Did JR tell us "The Plan"?

[Nom de plume]

But, we know that BPD did not check “the garage & cars.” And, I see no reason why, if RDI, the Ramseys would think that they would. Certainly, if anything, they could expect BPD to search the house and to search it first. And, this is the reason why everyone who ever reported their child victim kidnapped (or missing) did so AFTER the victim’s body was disposed of.

Some people are fond of citing KISS and occam’s razor and such; well, here it is: the Ramseys reporting a kidnapping while the body was still in the house because they didn’t know that the body was still in the house.

If RDI, and if the original plan was to dispose of the body, then there is no reason to store the body anywhere but in the trunk of the car because no matter what, at some point, when they go to dispose of it, it needs to be in the car.
...

AK

BBM We do? Source please. I've never heard that they never searched there. If they searched the rest of the house, why not there too? If it's true they didn't, they sure should have!! With that War & Peace of RNs they should have searched that place attic to crawl space with a fine toothed comb! How ANYONE, especially a cop, could ever believe ANYONE but a family member (take your pick) wrote that laughable piece of garbage is beyond me....SMH.

Only a complete idiot would put their dead daughter's body in the trunk of their own car, in their own garage, then call 911. There's no way on earth to explain her being there if she's found. Oh did the boogie man put her there with the intent to steal their car along with their daughter? Please...NO ONE would believe that one! There was another way to explain her being where she was found, although it's a totally absurd and ridiculous explanation.

 

[chlban]

I agree that statement analysis is very important and revealing, even when suspects are deliberately trying to be deceptive, as their subconscious choice of words and phrasing often give them away

Yes there are certainly some very telling statements and lies in this case.

also think that, in the scenario for getting the body out of the house that I suggested earlier, it isn't clear exactly what JR and PR would have done with JBR's body. I suppose they could have been planning to take it onto the plane and actually on the journey with them, hidden in possibly a small aircraft carrier, or a suitcase, and then disposed of it somewhere at the other end. That way, a coroner wouldn't have been able to examine the body, as it wouldn't have been found. I also don't know what investigators would have made of this. So many unanswered questions

!

It is an interesting theory and does make some sense. On the surface it seems absurd for them to think they could just take off with the body, but the fact is, John seemed to really think he was going to be allowed to fly off on his little vacation even with his daughter "kidnapped". So, following that absurd thought, and considering their sense of self importance maybe they really did think they could pull it off.

Which of course begs the question what kind of parent would want to leave for their vacations with their daughter missing?

Sorry for another long and rambling post- hope some of it makes some sense. Only my own thoughts, of course

On the contrary, your posts have been very interesting and informative and thanks for the link, I can't wait to go through that theory. I haven't been here all that long myself, but welcome.

 

[Nom de plume]

Ok, here's another random thought (for RDIs):

What if there really was supposed to be a call that never came? Could they have set it up with someone else to call, posing as the SFF, in order for JR to get out of the house with "an adequate sized attaché" but that person decided not to get involved?

I've never thought about this before, but it would explain why they called with her body still in the house, and why that ridiculous phrase was included in the RN. (It's been shown that for that amount of cash, a very small container would suffice.) In this case, they wouldn't be depending on LE to leave them alone. JR could go down to the basement, return with that suitcase, and just walk right past them all with her stuffed in there.

Naturally, he'd expect to be followed by LE, at a "safe" distance of course. But they couldn't very well follow him if the "SFF" called back on a cell phone with further instructions to board his plane and take off now could they?

That phrase was included in the RN for some reason. This scenario would certainly explain it. It also explains why JR got so antsy, and possibly why he disappeared for a while. Calling the "SFF" to see why he hadn't called at the specified time? A little time and space to figure out what "Plan B" would need to be? Realizing his call wasn't coming at all, he "finds" her shortly after reappearing. It also explains why his cell phone was "lost". Couldn't have LE seeing that he'd made calls before & after the 911 call.

The more I think about this, the more I think it's likely what happened.

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi Nom de plume,

Good thinking- you could very well be on to something! Although the ransom note was very long and rambling, it's my gut instinct that, whether either John or Patsy wrote it, every phrase in it was included with some purpose, either for the note writer's other half, as a coded message about The Plan, or to confuse or even taunt the police. Your idea does make sense.

Basically, it seems that everyone has been scratching their heads and going round in circles for ages (or tearing their hair out!), trying to figure out how a 911 call, ransom note announcing a kidnapping and a body left in the house could possibly all fit together in one scenario, as they seem so contadictorary.

However, there are possible explanations, as we're all looking at on this thread, that could have a Ramsey plan that deliberately included all these elements in a deliberate plan, which was then thwarted by the behaviour of the police!

It may seem unbelievable that the oh so clever Ramsey's could have wrongly anticipated how the police would react, but this must have surely been the case, as demonstrated by the fact that John did clearly believe that he would still be allowed to take his flight and continue on his merry way!

Instead of being desperate to still meet up with his family on vacation, it seems more obvious that he was in fact desperate to get the body out of the house!

 

[ZBob]

Hi everyone,

Here's the link to the Kir Komrik file that I stumbled across!

http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jbrseedbykirkomrikv1-0.docx

I spent a couple of hours quickly going through this document and I must say the level of detail and analysis is very impressive and interesting. There also seem to be things in here (details) that I don't recall seeing in other books or on-line forums. These may or may not all be well supported, I did notice a few small items that contradicted other things I have seen that seem to be accepted as fact. I definitely got a bit confused near the end on the scenarios and a number of the event sequences and need to go back and re-read them as I was trying to get to the end quickly.

As it seems this document might not have been familiar to many (it doesn't seem to come up in direct/logical searches for Jonbenet information but seems to require Kir Komrik and Jonbenet Ramsey to both be used as search criteria), I would encourage those on this board with interest to look at it as I am certain you will find it interesting and it may generate some spirited discussion. It is extremely detailed.

 

[renah]

Personally i can see the Ramsey's with the plan to just go off on their very important vacation as planned, intending to keep in touch with bpd frequently & distraughtedly ... Lots of drama, tears from PR and impatient demands from JR. They might even have cut the cruise short because of their kidnapped child! (sarcasm) But then again, maybe not- The longer it took to "find" JB, the more time for any evidence to decay. They well knew that.

But regardless of WHEN they returned, perhaps the plan was to find their murdered daughter thrown into the house and play the scene as if the intruder killed maimed and murdered the child, then RE-broke in while they were away to leave her there for the parents to discover. And hell, they probably would have blamed it all on police incompentence. In their own eyes it certainly wasnt because of anything THEY'D done! That is the rule of arrogance and entitlement.

I totally think john has more than enough arrogance and distance/discontinuity from normal feelings to believe that he could pull this off. Im not so sure that Patsy did. What substituted was her wholehearted belief that money & Things can make everything right. Of course by extension that made her husband able to accomplish the same.

I dont believe she had any part in the murder and assault of her daughter. Im not even convinced of her involvement in the staging, and that includes the writing of the ransom note. I think she suffered greatly over both the loss of her daughter and the keeping of the secret. I also feel that her ever loving underwear husband manipulated patsy from the moment of his discovery of the crime, and that included making sure she was henceforth loaded up to the gills on various dumbing-down medication..

 

[Tadpole12]

BBM Because what's in them is on his mind so much? :dunno:

Hi everyone,

Here's the link to the Kir Komrik file that I stumbled across!

http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jbrseedbykirkomrikv1-0.docx

Heyya Scandigirl,

Welcome to the thread, as well as you, Anti-K!
and ty for the link.

edit: for some security reason my computer would not open the file,
found a cached version:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ykirkomrikv1-0.docx+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca


... gonna need some coffee...

 

[DeDee]

Hi everyone,

Here's the link to the Kir Komrik file that I stumbled across!

http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jbrseedbykirkomrikv1-0.docx

Thank you, Scandigirl. I spent the day reading the file.

The Kir Komrik text is loaded with interesting information mostly as it pertains to psychology. Several areas will need to be given more thought.

The information he offers about the photo developed from the R's camera is intriguing. KK believes, based on Patsy's interview, that a picture taken Christmas morning shows the RN tablet and 2 blank pages laid out on the iron staircase 24 hours before it was to appear there by the kidnapper.

From Patsy's 1998 interview:

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, from Priscilla.
18 That's another one of those legal pads.
19 TOM HANEY: Right.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Is that a (inaudible)
21 picture?
22 TOM HANEY: No.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: But this photo was not taken
25 after, this was on, it's a --
0527
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: -- similar photo to this one
3 here, but we're minus that.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: And probably minus the cleaning
6 fluid and we have some bags here.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
8 TOM HANEY: And that's photo 52 that we're
9 comparing it to.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Is that cleaning stuff over
11 there?
12 TOM HANEY: Hard to see. It could be the
13 same, but I'm not sure. Okay.
14 That photo 52 was taken by the police.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Oh, God. [Patsy sees the problem.]
21 TOM HANEY: Before we, before we talk too
22 much about the next photo, if you can --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You want to just take that
24 out for a minute?
25 TOM HANEY: Let's talk still about the
0528
1 120TET. Like I say, this was on your role of
2 film and it's not exactly the same photograph
3 that was taken by the police.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: But it's, it's, it shows --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TOM HANEY: -- pretty much, I guess, or can
8 you tell me when that would have been taken?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue why
10 anybody would take a picture like that. I don't
11 know (inaudible). Who took the picture?
12 TOM HANEY: Well, it's on your roll --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: It's on my --
14 TOM HANEY: -- of film on your camera.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TOM HANEY: And this legal pad that you --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TOM HANEY: -- identified --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: -- do you know when that would
21 have been in that position?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. So this, this was taken
23 before photo one was?
24 TOM HANEY: Before the police photos.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, okay. I don't know
0529
1 when this was taken, or why it was taken. I
2 mean, it's nothing.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recognize that pad, I
4 know it's (inaudible) photo?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, but we had a lot of
6 those around. There was a picture in another
7 one. I think.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes)
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I bought like those Office
10 Depot's or Office Max or whatever they are and I
11 usually kept a bunch of them, you know, kept
12 them over here, right around here in the
13 kitchen.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: By the telephone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, but, you know, they
16 float all over.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: So it wouldn't have been
18 unusual to be where it is?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. Gosh.

 

[Anti-K]

Congratulations, Scandigirl, on working up the courage to post. It must be intimidating to post for the first time, but we're a pretty cordial group. You make some good points. Like you and many others here, I think the police hanging around for so long put a kink in whatever the plan might have been. Who knows what that plan might have been. Could it be that her body was hidden well enough initially that no one would find her (yes)? And maybe the plan was for them to wait for no call from the "kidnappers", police pack up and leave, no one around, move the body to the closed garage, place it in the trunk, then drive to the airport. I don't think they ever thought about throwing her body from the plane (as some have speculated); but it's a long enough drive out of town to the airport to allow for a short detour on a side road that isn't traveled much. Then when the body would be discovered, they'd already be out of town. What would investigators make of that situation? Would the coroner still be able to estimate that she had died around midnight (presumably while being held by the kidnappers), but the Ramseys had already left when the body was discovered? What would they have concluded from that scenario?

Anyway... Welcome to WS, Scandi.

Calling the police essentially hands control over to the police, and places their home, their movement, their communications under scrutiny. High risk! Very high risk, and completely unnecessary. Get rid of the body first, then call the cops, or, keep the body and stage a different scene.

Was Jonbenet’s body “hidden well enough initially that no one would find her (yes)?” With some qualification: no; the qualification: the body was hidden well enough that, if IDI, the parents would not find her. They would not find her because she had been kidnapped and so no reason to look behind a door that was latched from the outside and had no other exit point? Otherwise, and regardless of RDI/IDI, the police should have looked behind that door, especially since the note was so “hinky” and, as often stated, things didn’t seem right. White did open that door, but by fluke and chance, saw nothing, but that’s how easily the body could have been found.

This might just be a personal thing, but I find it hard to imagine that the Ramseys, or anyone, could be so stupid as to think that they could call the police, and then carry on as if they had never called them. “Well, it’s past ten now and no one’s called. Guess they’re not going to; oh well, guess we’ll juts carry on. Thanks, Officer, but you guys can go now. Bye-bye.”

No offence, and I’ve been wrong about things before, but this just sounds ridiculous to me.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

In my searching on this case I had never come across Kir Komrik. I just downloaded his 172 page WORD document on the case and have browsed the first parts. I will be interested to see the views and thoughts of those that are so well versed in the case on his thoughts. Thanks for sharing this. Great first post.

Kir Komrik. This is the “Best Fit Analysis” guy, right?

I actually got into a bit of a discussion with this guy once. His “theory” is a bit of a read, and some of it nonsensical. I’ve seen two versions of it. The earlier one had several pictures attached that were of his supposed wife. A whimsical and narcissistic waif of sorts who looked far too young to be a wife, and was very provocatively posed and dressed. For some reason I’m remembering that the second version had only one such picture. It’s been a long time since I even thought about Komrik, and right now I can’t say for sure why, but I do remember wondering about the sincerity behind his “theory.”
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

BBM We do? Source please. I've never heard that they never searched there. If they searched the rest of the house, why not there too? If it's true they didn't, they sure should have!! With that War & Peace of RNs they should have searched that place attic to crawl space with a fine toothed comb! How ANYONE, especially a cop, could ever believe ANYONE but a family member (take your pick) wrote that laughable piece of garbage is beyond me....SMH.

Only a complete idiot would put their dead daughter's body in the trunk of their own car, in their own garage, then call 911. There's no way on earth to explain her being there if she's found. Oh did the boogie man put her there with the intent to steal their car along with their daughter? Please...NO ONE would believe that one! There was another way to explain her being where she was found, although it's a totally absurd and ridiculous explanation.

No, I have no source for the claim that the garage and cars were not searched. I base my claim on the fact that there is no mention of such a search in any of the various public accounts. Do you have a source showing that the garage and cars were searched?

BTW, I think the garage probably was searched, maybe the cars, after the body was discovered and the Ramseys had vacated the premises.

YES, “only a complete idiot would put their dead daughter's body in the trunk of their own car, in their own garage, then call 911.” And, YES, “only a complete idiot would put their dead daughter's body in their basement, in their own house, then call 911.”
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Yes there are certainly some very telling statements and lies in this case.

!

It is an interesting theory and does make some sense. On the surface it seems absurd for them to think they could just take off with the body, but the fact is, John seemed to really think he was going to be allowed to fly off on his little vacation even with his daughter "kidnapped". So, following that absurd thought, and considering their sense of self importance maybe they really did think they could pull it off.

Which of course begs the question what kind of parent would want to leave for their vacations with their daughter missing?




On the contrary, your posts have been very interesting and informative and thanks for the link, I can't wait to go through that theory. I haven't been here all that long myself, but welcome.

At that point they would not have been leaving for vacation. They were essentially evicted from their home, and had the money and means to go "home" and connect with family, etc during a moment of extreme trauma. It was an unthinking, and somewhat stupid “attempt,” but in the end they went nowhere. They could have, with their lawyers and their money, they could have. But, they didn’t.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

Officer French briefly searched the garage looking for points of entry/exit by the kidnapper(s). the vehicles in the garage were not searched

 

[gramcracker]

first impressions after reading the KK thesis:

I'm good with the personality disorder(s) thought processes/motivations. not so much with the death being planned weeks in advance, or that it was planned for December 26 to set up Santa McReynolds. I think the cord/duct tape were used because they were available and if they were purchased a month earlier it was not done in preparation for the event

I'm very uncomfortable with the aspersions re FW. and the college student NI, based on an unidentified pubic hair found on the blanket JB was wrapped in. that hair was eventually ID'd by the FBI as an ancillary hair (chest, arm, underarm, leg - not pubic) from which PR could not be eliminated, nor her matrilineal relatives

wondering how many google/other search engine hits will be tabulated re King Air Transportation Pods this weekend

like DeDee posted above, questioning re photo of the RN pad/stair positioning on Christmas morning is verrrry interesting

it's late/early, so that's all I have for now

 

[ZBob]

Kir Komrik. This is the “Best Fit Analysis” guy, right?

I actually got into a bit of a discussion with this guy once. His “theory” is a bit of a read, and some of it nonsensical. I’ve seen two versions of it. The earlier one had several pictures attached that were of his supposed wife. A whimsical and narcissistic waif of sorts who looked far too young to be a wife, and was very provocatively posed and dressed. For some reason I’m remembering that the second version had only one such picture. It’s been a long time since I even thought about Komrik, and right now I can’t say for sure why, but I do remember wondering about the sincerity behind his “theory.”
...

AK

The file I reviewed had multiple pictures of the wife. In each case I thought them both oddly included and unusual choices. Additionally some of the text around his wife seemed to be a bit casual in some way, although he does relate to his experiences with her in the analogy to the R's.

 

[Venom]

Heyya Scandigirl,

Welcome to the thread, as well as you, Anti-K!
and ty for the link.

edit: for some security reason my computer would not open the file,
found a cached version:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ykirkomrikv1-0.docx+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca


... gonna need some coffee...

Thanks for the cached version. My laptop won't open the file, apparently I don't have ms office :waiting:

I have to read this later when I have some time.

 

[FreeSafety36]

If you believe in Statement Analysis (I do, but sometimes have a problem with the interpretators) it IS awfully odd that JR needs to supply those underwear graphics so often. Why is his dang underwear even on his mind so much?? Jeez!

Welcome to the forum, Scandigirl Thats a great first post. Ive pretty much dismissed Doc G because he refuses to even consider BR as capable, but your other reference is totally new to me. Thank you sooo much!! It's always a happy day to discover new sourcework and reading

BBM.

Describing oneself in one's underwear indicates a state of vulnerability. John wanted and needed to make himself come off as a vulnerable victim. Coming off as his usual self, a cold, business-like sailor-turned-CEO wouldn't benefit him at that point in time. John didn't exactly have a warm personality, so he needed to paint a picture of himself to LE as helpless. Describing himself as nude would raise too many unwanted questions, so describing himself as in his underwear best describes him as victimized while he's at his most vulnerable point, hopefully morphing himself into a sympathetic and tragic figure in the minds of the LEOs.

The fact that his state of undress neither adds to nor detracts from their version of events tells me he needs to make it known for his own reasons; and I believe the above reason is the most likely.

Off-topic, but the ignore feature on this site is quite nice...

 

[Mama2JML]

Thank you, Scandigirl. I spent the day reading the file.

The Kir Komrik text is loaded with interesting information mostly as it pertains to psychology. Several areas will need to be given more thought.

The information he offers about the photo developed from the R's camera is intriguing. KK believes, based on Patsy's interview, that a picture taken Christmas morning shows the RN tablet and 2 blank pages laid out on the iron staircase 24 hours before it was to appear there by the kidnapper.

Kir Komrik asks the reader to "suppose" the photo in question depicted the notepad and two blank pages laid out on the stairs, in an effort to establish "a causal inconsistency requiring foreknowledge." Later he acknowledges "we can't say the particular example above is what happened." Komrik is unsuccessful in his attempt to establish "a causal inconsistency requiring foreknowledge" as the photo in question depicts the notepad on the hall table.

 

[Nom de plume]

Calling the police essentially hands control over to the police, and places their home, their movement, their communications under scrutiny. High risk! Very high risk, and completely unnecessary. Get rid of the body first, then call the cops, or, keep the body and stage a different scene.

Was Jonbenet’s body “hidden well enough initially that no one would find her (yes)?” With some qualification: no; the qualification: the body was hidden well enough that, if IDI, the parents would not find her. They would not find her because she had been kidnapped and so no reason to look behind a door that was latched from the outside and had no other exit point? Otherwise, and regardless of RDI/IDI, the police should have looked behind that door, especially since the note was so “hinky” and, as often stated, things didn’t seem right. White did open that door, but by fluke and chance, saw nothing, but that’s how easily the body could have been found.

This might just be a personal thing, but I find it hard to imagine that the Ramseys, or anyone, could be so stupid as to think that they could call the police, and then carry on as if they had never called them. “Well, it’s past ten now and no one’s called. Guess they’re not going to; oh well, guess we’ll juts carry on. Thanks, Officer, but you guys can go now. Bye-bye.”

No offence, and I’ve been wrong about things before, but this just sounds ridiculous to me.
...

AK

BBM
Yes, LE should have searched every inch of that house.

Was it by chance and a fluke? FW sure thought it was hinky, especially since JR "saw" her before he turned the light on. I'm not convinced she was in there when FW looked that morning. I think she was hidden better than that, and my guess would be the crawl space. She was already in full rigor & livor was set so she could have been moved when JR disappeared.

I've never believed that either of them though LE would just "go away". Doesn't seem plausible, under any circumstances. BUT, as I said before, maybe they weren't depending or counting on that. If they had a call set up to come in from the "kidnapper" (that never came), that would give JR a way out of the house with JB in tow. When that call didn't come, JR disappeared for over an hour. What was he doing??? Coming up with Plan B IMO, and moving JB to a place she could be "found".

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi everyone! It's interesting to read your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to have a look at Kir Komrik's theory. I've no idea if he's right about any of his analysis, but it does at least raise some more interesting aspects to consider. Sadly, it's impossible to know if anyone's theory is right, with regard to this case, as so much is inconclusive or open to interpretation.

Anti-K, it's interesting that you've had contact with Kir Komrik before. I completely know what you mean about the photos of his extremely young wife coming across as inappropriate, or even dodgy! I couldn't find any more info about him, apart from finding his file by accident. As ZBob says, at least he's thorough and methodical, and his experiance with his wife does seem to be related to his first hand experience of dealing with someone with a personality disorder.

The reason I mentioned his work was because he does raise a couple of aspects that seem very interesting, although I'm in no way trying to say that I think he's correct about everything. Firstly, his mention of the photos that were discovered on the Ramsey's camera of the ransom note tablet, taken 24 hrs before the "kidnapping" was reported, do make me wonder if the crime was premeditated, even if only 24 hrs before? I found the police's interview with Patsy on this topic quite frustrating, as I don't feel they pushed her hard enough, to get to the bottom of the issue. What does anyone else think on this? Thanks for posting Patsy's interview, DeDee.

Secondly, his analysis of the attack scene in the basement seems very interesting. He estimates the height of the low basement ceiling, and the angle that the weapon would have had to be swung, in order to strike JonBenet on the head with enough force to inflict the damage that it did. He estimates that the attacker must have been no more than 5 ft 7 ins in height, to have physically managed this. So much of the details in this crime are open to interpretation, and it got me thinking that maybe this is one aspect that you could either definitely pin on one particular person, or at least definately use to eliminate someone, from inflicting the head blow?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Patsy was 5 ft 7 ins tall, but can't remember where... Can anyone else help on this? Also, I can't find any info anywhere on how tall John is? Burke was obviously less than 5 ft 7 ins tall, at the time. Maybe I'm completely on the wrong path with this? Still interesting for us to investigate, though. Could it mean that John must be eliminated from striking the head blow and it must therefore have been either Patsy or Burke? Or maybe these calculations are wrong, I don't know!

Finally, Anti-K, I completely understand that it seems ridiculous to think that the Ramsey's might have been so stupid and reckless as to think that they could involve the police on the pretense of a kidnapping, knowing that the body was still in the house- I think so, too!

However, it's one thing for us all to follow common sense and logic in the cold light of day, but maybe not so at the time for the Ramsey's at the time, in the middle of a very desperate and pressured situation.

Most of us find it unbelievable (arrogant, desperate to stupid?), that John could have thought that he could still board his plane and fly off once the police were there, but he clearly did assume that very thing, until the police told him otherwise. I know exactly what you mean, Anti-K, but this fact makes me wonder!