Did the jury get it wrong, or...

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Did the jury get it wrong?

  • The jury got it wrong

    Votes: 1,051 81.9%
  • The state didn't prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt

    Votes: 179 14.0%
  • The Defense provided reasonable doubt and the jury got it right

    Votes: 55 4.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 2.4%

  • Total voters
    1,283
  • Poll closed .
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She also claimed that It's hard to convict somebody of Murder when you don't know "Why, Where, When & How" Caylee was murdered

None of these are required for a conviction.

A Murder is a Murder & while it would be helpful to Know Why, Where, When & How All the Jury needed to know was the "Who" & that "Who" could only have been Casey..

There was no evidence of an accident

Medical Examiner's report

Manner of Death = Homicide

I guess the Jury ignored that fact also

You have put into words for me some of the things I have questioned over and over and over in my head. Also, I don't know if you remember in CM portion of the closing arguments, he was the one who used the words "who, what, why, where and when." Perhaps someone should have clarified 'the law' better
 
I believe in our justice system, and I'd like to believe that we get things right more often than we get things wrong; however, juries are not infallible. Juries don't always interpret the evidence and/or the law correctly; innocent people are convicted (and even sentenced to death), and guilty people are set free. As much as I dislike that, it happens because our system is not flawless. That being said, I respect the jury's decision, but I do not agree with it. My opinion is not based on mere emotion; it's based on the evidence I saw presented during the trial.

Here's how I connected the dots based on the evidence:

The Car

I believe that there was a dead body in the trunk at some point. This is based on the testimony of several people who have had numerous experiences smelling dead bodies (including Simon Birch, who has also smelled all sorts of garbage/rotten food due to his prior work in waste management), the cadaver dogs, the chemical analysis, and the death band on the hair.

Here's the thing, though: As the defense pointed out, some of the technology/science the state presented is still new, so it's not 100% reliable. If the state had only presented the hair with the death band, for example, I would have reasonable doubt; however, when you take all of those things together, it's far more reasonable to believe that there was a dead body in the trunk than it is to believe that all of the trunk evidence was incorrect. When I consider the fact that Casey's defense attorney admitted that Caylee died on June 16th, I feel even more strongly about this.

Access to the Car

The DT seemed to imply that since George had keys to the car, he also had access to it and may have been responsible for putting Caylee's body in the trunk . . . which is odd when you consider the fact that they'd been fighting so hard to prove that there'd never been a body in the trunk in the first place.

But the thing is, when would George have had a chance to put the body in the trunk? If I remember correctly, the DT seemed to try to imply that he could have done it after Casey left her car or after it had been towed, but to believe this would mean that one would have to believe that George somehow randomly found her car in a city as big as Orlando, somehow transported a decomposing body in his own vehicle, somehow put it in Casey's car in a public place where he could have been seen, and somehow later came back to take it out. That, IMO, is far less reasonable than believing that Casey put the body in the trunk, even if you only go on the basis that she had more access to the car. (Of course, there are other things that tie Casey to trunk and to the crime itself, and I'll get to that in a bit.)

Chloroform

Regardless of whether or not the chloroform site was visited eighty-four times, it seems clear that someone* searched for it -- along with instructions on how to make it. That alone isn't too damning, but it is when you consider that the reason the computer was searched to begin with was due to unusually high levels of chloroform in the trunk. If the state had only presented the computer searches without presenting the evidence of chloroform in the trunk (or vice versa), then I would have reasonable doubt on this issue. The chloroform in the trunk could have been explained away by cleaning products, but when you view the evidence in conjunction with the computer searches, it seems far more sinister and a lot less coincidental. True, there is no proof that chloroform killed Caylee, but since evidence of Caylee's dead body and chloroform were both found in the trunk, there seems to have been some sort of connection. Personally, I've always believed she used the chloroform to knock Caylee out before placing the duct tape over her nose and mouth because there'd be no reason to place duct tape over her nose and mouth if she'd already been killed by the chloroform. I think it's likely that she used the chloroform to prevent a struggle.

*I'm not even going to mention Cindy's testimony because I think the state proved pretty conclusively that she was at work when those searches were made. George was also at work when these searches were made, so that leaves us with Casey.

The Duct Tape

This, IMO, was the murder weapon. Like Jeff Ashton said, there is absolutely no reason to put duct tape over the nose and mouth of a child, regardless of whether the child is dead or alive. Some people have speculated that the duct tape may have been used to stage a kidnapping, but this did not look like a kidnapping; it looked like a murder by suffocation. Kidnappers generally use duct tape to prevent someone from making noise, so if this was a staged kidnapping, the duct tape would have only covered her mouth. There would have been no need for three pieces to cover her nose and her mouth. Others have suggested that she may have used the tape to prevent decompositional fluids from coming out of her nose and mouth, but by the time her body was decomposed enough to be leaking fluids, that would be the equivalent of putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. Her face, along with the rest of her body, would have already been leaking.

So ... did someone put the duct tape on Caylee's skull after it was already decomposed, which is what Dr. Spitz suggested? First of all, why would anyone do that? There is absolutely, positively no evidence that any of the investigators tampered with the scene. The defense claims that Roy Kronk moved the body and may have placed the tape on Caylee's skull, but why on earth would he do that? Why would he care if her mandible became detached from the rest of her skull? What reason would he have to risk tying himself to the scene -- and, therefore, possibly implicating himself -- if all he cared about was claiming the reward money? I'm also not the least bit concerned about the lack of DNA on the tape and the lack of tape residue on the skull. After all, both had been exposed to the elements for six months, so that's not too unexpected.

Basing his opinion on the "pet cemetery" testimony, one of the alternate jurors thought that the tape could have come from the burial, but that doesn't really make sense. First of all, the Anthonys didn't place duct tape on their pets' faces. Secondly, the presence of the duct tape on the nose/mouth area -- with the mandible still attached -- strongly seems to indicate that the duct tape was placed on her face prior to decomposition, otherwise the mandible would have become detached when her face decomposed.

Tying Casey to the Crime Scene

The laundry bag Caylee was found with came from the Anthony home. The remains of the shirt found with Caylee's body hadn't been seen in the Anthony home, but Caylee was seen wearing it in a photo she'd had taken with Casey. Therefore, it's logical to assume that Casey may have kept it with her in a diaper bag. IIRC, Cindy also testified that she hadn't seen Caylee's Winnie the Pooh blanket since May of 2008, so it's logical to assume that Casey also had this in her possession. As far as I'm concerned, these things (along with other things, of course) rule out everyone in the Anthony home except for Casey.

The Manner of Death and Other Things

Dr. G said that Caylee died as the result of homicide by undetermined means. She based this on the duct tape and the manner in which Caylee was found. She also said that whenever an accident happens, 911 is always called. When you take this into consideration -- along with the rest of the evidence -- it seems reasonable to conclude that Caylee did not die as the result of an accident. There is no logical reason to make an accident look like a murder.

And last but not least, we have Casey's behavior. As you may have noticed, I've listed this last. Contrary to popular belief, it's possible to come to the conclusion that Casey killed Caylee without even looking at her behavior; however, when you look at her behavior in conjunction with everything else, it's pretty damning.

All that being said, I have no idea why the jurors were unable to put the puzzle pieces together. Like Vinnie Politan said, what other reasonable explanation is there that explains all the circumstances? Many of the jurors have said that they needed a motive, a concrete cause of death, a time of death, a place of death, etc., but legally, none of those things were required. Don't believe me? Take a look at their jury instructions.


Beautifully put. If this had been the state's closing, things might be different.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.....
 
You have put into words for me some of the things I have questioned over and over and over in my head. Also, I don't know if you remember in CM portion of the closing arguments, he was the one who used the words "who, what, why, where and when." Perhaps someone should have clarified 'the law' better


You know, you are right. The more I am hearing and the more I am processing this, I think it was a foregone conclusion. I am not sure anything could have had them convict her. They hung onto everything the defense said and picked apart all the state's arguments.
 
This is incredibly depressing, and it doesn't even count the questionable accidents. I just want to cry for all these children. I hope we can do better.

The worst thing is that if you view the killer mom list, it is very EVIDENT, that if you are a middle class, young white female, your odds are PRETTY DARN GOOD.

Look at how many of the women on that killer mom list JUST GOT PROBATION or a couple of years for doing the unthinkable.

Unfortunately, ICA's verdict seems to be par for the course. Justice is not blind to the sex, color, age, class or even the attractiveness of the offender.

I think all of those played a part in the jurors decision.

MOO
 
More people are going to die at the hands of KC, of this I am certain. That is scary, infuriating and it was completely preventable!
 
One thing I keep wondering about: How different would the outcome of this trial have been if that group of 50 potential jurors had not been sent home because that one lady saw fit to run her mouth? Perhaps it would not have changed anything, but I can't help wondering. It seems like these 12 chosen jurors had pretty much melted into one mindset, and there was no "strong" personalities to fight for a guilty verdict, or to at least suggest taking the time to look carefully over the evidence. I'll tell you what, I am one stubborn ol' biddy & wouldn't have given a rat's patoody about pressure from other jurors. I would have hung this jury, for sure. I agree with what others have stated: this jury was just in a hurry to get home & even though some of them felt that ICA was guilty, they caved, so they could go home already.
 
Peeled probably wasn't the right word. They actually had to cut the tape away. That's what it looked like to me. Remember, I stated I was simply your average joe blow. It's evidence found with the body, on the skull. It should have been looked at, and discussed. Witness reports should have been read and gone back over.

Caylee was there for 6 months. There was no biological left. She was out in the elements, animals feasted on her.

But go back thru the testimony from 6/9/11. This is where part of connecting the dots come in. That pic of the duct tape was what was removed from Caylee's skull.


I went back and listened. I couldn't remember who said what and how so I took notes this time. It's important to go back and see how they removed the skull, how it went to the Orlando ME lab, and removed. Some pics of this are on orlando sentinels website. Also descriptions of what they saw, photographed. We didn't see it because it wasn't published to the public, or the skull was pixellated, but only to the courtroom. The jurors did see it.

CSI Hanson? Haskell?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947#p/c/0B1A4D04341B97F8/28/LCUtWcLXxfY

29:00 - demonstrates debris line, circumference, trying to remove skull and tape together, how he lifted the skull
(there is a pic of this on Orlandosentinel.)


http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947#p/c/0B1A4D04341B97F8/29/ZRifQKKq540

cont from previous vid.

Tried to keep everything together when collecting the skull and tape. This doc collected from the scene and delivered to the lab.

Around 14:00 asked why he collected (lifted the skull) the way he did was to keep duct tape skull and hair mat the way they found it.

Same video: Utz, ME

25:00 skull hair and tape discussion/evidence arrived at lab
Also talks how evidence was separated and photographed. More later.
27:00 skull and tape at lab
28:00ish - skull and tape at lab looking at skull, describes several pieces of tape on the lower half of the face and jaw. hair.
31:00 ish - right side and back, mat, hair strands, tape. tape appears to come around to the side.
skull from rear and left side, debris obscures, hair mat, plant roots
skull tilted, supported by someone being held up to see face of skull.
describes tape being attached to each other - thinks there were 3 separate pieces.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947#p/c/0B1A4D04341B97F8/30/HCrcwKorE3s

part 7

skull from different angle. tilted so you can see bottom of the mandible. see tape. hair.plant roots and leaves. mandible stays in place.
tape no longer adhesive, but it was still stuck to some hair,tape fabric stuck to hair and part of mandible.


4:30 asked if the tape was removed, yes. some hair and fabric had to be cut to maintain integrity of the tape.

4:50 skull - mandible and tape removed. ---?? backed up to the below discussion

7:14 mandible and tape looking at skull tilted on the left, right side lower jaw and mandible, lifts tape to show how the fabric of the tape is attached to mandible, on left side,some hair is still stuck to tape. mixed in with plant roots.

multiple layers of tape.
------

10:50 picture of tape after it was removed (same one I linked to on orlandosentinel.) this is what the tape looked like after it was removed, separated from the remains. separation of layers of the tape, fabric backing separated. This was sent to fbi.


I'll say it again. The jury did not go over the evidence. And it doesn't seem to me that they even listened to testimony as it was going on. I did. I remembered it, seeing the pics, and generally what was said, altho if you had tested me on it I would have failed. I didn't take notes at the time. I had to go back and refresh my memory. If I had any doubts about duct tape, I can tell you that one picture confirmed for me how Caylee died.

3 LONG pieces 1 at 7.5x2 and 2 at 9.5x2 of duct tape attached to the skull - and one (8.5x2) separate
3 out of 4 pieces had hair
no evidence presented that tape had any plastic bag attached and not evidence showed the bag(s) had any tape attached to them.
<heavy sigh>
 
You know, you are right. The more I am hearing and the more I am processing this, I think it was a foregone conclusion. I am not sure anything could have had them convict her. They hung onto everything the defense said and picked apart all the state's arguments.

Yep. Even though defense didn't provide no evidence of molestation, GA involvement, or drowning in the pool. Just claims.
 
apparently all you have to do to get away with murder is to deny deny deny... where's haleigh? where's kyron? where's stacy peterson? etc?

And who would ever think that lying and bad behavior, shown on video in open court and for the world to see could actually be used in her favor.
 
After being over the initial anger of the verdict, I can now look at the trial proceedings with a clearer head.
I think the jury suffered big time from information overload. A clever strategic move by the DT. The quite often boring expert witnesses were more in the beginning. The juicier non expert emotional witnesses later in the trial. The jurors remembered those witnesses better. Cindy, George and Lee were worth their weight in gold to the DT.
The DT strategic location allowed them to see the jurors reaction to various witnesses..
I still wonder about some of the DT expert witnesses and if they really added any value to the trial except overloading the jury with more BS info like that touch DNA dude plus others.
Some of the later trial days were just too long for the jurors IMO. Any educators among you can probably better explain. The Judge was determined to get the trial done within a certain date range. May be he was rushing it too much near the end. Anyway, it is over now and history. Many folks have learned a lot of this trial, especially the professionals IMO. Hopefully history will not be repeated.
 
You have put into words for me some of the things I have questioned over and over and over in my head. Also, I don't know if you remember in CM portion of the closing arguments, he was the one who used the words "who, what, why, where and when." Perhaps someone should have clarified 'the law' better

Herein lies the problem! There is no clarification of the law that is adequately given to jurors. If the average American fully understood these complicated laws there would be no need for lawyers. It's ridiculous to assume that because the members of the jury say they understand what is told to them or handed to them on a sheet of paper, they actually do. They are given a lot of information to process in a relatively short period of time. After recently serving as Foreperson in a criminal case, I suggested to my State Attorney General that the jury instruction process be changed, particularly in criminal cases, to include more in-depth, one on one, if necessary, instruction with the jury BEFORE the trial begins. I realize there are time constraints, but that should not take precedence when a person's life or death, is at stake.
 
I keep asking myself if I had truly not heard much of the case before like most of the jurors what would I have thought. I try to think back to my feelings in the very beginning.

I remember hearing about the gas cans and her breaking into the shed and thinking maybe she took beautiful Caylee to a far away place, not wanting to have proof of stopping for gas.
I wondered about the Anthonys were they really trying to cover for her or just desperate parents trying to get the story out there.
Did this guy Tony who she insisted on speaking to help her or do it?
Was it a drug deal gone bad?
Did she forget she was in the car seat and go shopping? (happens every summer hear in Cali)
Did she fall off her boyfriends balcony at his apartment.

I really could not believe this young lady could do such a thing.
After a while nothing added up. I became consumed with the case and came here and started finding others felt the same.

My point is eventually I began to feel that she more than likely put her daughter in the trunk as a baby sitter.
So again, it can't be that the SA did not do their job. It was all there and there was so much more. Would the cell phone pings of helped? My space evidence made it a little more obvious? I don't know.

I think in the long run the DT and Mr. Baaaaez got up there and fed that jury a bunch of felony KC lies. How that is legal I DON'T KNOW OR UNDERSTAND. I don't get how it is okay to throw a bunch of carp at the wall and it be okay. If I were a juror I would have questioned "hey guys, wait a minute nobody said anything about the abuse. He never said anything about when George took the body. He said the would prove it." But nothing.. all he did was recall the States witnesses. I am even angrier that I am thinking and saying the same thing over and over again.

I'm not one to say "its not fair" because I think saying something like that is such a cop out and its whining. But guess what ? now I really think and feel: It's not fair"!!!!
 
Juror # 11, the good-looking gym teacher.

OMG. there are so many thoughts flooding my brain about this but i swear, every single one of them would be grounds for banning. so i'll have to say only, wow. the good looking gym teacher was the friggin' foreperson. omg. wow.

(and no offense to gym teachers.)
 
Herein lies the problem! There is no clarification of the law that is adequately given to jurors. If the average American fully understood these complicated laws there would be no need for lawyers. It's ridiculous to assume that because the members of the jury say they understand what is told to them or handed to them on a sheet of paper, they actually do. They are given a lot of information to process in a relatively short period of time. After recently serving as Foreperson in a criminal case, I suggested to my State Attorney General that the jury instruction process be changed, particularly in criminal cases, to include more in-depth, one on one, if necessary, instruction with the jury BEFORE the trial begins. I realize there are time constraints, but that should not take precedence when a person's life or death, is at stake.

I think you are correct that the education of the jurors needs to change. They would still need to do most of it at the end though because the instructions are tailored to fit the facts of each case (always staying within the law, of course). I think the definitions of reasonable doubt and the explanation of the laws each charge is based on could be done in advance though. Then the jury would be able to understand what the lawyers are talking about and the witnesses are testifying to.

I think in this case, the jury was bright enough to catch on even the way it is done at the end if they had listened to the judge read the charge and/or had read the charge themselves. IMHO they had their minds made up way before the trial was over (and they did discuss it even though they were admonished not to or the alternates wouldn't have had a clue what the jury was doing) and so they didn't bother to listen to that part. If they had, they would have seen that the State did in fact meet their burden and that reasonable doubt has to be reasonable.
 
If some of the lawyers are reading this, please advise if I am being ridiculous, but can you ask questions in jury selection to determine if they are morons or not?

Questions I would like to ask a potential juror:

Do you think 911 was a government conspiracy?

What do you think about bigfoot?

Do you think we really walked on the moon?

Is global warming "junk science"?

What questions would you like to ask?
 
If you'd read all my posts, you'd know that I am far away from letting "one little thing" about this case bother me!

There was testimony that rotting pork smells almost identical to human decomposition. I knew that from before this case, and brought it up at the time of the first document dump. There were test results that showed NO levels of certain decomp chemicals that would have been in the car if a body had been left in there for days....and the chemicals that were found would be present if an animal (think pork) decomposed in the trunk. There was an absence of blow-flies, and believe me, that is very important. It would be almost impossible to erase the presence of blow-flies, and the fact that they weren't there lends reasonable doubt that the body was never in the trunk. The very fact that you admit that the death band is not 100% provable is reason for a juror to hold that testimony in question. I am not "handwaving" anything away. I am looking at both arguments, and I do understand how the jurors felt there was reasonable doubt. ESPECIALLY when combined with the fact that there was DNA of some unknown person found on the tape, but none of Caylee's.

I do think cadaver dogs are useful, but I do not think the "hit" of a cadaver dog rises to the same level of DNA or fingerprint evidence.



Are you kidding? Who in their right mind would expect the tape to be adhered to the skeleton? Not me, for sure. My point is that there was nothing to show us where the tape had been placed......the skin had decomposed, the tape was presumably loose. The way it was found COULD be indicative of where the tape was originally adhered, but thanks to Mr. Kronk, we will never be sure. When he poked that skull, kicked and lifted that bag, the tape could have moved.

I have my own feelings about this case. I strongly FEEL that something very bad happened to Caylee, and that ultimately Casey is to blame, whether through action or inaction. I also acknowledge that the baby could have died accidentally and Casey's level of disfunction is so off the charts that I can believe she would react very differently from most of us.

if you had been on the jury, and returned with this verdict (not implying how you would have voted), i would at least have the comfort of knowing that an intelligent, insightful person had actual reasoning behind their decision.

unfortunately, i would bet that not a one of the 12 who ultimately decided the outcome could even understand your post....well stated as it is.

that makes me angry.
 
Since Baez came up with a story of accidental drowning and the body being disposed of to cover this drowning, what was the point of even arguing that a body wasn't in Casey's car? Yea, maybe rotten pork smells similar to human decomposition, but why exactly is it so important to argue that all the evidence pointing out to body being in a car doesn't actually prove the body was in a car? Considering defense theory of covering up an accident by disposing of a body?
 
KC's jury = NG = Sympathy for the devil.
Will always associate that song with the KC jury's verdict.
 
if you had been on the jury, and returned with this verdict (not implying how you would have voted), i would at least have the comfort of knowing that an intelligent, insightful person had actual reasoning behind their decision.

unfortunately, i would bet that not a one of the 12 who ultimately decided the outcome could even understand your post....well stated as it is.

that makes me angry.

If you'd read all my posts, you'd know that I am far away from letting "one little thing" about this case bother me!

There was testimony that rotting pork smells almost identical to human decomposition. I knew that from before this case, and brought it up at the time of the first document dump. There were test results that showed NO levels of certain decomp chemicals that would have been in the car if a body had been left in there for days....and the chemicals that were found would be present if an animal (think pork) decomposed in the trunk. There was an absence of blow-flies, and believe me, that is very important. It would be almost impossible to erase the presence of blow-flies, and the fact that they weren't there lends reasonable doubt that the body was never in the trunk. The very fact that you admit that the death band is not 100% provable is reason for a juror to hold that testimony in question. I am not "handwaving" anything away. I am looking at both arguments, and I do understand how the jurors felt there was reasonable doubt. ESPECIALLY when combined with the fact that there was DNA of some unknown person found on the tape, but none of Caylee's.

I do think cadaver dogs are useful, but I do not think the "hit" of a cadaver dog rises to the same level of DNA or fingerprint evidence.

No disrespect meant, but have you ever worked with a hunting dog? If you had you would have a lot of respect for the talents of a hunting dog, drug dog or cadaver dog.


Are you kidding? Who in their right mind would expect the tape to be adhered to the skeleton? Not me, for sure. My point is that there was nothing to show us where the tape had been placed......the skin had decomposed, the tape was presumably loose. The way it was found COULD be indicative of where the tape was originally adhered, but thanks to Mr. Kronk, we will never be sure. When he poked that skull, kicked and lifted that bag, the tape could have moved.

I have my own feelings about this case. I strongly FEEL that something very bad happened to Caylee, and that ultimately Casey is to blame, whether through action or inaction. I also acknowledge that the baby could have died accidentally and Casey's level of disfunction is so off the charts that I can believe she would react very differently from most of us.

I respect your view point, but dogs are amazing.
 
I respect your view point, but dogs are amazing.

I agree, 100%. For me, the dog hits were THE most convincing evidence that there had been a dead body in that trunk. I wonder if the jury even remembered the video that had been played -- the one showing that dog going STRAIGHT to a dead body that would've probably never been found, otherwise. The dog on the video was pretty impressive, IMO.

ps -- and I'm not even a 'dog' person! I prefer cats. :)
 
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