Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

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Drinking of alcohol was revoked because Roux asked for this restriction to be lifted, and it was apparently granted.

Yes, this is all I could find of the original bail conditions. Quite honestly I don't think anything was left after the conditions were rescinded on appeal.

If anyone has a copy of the court papers it would be interested to read them. I have searched for hours today and have not found them though I am sure there must be a video recording somewhere of the original bail hearing which might cover the bail conditions. I haven't tried You Tube but it is a possibility. Neither have I been able to find definitive evidence of what was rescinded at the appeal. I have also failed to unearth the court proceedings in the Durban jurisdiction where Siyabonga Mdunge appeared. I know it was a magistrates court and not the high court. The prosecution accepted a plea of CH (his wife's sister accepted this plea) and therefore the case did not need to be heard in the High Court.
 
Me too. I had to switch it off at that point, he is a broken man. I bawled my eyes out.

.. yes, and it really galls me when I keep hearing the Pistorius clan saying that OP is a broken man .. no, this man is a broken man, Barry Steenkamp.
 
Yes, this is all I could find of the original bail conditions. Quite honestly I don't think anything was left after the conditions were rescinded on appeal.

If anyone has a a copy of the court papers it would be interested to read them. I have searched for hours today and have not found them though I am sure there must be a video recording somewhere of the original bail hearing which might cover the bail conditions. I haven't tried You Tube but it is a possibility. Neither have I been able to find definitive evidence of what was rescinded at the appeal. I have also failed to unearth the court proceedings in the Durban jurisdiction where Siyabonga Mdunge appeared. I know it was a magistrates court and not the high court. The prosecution accepted a plea of CH (his wife's sister accepted this plea) and therefore the case did not need to be heard in the High Court.

.. makes you wonder if it's been scrubbed from the internet ..
 
Here’s yet another little gem, this time from Stander’s wife when she arrived at OP’s home that morning, “They were all outside talking and Mrs Stander made a comment that she hoped this didn’t get out to the papers”. A young woman has been brutally shot to death in a particularly horrific way, her hip shattered, her arm virtually amputated and shot in the head with brain matter spilling out and Mrs Stander’s worried about it getting into the papers!!!

As we know, the first person OP rang was Johan Stander. OP said, “Johan, please, please, please come to my house. I shot Reeva. I thought she was an intruder. Please, please come quickly.” When Stander arrived at the house he saw OP carrying Reeva down the stairs. The interesting thing about this is that OP hadn’t told him that he’d killed Reeva, only that he’d shot her, and Stander never even asked if she was still alive. All he knows is that OP was “broken, screaming, crying and praying”. He never comments on seeing Reeva, no mention at all IIRC.

It’s not just the family that have something seriously wrong with them but it’s their friends and associates too. All my thoughts would have been for Reeva. It wouldn’t even enter my head to think about it getting into the papers. They, like the Pistorius family, all reside on another planet, and I hope that planet gets sucked into a big black hole.

that is a really good point about stander's initial reaction. either oscar had already told stander he had killed her, or the body was so obviously lifeless that stander made an instant judgement that to carry her to the car was a waste of time...
 
Yes, it was very sad to see, and he also said he wanted to speak to Oscar didn't he. He's lost his little girl at the hands of this reckless immature pathetic man/boy,so can't imagine how he must be feeling, just so very tragic for the parents and family. This is what makes me seeth when I see Uncle Arnold and the rest of the family proclaim Oscar's innocence in their tweets and media conferences, reinforcing what they call 'terrible mistake' , and an 'accident' as is on Oscar's blog. They sat through that Trial and they heard Oscar's contradictions and inability to answer questions put to him by Nel, they know that Oscar withheld the truth, if they really know him. That....or Oscar really is just a very good liar, but also the family know he changed his Affidavit and Plea explanation and his Defence Claims during the Trial - not the behaviour of someone telling the truth from the outset was it.

I think none of Oscar's family know the truth , except Oscar's brother . I do think however, the sister MUST have asked him some questions too, but not sure she knows the whole truth, as I think it would be a burden for her to carry so I don't think Oscar will have told her - but either way,Oscar's family know he was lying, can't see how they couldn't know. They will stand by him as his reputation and future also reflects on them. The reason I think the brother knows the truth and Oscar confided in him and only him was because of his behaviour in Court when Oscar was being cross examined, it was his body language, often sitting bolt upright and edging forward in his seat mumbling away as if trying to remind Oscar to stick to his rehearsed 'version' when he was being asked some tricky questions and got tongue-tied and didn't answer Nel directly.

they grew up together! i bet they are well aware of his storytelling and lies... the brother [especially] and the sister would surely also know how capable he was on his stumps... which imo is very capable. non of this unsteady tosh. lower centre of gravity, strong arms... i bet he can cover the ground very quickly if he wants to/needs to.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JZB3pwgxvY

Desmond Nair issues Bail Conditions starting at around 2hrs 19 minutes.


