Dellen Millard: Innocent Dupe? Alternative Theories

[Juballee]

BBM

MOO, but these are precisely the posts I refer to when I say it is suggesting that LE is crooked, and is trying to frame DM. Why would they want to "plant" evidence?

So many people here<modsnip> have put forth the idea of bad apples and crooked cops, that perhaps I should try the theory on for size too?

What I was getting at is that, the reason that we have warrants is so that evidence found in a search is admissible, from what I understand. The reason it is forbidden to tread on potential crime scenes without a warrant, from what I gather then, is to ensure that evidence is not contaminated from outside sources, making susceptible to tampering with. Not every bottle of aspirin that has a broken seal is poisoned, but we throw the bottle out anyway just to be safe, are courts not that careful as well?

 

[Blomquist]

BBM

MOO, but these are precisely the posts I refer to when I say it is suggesting that LE is crooked, and is trying to frame DM. Why would they want to "plant" evidence?

LE can and do plant evidence IMO... I think if you google search you will find quite a few examples. <modsnip>

 

[Blomquist]

So many people here<modsnip> have put forth the idea of bad apples and crooked cops, that perhaps I should try the theory on for size too?

What I was getting at is that, the reason that we have warrants is so that evidence found in a search is admissible, from what I understand. The reason it is forbidden to tread on potential crime scenes without a warrant, from what I gather then, is to ensure that evidence is not contaminated from outside sources, making susceptible to tampering with. Not every bottle of aspirin that has a broken seal is poisoned, but we throw the bottle out anyway just to be safe, are courts not that careful as well?

I would say the trailer and truck were contaminated before the warrant judging by the evidence so far. JMO I also wouldn't be surprised if MB's house had a 'walk through' around about that time. JMO

I am guessing that the vehicle used to bring the trailer/truck to MB's would be a similar truck as was stolen and I am thinking probably in a very basic colour that would not stand out, say black or dark grey/charcoal. Most larger trucks like that which I see are dark colours so IMO a white/red or pale truck is more identifiable JMO

 

[Juballee]

I would say the trailer and truck were contaminated before the warrant judging by the evidence so far. JMO I also wouldn't be surprised if MB's house had a 'walk through' around about that time. JMO

I am guessing that the vehicle used to bring the trailer/truck to MB's would be a similar truck as was stolen and I am thinking probably in a very basic colour that would not stand out, say black or dark grey/charcoal. Most larger trucks like that which I see are dark colours so IMO a white/red or pale truck is more identifiable JMO

My guess would be a black pick up truck similar to the one that was seen stealing the Harley last November. But I think you are right that black seems to be the most common colour of pick up truck, at least from what I have noticed personally.

 

[Archangel7]

So many people here<modsnip> have put forth the idea of bad apples and crooked cops, that perhaps I should try the theory on for size too?

What I was getting at is that, the reason that we have warrants is so that evidence found in a search is admissible, from what I understand. The reason it is forbidden to tread on potential crime scenes without a warrant, from what I gather then, is to ensure that evidence is not contaminated from outside sources, making susceptible to tampering with. Not every bottle of aspirin that has a broken seal is poisoned, but we throw the bottle out anyway just to be safe, are courts not that careful as well?

BBM

In Canada it doesn't matter how the evidence was obtained(search and seizure) in order to be admissible, within a few restrictions, considerations and exceptions.

In Canada, police can enter your home(dwelling) without a warrant and secure evidence(drugs in this example)then obtain a warrant and the evidence be admissible.

R vs Silveira is the SCC case, I believe, and was dismissed(the appellant Silveira lost)

http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1256/index.do

On the crime scene....people trod on the crime scene constantly during an investigation. They have an App for that.
It's called keeping up with who in the agency enters and leaves and when. Thus any "extra evidence" is either original or it matches a forensic officer, detective, patrol cop, etc., whomever has permission to be inside the crime zone.

 

[Alethea Dice]

BBM

In Canada it doesn't matter how the evidence was obtained(search and seizure) in order to be admissible, within a few restrictions, considerations and exceptions.

In Canada, police can enter your home(dwelling) without a warrant and secure evidence(drugs in this example)then obtain a warrant and the evidence be admissible.

R vs Silveira is the SCC case, I believe, and was dismissed(the appellant Silveira lost)

http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1256/index.do

On the crime scene....people trod on the crime scene constantly during an investigation. They have an App for that.
It's called keeping up with who in the agency enters and leaves and when. Thus any "extra evidence" is either original or it matches a forensic officer, detective, patrol cop, etc., whomever has permission to be inside the crime zone.

rbbm

When police can enter your home without a warrant or permission:

http://www.cleo.on.ca/en/publications/polpower/what-urgent-situations-can-police-enter-my-home

http://www.criminaltriallawyers.ca/?q=know-your-rights

 

[Juballee]

BBM

In Canada it doesn't matter how the evidence was obtained(search and seizure) in order to be admissible, within a few restrictions, considerations and exceptions.

In Canada, police can enter your home(dwelling) without a warrant and secure evidence(drugs in this example)then obtain a warrant and the evidence be admissible.

