Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[mirage1]

Great! Now where would a scrap of evidence for that be?

I mentioned it in my larger first post, which I was hoping you would address? ie, the fan position, among other things etc.

 

[jay-jay]

Great! Now where would a scrap of evidence for that be?

Likewise, where is your evidence for it being a tragic accident?

OP's 'word', that's all you have .. since when has a murderer's word ever been considered reliable?

 

[JuneBug67]

That's right, and he also said he would need to check through the rest. I wonder if he was ever given the opportunity to do so and to add his comments. In fairness he should have been, since he had only just heard it for the first time.

He was given an entire case to provide an explanation for the first sounds and a non-selective timeline. He couldn't, and he didn't. The defense could, and they did.

 

[jay-jay]

I mentioned it in my larger first post, which I was hoping you would address? ie, the fan position etc.

Yep, that and tons more .. there is tons more hard proof of OP's story being totally fabricated than there is proof for his version being true. It's amazing how selective hearing works, isn't it.

 

[mirage1]

Time lines can be messy, because nobody was actually there and saw it happen, and in this case it is incorrect the case for premeditated murder hung on this alone, because as you say there was much much more. It seems the judge ignored the most incriminating and objective evidence against Oscar which was the crime scene photos completely contradicted his entire excuse for getting out of bed and buying time for reeva to slip out the bathroom unseen. Without that his story cannot be possibly true.

His story of moving two fans, closing the balcony door and closing the blinds, , the duvet, the jeans on the duvet, was proven not true, which surely proved his story was untrue. It's just unbelievable this was ignored. He claimed he had two fans plugged into the extension socket, when there was no room to even plug it in!

 

[jimmy73]

bbm
tragic absolutely.

i am sorry, and it may have started with a momentary misperception [sliding window at the blue lamp], but further misperceptions then piled up one after the other:

thinking a window opening was an intruder... and not his girlfriend - who he knew was awake, and who had also had just the right amount of time - since they last spoke - to have walked to the bathroom and open said window.
thinking reeva was still in bed
by the bed - thinking a silent reeva had heard him
in the corridor - again believing a non-responsive reeva had heard his shouts to phone police.
at the entrance to the bathroom - believing the toilet door slamming is equivalent to an intruder 'hiding'.
at the door - hearing wood move on a tiled floor and believing the door is opening.
with the shots - shooting four times and thinking the person behind the door would not be killed.

I posted quite a while back regarding the compound probability of all these coincidences and misperceptions. It's all extremely improbable.

Perhaps Pistorius was just spectacularly unfortunate, or more likely, just guilty as charged.

 

[Cloen]

https://www.littlebrown.co.uk/Articles/REEVA_JUNE_STEENKAMP.page
Book Titled : Reeva- A Mother's Story
Article reads: Due to be published in hardback on 10th November 2014, June Steenkamp’s memoir of her beloved daughter, REEVA, will tell, for the first time, the full story behind the most dramatic trial of the 21st Century.

Article also says : June Steenkamp will be in the UK on publication

 

[Cherwell]

I posted quite a while back regarding the compound probability of all these coincidences and misperceptions. It's all extremely improbable.

Perhaps Pistorius was just spectacularly unfortunate, or more likely, just guilty as charged.

Well, as things stand, he seems to have been spectacularly fortunate.

 

[jay-jay]

He was given an entire case to provide an explanation for the first sounds and a non-selective timeline. He couldn't, and he didn't. The defense could, and they did.

You know something .. I have a feeling that you (one) could take virtually any murder case and provide an alternative view, or 'proof' that they did not carry out the murder. Fortunately, in the UK where you have juries made up of normal people with common sense, and who get to see and hear every piece of evidence ( like as how in this case we never actually did) and there is no pulling the wool over their eyes .. ok, once in a blue moon they might get it wrong but not normally. I bet you anything you like that I could go through the whole of the evidence put forward for say, someone like Mark Bridger, or Stuart Hazell, and give an alternative view that would put them in the clear, just as how is being done with Pistorius .. even forensics could be explained away in one way or another, again, just as how is being done with Pistorius. .But, what is the difference between Pistorius znd the other murderers? Oh yes, he just so happens to be South Africa's golden boy .. there is no way he was ever going to go down for murdering Reeva, he is no ordinary, run of the mill murderer, he is a special one and needs special treatment, and anyone who doesn't believe he is capable of murder will just be labelled as some kind of nutter/conspiracy theorist .. that's how governments manage to get away with dodgy stuff time and time again, by belittling and denegrating anyone who dares to question or attempts to find out the truth.r

 

[Interested Bystander]

I find a degree of irony in the fact that it is the people who are so certain about what they can't truly be certain about who are most dismissive of Oscar's misplaced certainty that night.

This unfolded over a very short time comparatively and standing up near the door is completely consistent with trying to listen outside to try to comprehend what was going on and to put yourself in a position to exit quickly if necessary. She could hear Oscar but she does't know where the potential danger is relative to him - why would she form an immediate response of calling out?

Because he could only have been 6-8 feet away. If his voice was in the distance she might have stayed mute. Think about it. I would certainly know if my husband spoke to me in the bathroom from only a few feet away.

 

[sleuth-d-]

It was an uncontradicted fact as far as the court was concerned. It was put forth by the defense and supported with objective physical evidence by both experts. This is so pivotal. If you can't appreciate the significance of this you will never appreciate why this is the correct verdict legally as far as targeting Reeva and almost certainly the truth in fact.

i believe the uncontraverted fact you are talking about is the crack in the door which has a bullet hole in it.
which leads you/masipa to gunshots first.
which leads you/masipa to it can't be reeva screaming
which leads you/masipa to it must be oscar screaming
which leads you/masipa to believe the defence timeline.
which leads you/masipa to believe op's story.


so for you/masipa the whole case hinges [oops] on that crack in the door. would i be correct in that thinking?
i really do need time for a more detailed look at the door evidence...

 

[jay-jay]

There was physical evidence on the door that supported three bat strikes as per the state. The defence claimed the possibility of a fourth one higher up on the cross of Vermulen, while Oscar himself testified to recalling three. So it's not a great example of trying to game the evidence.

.. and Masipa decided there were four, seeing as how she said that Burger must've heard the bat instead of shots, and Burger most definitely hear four bangs ... ( bang ....... bang, bang,bang) .. which just so happens to be the exact same number as the number of shots. Isn't that lucky.

Burger heard gun shots, no question about it. It matches the forensics exactly.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It was an uncontradicted fact as far as the court was concerned. It was put forth by the defense and supported with objective physical evidence by both experts. This is so pivotal. If you can't appreciate the significance of this you will never appreciate why this is the correct verdict legally as far as targeting Reeva and almost certainly the truth in fact.

As you're on the same page as J Masipa and I suppose that includes OP too, can you explain what she meant by, 'Reeva died in very peculiar circumstances'. It's got me baffled considering her judgement. TIA

 

[Sherbert]

Masipa: "In any event, the evidence of Mr Lin, an acoustic engineer, cast serious doubt on whether witnesses who were 80 metres and 177 metres away respectively from the accused’s house would be able to differentiate between a man and a woman’s screams, if the screams were from the toilet with closed windows."

I just checked Lin's real evidence. Even his own modelling using 110dB for the scream (he says typical scream is 110dB to 120dB) allows for:

80m, listener on the balcony = definitely audible + definitely intelligible
80m, listener in the bedroom = definitely audible + definitely intelligible
177m, listener on the balcony = definitely audible + possibly intelligible
177m, listener in the bedroom = extremely unlikely to be audible

Surely Masipa's statement is simply false?

Yes and, arguably, her incorrect statement is also evidence of a lack of impartiality.

Whilst the Courts are, for obvious reasons, reluctant to entertain complaints of judicial bias, they will consider and uphold genuine complaints:

'And the Supreme Court of Appeal was so disturbed by Northern Cape Judge President Frans Kgomo's hostility towards the man he found guilty of stabbing 13-year-old Biron Phetlo to death with a sword that it quashed his conviction and 24-year sentence.

Five of the appeal court's judges, led by Judge Nathan Ponnan, on Thursday ruled unanimously that Judge Kgomo's approach to Joseph le Grange's murder trial was "certainly suggestive of one who has certain preconceived biases and allows those biases to affect his judgment".'

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/judge-allowed-bias-to-cloud-judgment-1.417069#.VB3SgvnA7hB

Apart from the fact that Masipa J misrepresented Lin's evidence, we have the following evidence of bias:

the inexplicable dismissal of the illegal possession of ammunition charge
the finding that OP intentionally fired four black talon bullets into a confined space without intention to kill
the acceptance of the fear of intruder story as reasonably possibly true, albeit 'peculiar'
the undue weight placed upon OP's post-event remorse
the dismissal of the State's earwitness evidence of female screams as unreliable
the weight given to the Defence's earwitnesses in relation to the pre-shots screams, even though those witnesses didn't actually hear the shots
the weight given to the hearsay evidence of Mr Van der Merwe that OP cries like a woman
the dismissal of Prof Saayman's evidence confirming that Reeva would have screamed after the first shot
the dismissal of Capt Mangena's evidence that the killing was intentional
the dismissal of Sean Ren's testimony that OP knew that his conduct was unlawful
the undue weight accorded to Dr Vorster's GAD diagnosis, despite Weskoppies' finding that OP didn't have GAD

I feel that a reasonable person would be very suspicious indeed that Masipa J possessed preconceived ideas which she allowed to affect her judgement. And the above list is just for starters...

 

[Pirate Doug]

According to his own testimony, Oscar screamed before and after the gunshots, and the bat strikes. I don't see anything in any of the witnesses testimonies that contradicts this version. Only that some of them might have forgotten the exact timings, so what? I would be frankly very surprised if all the ear witnesses could provide an accurate time that they heard the sounds, because it was the early hours of the morning, and everyone had been asleep. It would have taken some people longer than others to become aware of the situation..

The only question pertaining to this, as far as I'm concerned, is whether or not any of the screams that were overheard were Reeva's or not?

It makes no real difference to the material and circumstantial evidence that prove Oscar is lying.

 

[Pirate Doug]

I just found this on an old thread, and it's exactly what I believe:

IMO - it is now the responsibility of the NPA and legal advocates in SA and in the international legal community - to apply adequate pressure to bring about an Appeal of this Judgement - given that many believe that the Judge in this case has made an error in Law. This case was important for the SA justice system.
The world is watching.

Allegations of corruption are concerning: Was Masipa then given 'the poison chalice" so to speak? She was a woman Judge who arose from black SA.
Was she then vulnerable to powerful influences 'beyond her control'? Was she a poor legal scholar as some have claimed? How did these alleged 'errors in Law' come about? An Appeal to a higher authority seems warranted, but will this higher authority be subjected to those same powerful influences? Will this woman Judge become a 'scapegoat'? Was her judgement influenced?

Could corruption be reasonably possibly true in this case? Error interpreting the Law? Then it is up to the NPA to move forward with an Appeal in the interest of Justice here.

My opinion only.
Last edited by Fuskier; 09-14-2014 at 02:37 AM.

 

[Sherbert]

Pierre de Vos @pierredevos · Sep 17

Was problem with Oscar judgment not perhaps that Judge required state to prove guilt beyond ANY doubt instead of beyond reasonable doubt?

(Deputy Dean, University of Cape Town Law Faculty )

Yes, and that complaint could be a neat method of getting to mistake of law from mistake of fact.

 

[patCee]

~snipped~

Masipa very cleverly twisted that to make it that Reeva couldn't have screamed after all of her wounds .. well, we know that .. but a number of experts have said that she could've, and would've, screamed immediately upon being hit in the hip. Once again, Masipa chose to ignore this, and manipulate it so that it fitted in with the verdict she wanted to give.

IIRC Saayman suggested RS screaming after being hit by a shot would have likely been involuntary. I couldn't find the exact quote but Lisa in her juror13 blog supports it

Home
Dr. Saayman, the Medical Examiner, is back on the stand.

The Judge starts the day by announcing that live tweets are now allowed. They are still going to black out the video and audio testimony, but journalists inside the court can live tweet.

Roux is setting up a defense that Oscar shot Reeva in quick succession rendering her unable to scream out before the head shot left her incapacitated. This would explain why according to Oscar’s version of the story, Reeva never made any noise at all that night.

However Saayman does not think this is possible. The following are points from his testimony that have been compiled from various reporters in the courtroom:

In the immediate seconds after being shot, mental incapacitation would be minimal, that comes later. The shot to the brain however would cause immediate incapacitation.

Screaming is still possible even after cognitive dysfunction, it would be normal.
By cognitive dysfunction, I refer to higher mental capacity. Screaming is not higher mental capacity.

If someone knows their life is in danger, the stress response, or fight or flight, starts to kick in. In a scenario like this, before somebody is about to sustain a gunshot wound, adrenaline and other kinds of hormones would kick in.

Saayman: “I think it would be abnormal if one did not scream after sustaining an injury of this nature.”

BBM

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-7/

 

[Cherwell]

Yes and, arguably, her incorrect statement is also evidence of a lack of impartiality.

Whilst the Courts are, for obvious reasons, reluctant to entertain complaints of judicial bias, they will consider and uphold genuine complaints:

'And the Supreme Court of Appeal was so disturbed by Northern Cape Judge President Frans Kgomo's hostility towards the man he found guilty of stabbing 13-year-old Biron Phetlo to death with a sword that it quashed his conviction and 24-year sentence.

Five of the appeal court's judges, led by Judge Nathan Ponnan, on Thursday ruled unanimously that Judge Kgomo's approach to Joseph le Grange's murder trial was "certainly suggestive of one who has certain preconceived biases and allows those biases to affect his judgment".'

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/judge-allowed-bias-to-cloud-judgment-1.417069#.VB3SgvnA7hB

Apart from the fact that Masipa J misrepresented Lin's evidence, we have the following evidence of bias:

the inexplicable dismissal of the illegal possession of ammunition charge
the finding that OP intentionally fired four black talon bullets into a confined space without intention to kill
the acceptance of the fear of intruder story as reasonably possibly true, albeit 'peculiar'
the undue weight placed upon OP's post-event remorse
the dismissal of the State's earwitness evidence of female screams as unreliable
the weight given to the Defence's earwitnesses in relation to the pre-shots screams, even though those witnesses didn't actually hear the shots
the weight given to the hearsay evidence of Mr Van der Merwe that OP cries like a woman
the dismissal of Prof Saayman's evidence confirming that Reeva would have screamed after the first shot
the dismissal of Capt Mangena's evidence that the killing was intentional
the dismissal of Sean Ren's testimony that OP knew that his conduct was unlawful
the undue weight accorded to Dr Vorster's GAD diagnosis, despite Weskoppies' finding that OP didn't have GAD

I feel that a reasonable person would be very suspicious indeed that Masipa J possessed preconceived ideas which she allowed to affect her judgement. And the above list is just for starters...

Let's add the sympathetic comment about not wanting him "to be punished twice".

 

[jimmy73]

Just been reading through Pistorius' bail statement again. His subsequent adaptation stinks.

But I cannot get my head round the first part of his account. He closes his balcony doors and curtains on a hot, still night to a room with no air conditioning.

It is ironic that state witnesses heard events unfolding having done the opposite.

That Pistorius' version(s) is accepted by anyone is beyond me.