I haven't been able to find a complete list anywhere of what was rescinded but from a number of different reports I can say that he was allowed to leave SA for reasons of sport (ie earning a living) but had to give notice, he was allowed to return to his home, there was no longer a ban on him drinking and he would not be tested for drugs. Also he did not have to report to the police twice a week. I have found no mention of the guns so I can only assume he is still not allowed to carry a weapon.

Here is a short video associated with some of the relaxed bail conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4SXT-IL7i8

I cannot find any recordings of the bail appeal, only reports from journalists.
 
For those who are interested in the timeline, enjoy puzzles and would like to help.

I've been attempting to reconcile the evidence between 01:48:48 and 03:17:20. It’s no easy task and in some respects I don’t blame the judge for saying “it doesn’t help”. I now have a chart with all the evidence of 10 witnesses plus OP. I’ll put it up when finished but it may be a few days as I’ve got other commitments coming up.

To give just one example of the problem (and there are a few other examples):

If we try and marry up the screams of “help, help, help” we have 5 witnesses who testify to hearing it.

1 and 2. Burger and Johnson hear it before the only set of bangs they hear (I use ‘bangs’ to not prejudge which are shots in this example). I’ll designate this PRE, so that’s PRE 2.

3. Dr Stipp hears it after hearing both sets of bangs and placing his successful call to security at 03:15:51-03:16:07 (his wife doesn’t hear it). I’ll call this POST. So far it’s PRE 2 vs POST 1. Masipa arbitrarily places this call before the second bangs in her chronology, thus ignoring both the Stipps’ evidence. I’ll stick with their evidence here but even so we already have a disagreement about the time sequence of the “helps”.

4. Carice Viljoen hears it but it could be before or after the final bangs as she then closes her sliding door and goes back to bed. She tells Roux that she hears it about 5 minutes before being told of the call to her father. This call ends at 03:19:27, Carice hears a commotion and gets up. Her mother therefore probably tells her at around 03:20+, making the “helps” around 03:15-ish. This could easily be before or after the second bangs because guessing an interval of 5 minutes is not easy. I’ll call this UNDECIDED which is fine as it contradicts nothing and supports nothing.

5. Finally Eonite Nhlengethwa hears it after a single bang but doesn’t hear any subsequent bangs (her husband is checking the house at this time so doesn’t hear it). Nel gets her to agree that the single bang followed by the “helps” with no further bangs would agree with the end of Dr Stipps timeline. Nel would have this as a POST.

Ignoring OP (who is a PRE) we have PRE 2, POST 2, UNDECIDED 1.

However, Nel may not be right about Mrs Nhgenlethwa. If Stipp phones security and then hears the “helps”, they must occur after his call ends at 03:16:07. Mr Nhlengethwa places his first call after his wife hears the “helps” (while he is checking the house) at 03:16:13 (didn’t go through). This is just 6 seconds later, so to agree with Stipp this is the maximum window for Mrs N to hear the “helps” and for Mr N to return to the bedroom from checking the house, look out of the window, talk with his wife and hear loud crying before finding the number and placing his first call. This simply isn’t realistic. So it’s a PRE? But then we have to account for an awake, alert Mr & Mrs N not hearing any further bangs (or screams).

Like I said, not easy. Is it important? Yes, because these discrepancies are part of the reason Masipa finds the witnesses unreliable and a lot of evidence is lost without accepting their testimony, particularly those that hear a woman screaming after OP claims to have already killed Reeva.

Any thoughts are welcome.
 
Sorry if this is OT re. sentencing and appeal but the phrase 'stands to reason' has been going round my head since last week and I can't help but feel that reason has gone out of the window with the Judge's verdict.

Every core tenet of the state's case and their witness statements stand to reason. Many aspects of Pistorius' testimony do not stand to reason.

How do we end up in a situation where what is reasonable appears to have been so willfully discarded?
 
I just finished watching the whole documentary and it is truly heart wrenching, my heart goes out to the Steenkamps.

I fully agree with you that Oscar's brother knows what happens. At the end of the final verdict, his brother turned around in his wheelchair and winked at Oscar!!

