Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[Cherwell]

It seems technically Frank was not "in the house"

Frank Chiziweni, a Malawian immigrant who lived in an outhouse next to Mr Pistorius’s kitchen, told police he had slept through everything.

So Nel is correct in his statement.

This is the danger of Masipa copying and pasting defence submissions from the HoA

Clearly there was someone else who could have shouted out - e.g. to call for help.

Your quote that I have highlighted in bold, that's from a newspaper report if I'm not mistaken. I'm not convinced that it's accurate.

Early reports had Frank living in a detached building somewhere in the garden, but there doesn't seem to be any such building.
I think it was later established that he had a room off the kitchen, which may have its own access, but is still part of the house.

 

[zwiebel]

I can't get that blasted recent Telegraph article to load. And even if I do, it'll swear I've used up my free views for the month and have to subscribe - even though I haven't.

I can hardly bear to read up on this case now anyhow. I feel such a great injustice has been done to Reeva.

 

[mrjitty]

What's the source of your info?

According to most articles I read ..Chiziweni slept on the ground floor of Pistorius's home:

BBM



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-at-Pistorius-home-on-night-of-shooting.html

There seem to be numerous references to

Frank Chiziweni is understood to have slept in the domestic quarters next to Pistorius's kitchen on the ground floor of his home on a security

...

When i lived in Malaysia the "domestic quarters" was a room attached to the house but the entrance to it was separate. So the maid did not enter the house after she left for the day. Although she was right there.

I wonder if this was similar?

Anyway - both sides seem to accept Frank was in his quarters which are not "in the house"

 

[44ALLAN]

Exactly! Why, why, why was this LIE told by both sides?

I can understand why both might hesitate to call Frank as a witness, but why would the Prosecution in particular deny his presence? Why not enter into evidence a signed statement that he heard nothing? If he was prevented from this in some way, or refused to cooperate, this should have been laid before the judge.

Bloody exactly.....................WHY did NEL not tell the court there was a housekeeper who lived within the residence and was there the night in question because he was seen by witnesses and police shortly after the incident 'dressed' and outside the house with the Standers and paramedics etc..................WHY?
He could then have said..............this guy /Frank heard nothing etc etc..........................
It had to be put into evidence surely/
Well having said that they ignored photo 55...........................................................................................

 

[mrjitty]

Your quote that I have highlighted in bold, that's from a newspaper report if I'm not mistaken. I'm not convinced that it's accurate.

Early reports had Frank living in a detached building somewhere in the garden, but there doesn't seem to be any such building.
I think it was later established that he had a room off the kitchen, which may have its own access, but is still part of the house.

Does anyone have the floorplan?

I can only find the top floor?

I would not be surprised if the "domestic quarters" is a single room built onto the house but with external access.

In any event - the Judge's reasoning is clear nonsensical as Frank was on the premises and capable of shouting for help for example.

I think Nel is correct to say he was not in the house, and thus not able to see what happened.

The fact that this situation can even exist seems to highlight the absurdity of proceedings.

 

[jilly]

Re bit in bold - it's my understanding that judge assignments in SA are on a rotating roster basis so it was just timing that his case and her name came up together. Guess though that he was lucky to get a 'hugging' as opposed to a 'hanging' judge, neither of which are desirable IMO.

I've also read that Masipa was not .... was not chosen specially for the Pistorius case -- she simply happened to be assigned to it,....
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-judge-masipa/

I'm sorry but I just can't believe that it was "timing that this case and her name came up together", as per your post.

I live in Canada which is part of the CommonWealth. There were a few similarities with Oscar's trial and Supreme Court trials here. I used to Clerk.
We have a Chief Justice of our Supreme Crt and every week the Chief Justice and the Trial Coordinator would meet and the trials were assigned to Judges. There were a number of factors to be considered before assigning a trial.

I cannot believe with such a high profile case in SA, that they would assign this case to a Judge on a first come, first serve basis. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[mrjitty]

Bloody exactly.....................WHY did NEL not tell the court there was a housekeeper who lived within the residence and was there the night in question because he was seen by witnesses and police shortly after the incident 'dressed' and outside the house with the Standers and paramedics etc..................WHY?
He could then have said..............this guy /Frank heard nothing etc etc..........................
It had to be put into evidence surely/
Well having said that they ignored photo 55...........................................................................................

The trouble is all evidence at trial needs to be admitted somehow.

So it would be hard for Nel to make a song and dance over Frank without calling him.

It really seems like the Judge forgot he was there.

 

[mrjitty]

I've also read that Masipa was not .... was not chosen specially for the Pistorius case -- she simply happened to be assigned to it,....
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-judge-masipa/

I'm sorry but I just can't believe that it was "timing that this case and her name came up together", as per your post.

I live in Canada which is part of the CommonWealth. There were a few similarities with Oscar's trial and Supreme Court trials here. I used to Clerk.
We have a Chief Justice of our Supreme Crt and every week the Chief Justice and the Trial Coordinator would meet and the trials were assigned to Judges. There were a number of factors to be considered before assigning a trial.

I cannot believe with such a high profile case in SA, that they would assign this case to a Judge on a first come, first serve basis. It doesn't even make sense.

Agreed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Pretty impressive Monty Fossil. :tyou: So there was 5 min connection just before 2 am. :thinking:

It's sad reading the whatsapps again, Reeva didn't want to go over, OP was a bear with a sore head or a 'slow burn' as Roux explained.

Many, many legal experts and people all around the world are on a slow burn too. This slow burn has the potential to explode into a raging inferno when the sentence is handed down.

 

[44ALLAN]

I can't get that blasted recent Telegraph article to load. And even if I do, it'll swear I've used up my free views for the month and have to subscribe - even though I haven't.

I can hardly bear to read up on this case now anyhow. I feel such a great injustice has been done to Reeva.

I have followed this case through 95% of your 'due diligence' and cannot thank you enough for your excellent coverage and time spent.
I have enjoyed every second of your commentary and I thank you implicitly
I too wanted to..................'switch off' and forget this debacle as I did after the OJ trial/debacle but I feel I need to get closure on this total injustice being a father with 3 kids myself...2 of them daughters...........not that it matters.....................OP is a lying murdering individual IMO but time will tell and I want to be here to see the final verdict.

Whatever you decide ..again many thanks for your time and effort it was much appreciated by myself and many others I'm sure

 

[mrjitty]

Here are links to the following spreadsheets in google docs:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

Witness testimony analysis

They are set up to share and allow comments, though I'm guessing you may need a gmail account to comment (only takes a few minutes to set up). If you'd rather post your thoughts on here that's fine or alternatively email me (montgomery.fossil@gmail.com) Please feel free to copy and do with them what you wish but I will generally only make changes that are based on firm evidence.

I've haven't used this facility before so it may need some tweaking!

Monty Fossil (in truth it took me longer to figure a name I liked that hadn't been used than to set the account and spreadsheets up!)

First up - thank you for this wonderful resource.

So this may appear lazy - but i have posted timelines elsewhere until blue in the face.

How do you believe the Johnson call can be reconciled to the timelines of Stipp/Mr N?

To put my cards on the table - I believe the shots come 2nd, and are heard by Stipp & Mrs Nhlengethwa in the mins before the security calls.

I believe only the Stipps hear the first sounds - indeed they are the only people to confuse the bat strikes in the bathroom with gunshots.

To my mind this was Roux's great finesse.

There never were 4 bat strikes on the toilet door. No one ever got confused.

Your timeline seems to support the Roux version?

 

[mister happy]

Just wondering if Oscar can own firearms after being convicted of culpable homicide?

 

[zwiebel]

I have followed this case through 95% of your 'due diligence' and cannot thank you enough for your excellent coverage and time spent.
I have enjoyed every second of your commentary and I thank you implicitly
I too wanted to..................'switch off' and forget this debacle as I did after the OJ trial/debacle but I feel I need to get closure on this total injustice being a father with 3 kids myself...2 of them daughters...........not that it matters.....................OP is a lying murdering individual IMO but time will tell and I want to be here to see the final verdict.

