MS was into petty crime but he might have felt like stepping it up a notch and found someone who resembled DM to go out with him that night to help him carry out this heinous crime. Was MS being used by DM and not being paid for his services? Did MS frame DM? Maybe MS planted TB's body on DM's farmland. Was MS jealous of DM and his wealth? Did MS resent DM because DM didn't buy him a jet ski or other toys he was showering other friends with? Hmm, time will tell. Until then we can sleuth until the cows come home and I don't believe we will have those answers until trial time. Yep JMHO and I'm entitled to it.
Snoofo
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That's the spirit, Swedie! All the things you mentioned are possibilities. You are correct though, we can sleuth all we want.... But we have to wait for the truth and i hope it will come out.
Something isn't right for sure. notwithstanding what position I may appear to take here, I won't be shocked if DM is guilty but I will be shocked if there isn't much more coming out of this story. I do believe his lawyer DP, when he said there are layers to this.
I have to say regarding AS and your first comment above, the other thread is called "general discussion and theories".
Although we have yet to see any evidence that DM was into motorcycles, I would still consider motorcycle gangs a form of OC. I really appreciate what seems like stepping outside the conventional thinking and giving other possibilities a chance (unless this was sarcasm; I didn't think it was, but I have been accused of being a bit if a Sheldon or a Spock and failing to see when people are using sarcasm), I think once someone allows that there are other possibilities, a lot of other possibilities come to light.
I don't know if a lot of Canadian drugs are smuggled into Mexico, I think they have a lot of the same things we do but cheaper. And as for smuggling drugs back into Canada via auto, first you have to pass through US customs, before you go through Canadian customs, and they are both definitely going to give a hard look at someone with a huge truck, huge trailer, oh, and a pink Mohawk. Generally, from what I gather, smugglers try and look as inconspicuous and average as possible. And why do it the hard way? If you can fly a plane, why not just take drugs back and forth in your plane and go straight from Canada to Mexico and avoid US customs? Same thing with boating, why stop at more borders than you need to when you could go directly. I think they really did just go down there to try and race in the Baja for fun, and i know a lot of wealthy people like to sail (or should I say can afford to, it's a very expensive hobby).
I have been thinking about why DM and MS have kept silent (as far as we know; if this was turning into a sting on a form of OC, we would also be told the same thing, in my opinion). I think that if I were completely innocent and yet the police just pulled me over one day and accused me of committing a heinous crime, the first thing I'd ask was 'what am I being accused off?' And when I was told it was that I kidnapped and murdered the man I had a test drive with Monday night, and I know I didn't, I would be very quietly trying to go through the event in my mind and trying to see how that could possibly be if I know it not to be true. It would be truly baffling. Then they would ask where TB is, and if you have no idea, what are you going to say, and again, I would be thinking furiously if that was me, trying to listen to what the police are saying with their questions so that I can piece together what would seem to be a huge misunderstanding, so silence would be understandable here too. Next the police would be hounding you to know who was with you when you did this. If you know or at least firmly believe the the friends that you had with you that night are as innocent of this as you are from what you recall, why on earth would you drag them into the same situation you are now going though? Wouldn't you hope instead that they have seen what has happened to you and are trying to gather evidence to prove you all are innocent before they are arrested too?
Or even if you think that one of your friends might have done this to you, and framed you for it, how do you know which one? Who do you throw under the bus? Or if you suspect it is a form of OC, but all you've ever seen is a big guy with a sideways nose (stereotyping for illustrative purposes) who visited a couple of times to threaten you mildly, that you cannot really describe and might sound unbelievable, the best thing to do would be to say nothing again. There are a lot of reasons to keep your mouth shut, especially if you know you don't really have any information that can help because you really are innocent.
swedie
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A couple articles to consider in regards to OC. MCG and Mafia. HTH
The organizations have a hierarchical structure. Committing crimes is left to new recruits while those higher up reap the rewards.
The hierarchical structure allows the leaders to operate with impunity while flaunting their image of power to attract recruits and draw them into crime.
It is difficult for law-enforcement agencies to infiltrate these organizations because becoming a member involves committing crimes. North American clubs also tend to require their members to own American-made bikes, often Harley-Davidsons.
In Canada, the Angels are believed to have 460 full-fledged members and 34 chapters, according to 2009 estimates by the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/04/01/f-biker-gangs.html
The veteran police officer said Mafia-controlled legitimate businesses in his region include everything from garden centres to financial institutions to banquet halls.
"They need these businesses to launder criminal proceeds," Amato said. "It also allows them to explain their wealth ... you can mask it in a business where you can hide your illegitimate wealth."
During the hearing on Thursday, Amato described how the Italian mafia has “franchised” itself across the globe. He called Toronto an open city for criminals – a reputation Montreal held in the 1950s.
Former RCMP chief superintendent Ben Soave told the Toronto Star earlier this week that organized crime has infiltrated Ontario, and now has as tight a grasp in that province as it does in Quebec.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ndrang...-toronto-inquiry-hears-1.964462#ixzz2ZnsaHszk
The organizations have a hierarchical structure. Committing crimes is left to new recruits while those higher up reap the rewards.
The hierarchical structure allows the leaders to operate with impunity while flaunting their image of power to attract recruits and draw them into crime.
It is difficult for law-enforcement agencies to infiltrate these organizations because becoming a member involves committing crimes. North American clubs also tend to require their members to own American-made bikes, often Harley-Davidsons.
In Canada, the Angels are believed to have 460 full-fledged members and 34 chapters, according to 2009 estimates by the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/04/01/f-biker-gangs.html
The veteran police officer said Mafia-controlled legitimate businesses in his region include everything from garden centres to financial institutions to banquet halls.
"They need these businesses to launder criminal proceeds," Amato said. "It also allows them to explain their wealth ... you can mask it in a business where you can hide your illegitimate wealth."
During the hearing on Thursday, Amato described how the Italian mafia has “franchised” itself across the globe. He called Toronto an open city for criminals – a reputation Montreal held in the 1950s.
Former RCMP chief superintendent Ben Soave told the Toronto Star earlier this week that organized crime has infiltrated Ontario, and now has as tight a grasp in that province as it does in Quebec.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ndrang...-toronto-inquiry-hears-1.964462#ixzz2ZnsaHszk
If I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned that DM and MS had a friend that was a make-up artist. Rather than finding look-alikes, perhaps another 'insider' had latex masks made up, like on 'Mission Impossible'.
I really hope that this thread is not going to be locked from serious discussion again for those who are trying to sleuth this out from this angle by those who mock our theories. I personally enjoy a mature dialogue with those who have something to add to our theories by picking holes in them, because that gives us thought, and often those thoughts lead to a way or two to plug those holes with logic. But it would be a shame for some people here to feel that they are constantly under attack from those who are merely intent on undermining our efforts to possibly help to free an innocent man with our sleuthing.
Coldpizza
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This thread won't be locked as long as people that have not been named in MSM as POI's or suspects are discussed in that mind set period.
Here is a reminder for those who haven't had a chance to read:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65798"]Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
No one is under attack here and if you feel that way please feel free to contact the mod of your choice to voice your concerns.
Thank you
Juballee, in this scenario, might there not also be the possibility that this 3rd suspect - an insider - could have alerted an accomplice(s) that TB was on his way back home or, possibly, even stayed with TB in his vehicle after DM and MS had left? I suggest an insider because this person possibly had access to the hangar and also knew the location of both DM's mother's house and his farm. MOO. Possibly he only thought the plan was for his pal(s) to hi-jack the truck, though, not murder TB. MOO. IMO.
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