R vs Silveira is the SCC case, I believe, and was dismissed(the appellant Silveira lost)

http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1256/index.do

On the crime scene....people trod on the crime scene constantly during an investigation. They have an App for that.
It's called keeping up with who in the agency enters and leaves and when. Thus any "extra evidence" is either original or it matches a forensic officer, detective, patrol cop, etc., whomever has permission to be inside the crime zone.

That is very informative, please explain why they would be waiting for Monday for the warrant, or is that a media error, in your opinion? I find that confusing still. Is it not possible to get a warrant on the weekend for a major case in Canada?

 

[Archangel7]

That is very informative, please explain why they would be waiting for Monday for the warrant, or is that a media error, in your opinion? I find that confusing still. Is it not possible to get a warrant on the weekend for a major case in Canada?

I honestly don't have enough info to give you a reason. Here(ON) you can even phone in a Telewarrant, which is even more convenient.

Maybe it was considered an exigent circumstance, sort of a "hot pursuit" find TB, safety of TB oriented entry? I would need to understand the situation before I could guess why they entered without a warrant(if they actually and factually did), MSM is pretty pitiful in journalistic aptitude based on what they publish. and I read.

I personally detest the fact that evidence can be used on and above the "poison fruit" theory. Get a warrant/Get the evidence or don't allow it in court. Justice disrepute be damned......I submit that Justice's reputation is irreversibly damaged every time the Queen's Bench allows ill gotten evidence without a proper warrant.

IMO the cops here should get a warrant first, EVERYTIME, with TRUE exigent circumstances excluded of course.

Either we have a Charter and US Constitution or we don't. The search and seizure laws are to DETER the full force of the enforcement arm of the Province, State and Feds, not to negotiate afterwards in Court.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I personally detest the fact that evidence can be used on and above the "poison fruit" theory. Get a warrant/Get the evidence or don't allow it in court. Justice disrepute be damned......I submit that Justice's reputation is irreversibly damaged every time the Queen's Bench allows ill gotten evidence without a proper warrant.

IMO the cops here should get a warrant first, EVERYTIME, with TRUE exigent circumstances excluded of course.

Either we have a Charter and US Constitution or we don't. The search and seizure laws are to DETER the full force of the enforcement arm of the Province, State and Feds, not to negotiate afterwards in Court.

rsbm

I knew we'd agree on something eventually.

 

[Archangel7]

rsbm

I knew we'd agree on something eventually.

There`s a saying about that kind of thing and great minds........:floorlaugh:

Read r v Silveira number 124 very carefully, especially the troubling last sentence.
That`s a SCC Justice writing that. I quote the article and the Justice`s writings.........

``However, had I found a Charter violation here, I would have agreed with my colleague Cory J.'s conclusion that the evidence should not be excluded under s. 24(2) of the Charter.``

http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1256/index.do

 

[dizzy1]

Doesn't say that she is a prosecution witness.... JMO


Crown is seeking order for non-publication of list of witnesses because "this is an ongoing investigation."
I would think it would have to be still ongoing...judging by the presumed lack of evidence JMO

MOO, but this quote about it being an "ongoing investigation" is from May 15 (DM's first court appearance). It has nothing to do with a "lack of evidence" IMO. By the way, who is "presuming" that there is a lack of evidence? I personally "presume" LE has quite a bit of evidence. JMO:moo:

 

[Blomquist]

That is very informative, please explain why they would be waiting for Monday for the warrant, or is that a media error, in your opinion? I find that confusing still. Is it not possible to get a warrant on the weekend for a major case in Canada?

It does appear to be a little more difficult to get a warrant on the weekend, but I don't understand why they did not adopt the view that someones life may be in danger or already have one.

I find it odd that DM was arrested on a 'tattoo' even before truck was found or 'body'... unlike the LE who has just been said to be charged with Murder 2 and can turn himself in after he returns from his vacation !!!!! now that's privilege imo

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/b...r-charge-in-streetcar-shooting-death-1.593186

'' Forcillo is the third to be charged with second-degree murder. One of the other officers was acquitted, while the second had his charge dismissed, though that decision is under appeal.''

Whats the bet this murderer gets acquitted or dismissed too.... moo

 

[Variant]

It does appear to be a little more difficult to get a warrant on the weekend, but I don't understand why they did not adopt the view that someones life may be in danger or already have one.

I find it odd that DM was arrested on a 'tattoo' even before truck was found or 'body'... unlike the LE who has just been said to be charged with Murder 2 and can turn himself in after he returns from his vacation !!!!! now that's privilege imo

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/b...r-charge-in-streetcar-shooting-death-1.593186

'' Forcillo is the third to be charged with second-degree murder. One of the other officers was acquitted, while the second had his charge dismissed, though that decision is under appeal.''

Whats the bet this murderer gets acquitted or dismissed too.... moo

Isn't Forcillo innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, just like DM?

 

[Blomquist]

Isn't Forcillo innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, just like DM?

Well there are are multiple videos of Forcillo actually killing the guy....so it's rather a different case don't you think ? If there was a video of whoever murdered TB, I think it would not be such a dilemma trying to figure out "who done it"

Forcillo has not protested his innocence, he was caught in the act ......