Whatever you decide ..again many thanks for your time and effort it was much appreciated by myself and many others I'm sure

Oh no, not abandoning the case at all!....Just mulling over the best way to achieve justice for Reeva, if the law fails her completely.

Incidentally, don't know if any of you know, but a supreme egotist amateur runner named Ganesh 'Remy' Ramsaran (a computer worker who managed to reactivate his Facebook while in jail) quoted the Oscar Pistorius camp word for word in his testimony in his New York murder trial: 'I'm fighting for my life here'.

It went down like a lead weight with a New York jury and he was found guilty of the murder of his wife, Tuesday. Facing 25 to life.

Just thought it was worth mentioning, in case any other murderers out there should happen to view Oscar as an 'inspirational' model.

 

[jilly]

I have followed this case through 95% of your 'due diligence' and cannot thank you enough for your excellent coverage and time spent.
I have enjoyed every second of your commentary and I thank you implicitly
I too wanted to..................'switch off' and forget this debacle as I did after the OJ trial/debacle but I feel I need to get closure on this total injustice being a father with 3 kids myself...2 of them daughters...........not that it matters.....................OP is a lying murdering individual IMO but time will tell and I want to be here to see the final verdict.

Whatever you decide ..again many thanks for your time and effort it was much appreciated by myself and many others I'm sure

It does matter! You're daughters are lucky to have you for a father!

 

[zwiebel]

Just wondering if Oscar can own firearms after being convicted of culpable homicide?

If he can, will the last person to leave South Africa please turn the lights out as you go?

 

[44ALLAN]

The trouble is all evidence at trial needs to be admitted somehow.

So it would be hard for Nel to make a song and dance over Frank without calling him.

It really seems like the Judge forgot he was there.

Then why did he admit into evidence the broken tiles/broken bath panel/jeans outside the window photo/broken bedroom door/hole through bedroom door.................need I go on?
None of this was mentioned or discussed during the trial so why waste court time and money taking photos and putting it into evidence...............WHY ?

 

[jilly]

Just wondering if Oscar can own firearms after being convicted of culpable homicide?

Probably. Look for numerous conditions!

 

[zwiebel]

I didn't provide a link to the article about the New York runner/murderer who appears to have been inspired by Oscar, during his defense. Here it is. By the way, that attorney getting annoyed with Ramsaran in the quote is his own attorney!

'Wednesday, Remy verbally waived his right to testify, but he changed his mind and took the stand on Thursday.
"Extremely, I'm here fighting for my life, man!" Remy said after being asked if he was nervous.
Defense Attorney Gilberto Garcia questioned Remy all day long, and got aggravated with his client on several occasions.
"Listen to my questions," Garcia said to Remy. "I'm getting frustrated!" '

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Gane...-stand-in-his-own-murder-trial-275664951.html

 

[44ALLAN]

Oh no, not abandoning the case at all!....Just mulling over the best way to achieve justice for Reeva, if the law fails her completely.

Incidentally, don't know if any of you know, but a supreme egotist amateur runner named Ganesh 'Remy' Ramsaran (a computer worker who managed to reactivate his Facebook while in jail) quoted the Oscar Pistorius camp word for word in his testimony in his New York murder trial: 'I'm fighting for my life here'.

It went down like a lead weight with a New York jury and he was found guilty of the murder of his wife, Tuesday. Facing 25 to life.

Just thought it was worth mentioning, in case any other murderers out there should happen to view Oscar as an 'inspirational' model.

Did he wake up and put his face in his hands before he killed his wife with all the lights out?
Dear god..................no words

 

[44ALLAN]

It does matter! You're daughters are lucky to have you for a father!

Many thank jilly for that sentiment I appreciate it.

When i said..............(not that it matters)I think I was trying to relate to the mum and dad of Reeva /June and Barry and what the hell they must be going through..............I'm blessed my 3 kids are still with me.

I have tried every time I hear the evidence during the trial to give OP the benefit of the doubt...............I've struggled and I'm still struggling regardless of the verdict.
I also think most of the educated world know he's a murderer....................we shall see but I don't think the final outcome will be with the forthcoming sentencing that's for sure lol