Oh did he ? I thought it was one of his Lawyers , Webber who did that , who was sitting in front of Oscar throughout the trial next to the blonde lady who was promoted to sit at the front next to Oldiewindbaggage for the Closing Arguments ? It wouldn't surprise me, I think he helped Oscar, who's not the brightest cookie with his phone messages on one of his phones that wasn't handed in until the Bail Hearing.....rather suspect if you ask me !

And as for the blonde lady on the Defence team....the ambitious Roxanne(?) - here she is being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards Nel, while he was speaking , (which seemed to throw him a bit)...pulling faces at him like a schoolgirl in a playground being caught out taking another classmate's PE kit..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqp502_tS1M
From 1.23.13 mins
 
"One of the first things to be sacrificed on the altar of irrational passion is truth. A deluge of nonsense spewed from foreign media: the UK Guardian fabricates the notion that Pistorius invoked a "mythical black intruder". What, it asks, "must a man do to be found guilty of murdering a woman?" How about be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have done so? Just as they "knew" Pistorius was guilty before the trial, they "know" before sentence that "punishment will not be enough".

http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/columnists/2014/09/17/ignorance-fuels-feeding-frenzy-over-pistorius
 
Oh did he ? I thought it was one of his Lawyers , Webber who did that , who was sitting in front of Oscar throughout the trial next to the blonde lady who was promoted to sit at the front next to Oldiewindbaggage for the Closing Arguments ? It wouldn't surprise me, I think he helped Oscar, who's not the brightest cookie with his phone messages on one of his phones that wasn't handed in until the Bail Hearing.....rather suspect if you ask me !

And as for the blonde lady on the Defence team....the ambitious Roxanne(?) - here she is being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards Nel, while he was speaking , (which seemed to throw him a bit)...pulling faces at him like a schoolgirl in a playground being caught out taking another classmate's PE kit..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqp502_tS1M
From 1.23.13 mins

He sure did, several times, I read it somewhere else, but it is also mentioned here: http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-verdict-20140910-story.html#page=1
"Carl Pistorius was in court in a wheelchair Thursday, hugging his brother and winking at him before the court resumed after a long lunch break."
 
He sure did, several times, I read it somewhere else, but it is also mentioned here: http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-verdict-20140910-story.html#page=1
"Carl Pistorius was in court in a wheelchair Thursday, hugging his brother and winking at him before the court resumed after a long lunch break."
I missed that, wonder if it's on a youtube clip of the Trial - I did see Webber turn round to Oscar though, but when you concentrate on what the Judge was saying , it's easy to miss things. What still angers me is Dr Stipp, who was a very credible witness, as the Judge said, said he heard 'TWO VOICES, TWO TONES, Man and a woman's voice, - yet the Judge only seemed to take the part of his testimony seeing Oscar emotional when he arrived at the house as being true, what about the rest of what Stipp said ?- This is why I just don't understand why she didn't think what he said about hearing two voices as being just as credible-because it proved Reeva and Oscar were awake and having an argument before he shot her!
 
Sorry if this is OT re. sentencing and appeal but the phrase 'stands to reason' has been going round my head since last week and I can't help but feel that reason has gone out of the window with the Judge's verdict.

Every core tenet of the state's case and their witness statements stand to reason. Many aspects of Pistorius' testimony do not stand to reason.

How do we end up in a situation where what is reasonable appears to have been so willfully discarded?

BBM - The Judge went with Roux's timeline... Nel didn't provide one. And I believe that Roux got it right when he said at some point... paraphrasing here... Nel couldn't give a timeline that supported the state's case because Nel had made the mistake of trying to show that the Bat Strikes preceded the Gun Shots. Nel is a good lawyer and, imho, if he could have come up with a viable timeline which would be supported by cell records, he would have done so.
 
Does anyone honestly believe that superstar Oscar Pistorius will serve even one day of prison time when a ‘nobody’ received a slap on the hand for essentially the same crime?

I suspect Masipa will hand down the harshest sentence possible purely for show (15 years), then suspend it with “strict conditions” (like bail, will OP appeal those unfair sentencing conditions?!).

Now go outside and play and don’t murder any more unarmed, defenseless, terrified women, you naughty boy!

Seriously, any society that values Sports, Money and “Heroes” more than innocent human life is DEPRAVED.

Yes, I feel like this whole thing has been about making sure Oscar doesn't spend a single day in jail. I found it very telling that, although Masipa found him guilty of culpable homicide, they didn't arrest him right away (oh sorry I mean handcuff him and take him to jail) and make him wait in jail for the sentence. I'm assuming this (not being jailed until sentencing) is the way it's usually done in S. Africa, but IMO it's also foreshadowing what Oscar's sentence will be (0 days in prison).

I dunno, that's just the feeling I have after all this - that there is no way anybody is going to let OP spend a single day in prison.
 
BBM - The Judge went with Roux's timeline... Nel didn't provide one. And I believe that Roux got it right when he said at some point... paraphrasing here... Nel couldn't give a timeline that supported the state's case because Nel had made the mistake of trying to show that the Bat Strikes preceded the Gun Shots. Nel is a good lawyer and, imho, if he could have come up with a viable timeline which would be supported by cell records, he would have done so.

The heart of reason in this case is that when you accept that the evidence supports the bat strikes after the gun shots the events CANNOT have happened as the state put forward. Everything else flows from that.
 
BBM - The Judge went with Roux's timeline... Nel didn't provide one. And I believe that Roux got it right when he said at some point... paraphrasing here... Nel couldn't give a timeline that supported the state's case because Nel had made the mistake of trying to show that the Bat Strikes preceded the Gun Shots. Nel is a good lawyer and, imho, if he could have come up with a viable timeline which would be supported by cell records, he would have done so.
Roux twisted the timeline, he got things very wrong, - he took Johnson's notes that were rough and incomplete where he said the time of 3.12- this is the time Roux took- but Johnson also said it could have been 3.14. Only the phone data was common cause, the timeline used by Roux was manipulated to suit Oscar's version, the Defence had to press the notion of the bat sounds being 'second sounds' (as Roux put it) or his Case would have fallen apart, because the Defence had to also push the notion that the screams heard by the witnesses were Oscar's before, during and after the shots were fired - because we know that none of the witnesses heard a woman screaming after the last gunshot sound, so Defence had to convince the Court it was Oscar heard screaming.

There's no way the bat hitting a door was as loud as the gunshots. Nel didn't have to account for the first sounds the witnesses heard, as the photographs Van Staden presented to the Court showed other damage in the house---to the bedroom door, the bath panel, damage on the toilet door could have been other sounds heard that night - Nel concentrated on the gunshots and the witnesses hearing a woman heard screaming before, during and not after the last gunshot was heard.

I think Roux tailoring the evidence from the witnesses into a timeline was very clever, it was the only way he could raise doubt - but he never produced that recording of Oscar apparently sounding a like a woman when he screams, ........because HE DOESNT sound like a woman, but the Judge seemed to disregard this , despite Roux and Oscar saying that recording would be presented as evidence.

4 witnesses heard a woman screaming, it's totally implausible it could have been Oscar,(what was he screaming for ? frightened of a magazine rack ?) Even Prof Saayman, another very credible Prosecution Witness said that Reeva would have screamed out after that first shot to her hip........again ignored by the Judge. The Judge had to have believed that Reeva made NO noise at all from the moment she ran into that toilet and was shot at with 4 bullets, 3 penetrating her body, it's truly jaw dropping and implausible.

I think Reeva ran screaming to get away from him before she even got into that toilet, which is why witnesses heard ......a woman screaming in fear of her life, screaming like there was a home invasion going on , a woman screaming like her husband was being attacked in front of her, a woman screaming as if she was running down the road, a woman's petrified screams............which were the descriptions given by the witnesses.
 
Yes, it was very sad to see, and he also said he wanted to speak to Oscar didn't he. He's lost his little girl at the hands of this reckless immature pathetic man/boy,so can't imagine how he must be feeling, just so very tragic for the parents and family. This is what makes me seeth when I see Uncle Arnold and the rest of the family proclaim Oscar's innocence in their tweets and media conferences, reinforcing what they call 'terrible mistake' , and an 'accident' as is on Oscar's blog. They sat through that Trial and they heard Oscar's contradictions and inability to answer questions put to him by Nel, they know that Oscar withheld the truth, if they really know him. That....or Oscar really is just a very good liar, but also the family know he changed his Affidavit and Plea explanation and his Defence Claims during the Trial - not the behaviour of someone telling the truth from the outset was it.

I think none of Oscar's family know the truth , except Oscar's brother . I do think however, the sister MUST have asked him some questions too, but not sure she knows the whole truth, as I think it would be a burden for her to carry so I don't think Oscar will have told her - but either way,Oscar's family know he was lying, can't see how they couldn't know. They will stand by him as his reputation and future also reflects on them. The reason I think the brother knows the truth and Oscar confided in him and only him was because of his behaviour in Court when Oscar was being cross examined, it was his body language, often sitting bolt upright and edging forward in his seat mumbling away as if trying to remind Oscar to stick to his rehearsed 'version' when he was being asked some tricky questions and got tongue-tied and didn't answer Nel directly.

While I still believe there’s a good chance no one knows the truth (yes, including Roux) except Oscar, it’s entirely possible that Carl and Aimee know way more than they let on. (Could OP really take a chance telling even his family the ugly, horrific, self-damning truth? Murder is not something you ever want to admit, especially to those who love you. He’s lost everything else, he sure doesn’t want to lose his family support, too.)

I suspect if OP told anyone the truth, it would be Carl. Aside from Uncle Arnie, Carl seems to be the steady, stalwart rock in the family. Aimee, so very emotional in court...not so much. She, I think, could break under enough pressure. I think perhaps OP and Carl have told her certain small secrets, but have kept much from her. After all, the fewer people who know the whole truth, the fewer people who can spill it.
 
For those who are interested in the timeline, enjoy puzzles and would like to help.

I've been attempting to reconcile the evidence between 01:48:48 and 03:17:20. It’s no easy task and in some respects I don’t blame the judge for saying “it doesn’t help”. I now have a chart with all the evidence of 10 witnesses plus OP. I’ll put it up when finished but it may be a few days as I’ve got other commitments coming up.

To give just one example of the problem (and there are a few other examples):

If we try and marry up the screams of “help, help, help” we have 5 witnesses who testify to hearing it.

1 and 2. Burger and Johnson hear it before the only set of bangs they hear (I use ‘bangs’ to not prejudge which are shots in this example). I’ll designate this PRE, so that’s PRE 2.

3. Dr Stipp hears it after hearing both sets of bangs and placing his successful call to security at 03:15:51-03:16:07 (his wife doesn’t hear it). I’ll call this POST. So far it’s PRE 2 vs POST 1. Masipa arbitrarily places this call before the second bangs in her chronology, thus ignoring both the Stipps’ evidence. I’ll stick with their evidence here but even so we already have a disagreement about the time sequence of the “helps”.

4. Carice Viljoen hears it but it could be before or after the final bangs as she then closes her sliding door and goes back to bed. She tells Roux that she hears it about 5 minutes before being told of the call to her father. This call ends at 03:19:27, Carice hears a commotion and gets up. Her mother therefore probably tells her at around 03:20+, making the “helps” around 03:15-ish. This could easily be before or after the second bangs because guessing an interval of 5 minutes is not easy. I’ll call this UNDECIDED which is fine as it contradicts nothing and supports nothing.

5. Finally Eonite Nhlengethwa hears it after a single bang but doesn’t hear any subsequent bangs (her husband is checking the house at this time so doesn’t hear it). Nel gets her to agree that the single bang followed by the “helps” with no further bangs would agree with the end of Dr Stipps timeline. Nel would have this as a POST.

Ignoring OP (who is a PRE) we have PRE 2, POST 2, UNDECIDED 1.

However, Nel may not be right about Mrs Nhgenlethwa. If Stipp phones security and then hears the “helps”, they must occur after his call ends at 03:16:07. Mr Nhlengethwa places his first call after his wife hears the “helps” (while he is checking the house) at 03:16:13 (didn’t go through). This is just 6 seconds later, so to agree with Stipp this is the maximum window for Mrs N to hear the “helps” and for Mr N to return to the bedroom from checking the house, look out of the window, talk with his wife and hear loud crying before finding the number and placing his first call. This simply isn’t realistic. So it’s a PRE? But then we have to account for an awake, alert Mr & Mrs N not hearing any further bangs (or screams).

Like I said, not easy. Is it important? Yes, because these discrepancies are part of the reason Masipa finds the witnesses unreliable and a lot of evidence is lost without accepting their testimony, particularly those that hear a woman screaming after OP claims to have already killed Reeva.

Any thoughts are welcome.

Wow I just want to say good job and you are very detailed. To me, the overriding factor is that the Stipps were adamant that they heard two different voices. And that one who was screaming was clearly the woman's voice. If there was no fight with Reeva, and also no intruder, why would they have heard 2 different voices? I don't believe the 2 different voices were both Oscar's.
 
The heart of reason in this case is that when you accept that the evidence supports the bat strikes after the gun shots the events CANNOT have happened as the state put forward. Everything else flows from that.

Just out of interest and with all respect is there anything at all in Pistorious's version of events that troubles you? Any aspects of his evidence and the case in general that make you pause and think 'well that sounds highly unlikely' or do you believe that while on the stand he told 'the whole truth and nothing but the truth?'. TIA
 
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