Yes he may have a trial, if its not dismissed before it gets out of the gate.... but video evidence will be shown in court..... and we have been made privy to a lot in this case as opposed to the TB where the silence is deafening.... JMO

 

[Variant]

Well there are are multiple videos of Forcillo actually killing the guy....so it's rather a different case don't you think ? If there was a video of whoever murdered TB, I think it would not be such a dilemma trying to figure out "who done it"

Forcillo has not protested his innocence, he was caught in the act ......

Yes he may have a trial, if its not dismissed before it gets out of the gate.... but video evidence will be shown in court..... and we have been made privy to a lot in this case as opposed to the TB where the silence is deafening.... JMO

We don't know the amount and quality of evidence LE has against DM, it may be just as stong as a video.

I am not a defender of Forcillo, but he does have his defenders just like DM has here, who claim that there has been a "rush to judgement" and that there is more to this case that should come out, in addition to the videos, in Forcillo's case.

They are both equal before the law until the trials are over IMO.

 

[swedie]

It does appear to be a little more difficult to get a warrant on the weekend, but I don't understand why they did not adopt the view that someones life may be in danger or already have one.

I find it odd that DM was arrested on a 'tattoo' even before truck was found or 'body'... unlike the LE who has just been said to be charged with Murder 2 and can turn himself in after he returns from his vacation !!!!! now that's privilege imo

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/b...r-charge-in-streetcar-shooting-death-1.593186

'' Forcillo is the third to be charged with second-degree murder. One of the other officers was acquitted, while the second had his charge dismissed, though that decision is under appeal.''

Whats the bet this murderer gets acquitted or dismissed too.... moo

BBM - It wasn't just the tattoo. The tattoo was part of the evidence released to the MSM with the hope that someone knowing anyone with a tattoo like that would call in tips. They had to start somewhere and the tattoo was the strongest IDing feature as opposed to the rest of the description. Believe me, it wasn't JUST the tattoo LE were going on. Once they had TB's phone, that one bit also helped to strengthen the case, and now they have a whole wealth of evidence to confirm they have the right perps behind bars. Just wait until trial, you will be amazed with what the Crown will present as evidence to nail the sickos to the wall. HTH :moo:

 

[Archangel7]

Well there are are multiple videos of Forcillo actually killing the guy....so it's rather a different case don't you think ? If there was a video of whoever murdered TB, I think it would not be such a dilemma trying to figure out "who done it"

Forcillo has not protested his innocence, he was caught in the act ......

Yes he may have a trial, if its not dismissed before it gets out of the gate.... but video evidence will be shown in court..... and we have been made privy to a lot in this case as opposed to the TB where the silence is deafening.... JMO

Not every justifiable lethal force threat encountered by LE needs lethal force.
There are sometimes alternative options/choices to lethal and justifiable force. Apparently the Constable didn't take one.

The Police seem to see no such dilemma in figuring out "who done it" in DM/MS case.

 

[Carli]

Not every justifiable lethal force threat encountered by LE needs lethal force.
There are sometimes alternative options/choices to lethal and justifiable force. Apparently the Constable didn't take one.

The Police seem to see no such dilemma in figuring out "who done it" in DM/MS case.

Thanks for that, Arch. Unfortunately I harbour little doubt that this officer will skate based on something. Stress of the job, maybe, personal problems, whatever. But what baffles me in this case is why on earth he did this in front of up to a dozen other police wandering in and out of the scene. And, as you say, there are alternative options and choices, so why didn't a single one of those other officers step up the plate and intervene? There seems to have been a dynamic at work here that feels quite troubling and I'd truly appreciate your more informed take on the subject. Many say there should be better training, especially in volatile mental health or substance abuse confrontations. Others worry that a new sense of invincibility is threatening LE interaction with the community at large. I'm not sure what the trouble is. OT to be sure and yet, also at the heart of the question, because when the public starts to doubt or disbelieve those entrusted with its LE, justice itself hangs in the balance. MOO. IMHO.

 

[Blomquist]

We don't know the amount and quality of evidence LE has against DM, it may be just as stong as a video.

I am not a defender of Forcillo, but he does have his defenders just like DM has here, who claim that there has been a "rush to judgement" and that there is more to this case that should come out, in addition to the videos, in Forcillo's case.

They are both equal before the law until the trials are over IMO.

Actually there are several videos not just one... so one can assume from various angles with sound.... Lots of eye witness evidence....

IMO it will probably get tossed out like most cop cases... JMO

 

[Blomquist]

BBM - It wasn't just the tattoo. The tattoo was part of the evidence released to the MSM with the hope that someone knowing anyone with a tattoo like that would call in tips. They had to start somewhere and the tattoo was the strongest IDing feature as opposed to the rest of the description. Believe me, it wasn't JUST the tattoo LE were going on. Once they had TB's phone, that one bit also helped to strengthen the case, and now they have a whole wealth of evidence to confirm they have the right perps behind bars. Just wait until trial, you will be amazed with what the Crown will present as evidence to nail the sickos to the wall. HTH :moo:

thanks for your opinion...... as always....good to see how others think..

hwow: