Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[Lux et Veritas]

After a brief period of hopefulness, I am getting cynical again. As of now, I don't think there will be an appeal (for whatever reasons), or if there is an appeal it will be squashed by the higher courts. The dreadful Masipa will give her boy Oscar a wimpy sentence (no prison time, of course) and that will be that. The person who is really rustling my jimmies now is uncle Arnie. I can't help but think that his wealth, power and influence had an effect in this farce.

Perhaps that's why he was always smiling in court.

Strange and frightening family.

 

[vanatos]

Poor Masipa, Poor OP.. seems the only person not getting any sympathy is Reeva... My god, it's like a pity party!!!

I did believe Masipa's verdict would be a total set-back for female judges.

It's like the court doesn't realize that when your in the public eye, you conduct yourself with the utmost professionalism and don't get anything wrong.

Did she consult with anyone on points of law? i mean...that would be damn useful and important

 

[geevee]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29193657
BBC News Africa

Pistorius trial: South Africans still looking for finality
by Andrew Harding, Africa correspondent.
14 September 2014

"...The gap between a murder verdict and culpable homicide is obviously a narrow and at least partially subjective one" ... "meantime, the legal pundits here - are now either accusing the judge of not understanding the law, or polishing their knives in preparation for an appeal" ... "There is still the crucial matter of sentencing - and the very real possibility that Judge Thokosile Masipa will seek to make an example of a man whom, until now, she has favoured with a generous portion of reasonable doubt" ... "We'll be in a better position to put it all in context after Judge Masipa has passed sentence on Oscar Pistorius. For now, the prospect of forgiveness and redemption seems a long way off.

I tend to think many will be as angrily confused at the sentence as most were with the verdicts.

 

[eimajjjj]

At least Masipa has already made quite clear that his disability/vulnerability does not excuse his negligence so that wipes out a big section of DT's mitigation plans and SHOULD mean he's given a tougher sentence. Well, on the planet I thought were all sharing anyway.

 

[Fuskier]

Australian HeraldSun Newspaper: Opinion
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...victims-of-crime/story-fni0fg0d-1227060651279

Oscar Pistorius Ruling Has Failed So Many Victims of Crime
BEVERLEY O’CONNOR HERALD SUN SEPTEMBER 17, 2014 12:00AM

THE stunned consensus in South Africa appears to be that Oscar Pistorius “dodged a bullet” when he was found not guilty last week ... but it’s been mirrored within a growing body of experienced criminal lawyers who believe, without question, that High Court judge Thokozile Masipa got it horribly wrong...

South African criminal lawyer Martin Hood believes the verdict will be challenged and is most likely to end up in the Supreme Court of Appeal before five judges.

"Not many disagree with Judge Masipa’s verdict on premeditated murder, given the facts were open to doubt with unreliable witness accounts on both sides.
But the option of common law murder is where hope had built for a critical precedent... “It’s an area of law that needs clarification by a higher court"...

“More importantly ...the very high level of intimate partner crime we have in this country ... society was hoping this case would be a turning point where intimate partner violence would be dealt with very harshly”... Disturbingly, it leaves the door open for more people to argue that when they kill somebody, and in particular an intimate partner, they can argue they did it by accident and get away with it.

“That’s not a particularly healthy approach to our laws. We want people to be charged and convicted of murder it they kill their partners,” Martin Hood says.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

I agree with all of the above, but don't forget the intruder/s noisily opened the window so that it hit the frame, and more importantly, slammed the toilet door shut. These 5 things in themselves would prove to any idiot that no burglars/intruders would ever do this.

I saw a video of black intruders entering a house in SA who were caught on surveillance video. About 4 of them entered the house and you should have seen the way they crept around. They definitely didn't want to make a sound as no intruders would ever go out of their way, especially in the middle of the night, to be banging windows, all entering a toilet and then slam the door. It's the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. But Masipa in her wisdom bought that story.

I must say here, as a South African who've lived through some attacks by intruders, I would forewarn you as to the fact that they are really as frequent. And they are dangerous and harmful attacks. Please don't think that I am siding with OP at any time. I just want to make clear that intrusions like this are commonplace in South Africa

 

[vanatos]

I must say here, as a South African who've lived through some attacks by intruders, I would forewarn you as to the fact that they are really as frequent. And they are dangerous and harmful attacks. Please don't think that I am siding with OP at any time. I just want to make clear that intrusions like this are commonplace in South Africa

How often do break-ins happen to rich peoples houses with full-on security systems like gates, guards etc in SA?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thank you for this!! Yes, I was on here earlier today. Interested Bystander, I read that regional magistrate courts could deal with charges with murder (I read this in another document). So I am wondering why it went to High Court for OP's crime, especially in light of how it restricts the state re: appeal. Will re-read again, in case I missed the rationale. Thanks!

Murders can be heard by either court, however OP was charged with a schedule 6 offence (murder, including premeditated murder). That's why it went straight to the High Court.

 

[Feynman]

Well, nobody is immune from a mistake, not even you or me. You are mistaken about milligrams. It should be millilitres but they type millimeters. They quote the record one of the times, and perhaps it was mistranscribed there or Nel did indeed misspeak as they do sound so alike. I guess it really doesn't matter, mistakes are there to be made aren't they?

Nel showed amazing grasp of concept, principle and logic time and time again during the trial. He often exposed conceptual flaws or faulty/missed ideas in the understanding of supposed experts in their field, usually with no preparation or consultation, despite not being able to even pronounce a lot of the things he was discussing. I have to say, on this aspect he was seriously impressive.

Yes you are right: I should have said "milliliters" instead of "milligrams". In the HOA, "millimeters" occurs 3 times. I think that is a pretty bad mistake.

You and I think differently about Nel. I thought he was unimpressive. I wrote so here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ead-45-14-07-3-Day-36&p=10699898#post10699898

 

[wb180]

Yes you are right: I should have said "milliliters" instead of "milligrams". In the HOA, "millimeters" occurs 3 times. I think that is a pretty bad mistake.

You and I think differently about Nel. I thought he was unimpressive. I wrote so here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ead-45-14-07-3-Day-36&p=10699898#post10699898

Yes you are one of the minority people who thinks Masipa got it right in her judgment.

 

[JudgeJudi]

“Competent Verdicts: Being Charged With A Lesser Offence

(I've omitted all irrelevant text)

When a person is charged with a particular offence, an accused should be aware that even if the state cannot prove the offence with which he is charged, he may be convicted on a competent verdict to that offence.

The Criminal Procedure Act allows for a court to find the accused guilty on a competent verdict where the state has failed to prove that the accused has committed the charged offence, but the evidence is sufficient to prove the accused's guilt on a competent verdict to the offence with which he was charged.

The following are a few examples of competent verdicts that exist if an accused is charged with a particular offence:

...

• Murder and attempted murder: The accused may be found guilty of inter alia culpable homicide, assault with intention to do grievous bodily harm, robbery, common assault, public violence or pointing a firearm.
• Culpable homicide (where the accused by way of negligence caused the death of another person): The accused may be found guilty of inter alia assault with intention to do grievous bodily harm, robbery, common assault, public violence or pointing a firearm.

It is important to note, that the prosecutor does not have to list the competent verdicts in the charge sheet. ... The accused can be found guilty of the competent verdict/s even though not formally charged with them. People must be aware that there are other lesser offences with which they can be charged and convicted, if the original offence with which they are charged cannot be proven, but the evidence is sufficient to prove the competent verdict.”

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=4843104

 

[turaj]

I must say here, as a South African who've lived through some attacks by intruders, I would forewarn you as to the fact that they are really as frequent. And they are dangerous and harmful attacks. Please don't think that I am siding with OP at any time. I just want to make clear that intrusions like this are commonplace in South Africa

Apples you make probably the only argument upon which I think OP had some basis for his case...but even then you still call out and verify where other people are before shooting and you clearly know you may kill that person inside the room.

 

[JudgeJudi]

They will not ban OP from the games and it would be unfair to other competitors if people boycotted games because of him.
I think an old school method to show public opinion and disrespect should be used.
If Oscar runs all spectators should turn their backs on him and not watch.
Maybe start a group on some Facebook and Google+ to arrange this.

Crowdsourcing would be the way to go. A big block of people who want to see the games but who will in this case, all turn their backs whenever he's on the track. They'd all need to sit together obviously.

He hasn't trained for 18 months. I don't believe for one minute he'll ever race again.

 

[Feynman]

LOL Feynman, your reply cracks me up too, I don't know if you meant it to. :wink:

I think you missed the point, you said Gerrie Nel hardly used Reeva's name? Is that reasonably possibly true? Also, imo, when Nel is talking to the 'experts', he must run it home she is the 'deceased'. It is a trial about her murder after all. Masipa is the person I have issues with.

FYI- even though it doesn't mean much.

gerrie nel pistorius deceased - About 119,000 results (0.34 seconds)

gerrie nel reeva - About 351,000 results (0.29 seconds)

Nel Pistorius "the deceased" - About 14,500 results (0.30 seconds)

No I didn't say "Gerrie Nel hardly used Reeva's name". turaj had claimed Nel ALWAYS used "Reeva" in referring to RS. I responded to turaj by saying "hardly". Meaning the claim was hardly true. Remember, the claim was ALWAYS, a claim that you heartily seconded, adding a slightly insulting "I don't know what trial you were watching". ALWAYS. That's a high and mighty claim. Think about it. To prove "always" is false, all I need is one counterexample. I provided loads of them. And I stand by my guess that in court proceedings Nel referred to RS more often as "the deceased" than "Reeva".

And, my friend, no: your google searches don't show anything. Of course [gerrie nel reeva] brings up zillions of hits; that has little to do with the proportion of Nel's "Reeva" vs. "the deceased" uttered in court.

I would add: This might be a telling instance of the fallibility of witness memory. You and I and turaj all watched the same trial. You have your memory of it, I have mine. I think I've shown I'm right about this one issue. I'm sure I would be wrong about others. It's healthy to ponder this.

Best, F.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I must say here, as a South African who've lived through some attacks by intruders, I would forewarn you as to the fact that they are really as frequent. And they are dangerous and harmful attacks. Please don't think that I am siding with OP at any time. I just want to make clear that intrusions like this are commonplace in South Africa

ApplesInMyBra, I just re-read my post and can see why you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I've now edited it from "It's the most preposterous thing" to "OP's story is the most preposterous thing". Thank you.

 

[808]

Crowdsourcing would be the way to go. A big block of people who want to see the games but who will in this case, all turn their backs whenever he's on the track. They'd all need to sit together obviously.

He hasn't trained for 18 months. I don't believe for one minute he'll ever race again.

I would be amazed if he ever did. He star was on the decline after 2012 Olympics anyway with Oliviera beating him and a last place in the able bodied 400 semis. At that competitive level in either para or able bodied he would be beaten and never make the big show.

The para athletes had caught up in technology and he is ageing in the sport. If there is 1/2 a solace out of this it will be that he will never wobble up on any victory podium in the future. The "terrible accident" has made sure of that I am confident.

"STELLENBOSCH, South Africa -- For any track athlete, time counts more than anything else. The minutes, the seconds and the fractions of seconds. For Oscar Pistorius now, it's the days, weeks, months and -- maybe -- the years that pass."
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/a-runn...rius-s-career-go-next-1.1241661#ixzz3DXnoKGpJ

Over a year on from this article and I believe he would never get back to any competitive level again.

(He could however go for the trap shooting which he may excel at :bullseye::thinking

 

[Feynman]

OP claims to have heard sounds in the bathroom. At that point, he's supposedly in the bedroom right by Reeva, who he says was in bed. Now, what person, in this situation, would not immediately whisper to their partner: "did you hear that?" and expect a response. I've been in exactly that situation many times, and it's always what I do. After all, it's not uncommon to hear a strange unidentified sound in the middle of the night. In my case, it's never been an intruder, always an animal, door banging in the breeze, etc. I even had a fox in the house once (lots of fox attacks in my area!)

With your partner right there beside you, why would you go gung-ho towards the perceived danger, without eliciting a response from your partner first?

No one would, regardless of disability.

No one?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I would be amazed if he ever did. He star was on the decline after 2012 Olympics anyway with Oliviera beating him and a last place in the able bodied 400 semis. At that competitive level in either para or able bodied he would be beaten and never make the big show.

The para athletes had caught up in technology and he is ageing in the sport. If there is 1/2 a solace out of this it will be that he will never wobble up on any victory podium in the future. The "terrible accident" has made sure of that I am confident.

"STELLENBOSCH, South Africa -- For any track athlete, time counts more than anything else. The minutes, the seconds and the fractions of seconds. For Oscar Pistorius now, it's the days, weeks, months and -- maybe -- the years that pass."
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/a-runn...rius-s-career-go-next-1.1241661#ixzz3DXnoKGpJ

Over a year on from this article and I believe he would never get back to any competitive level again.

(He could however go for the trap shooting which he may excel at :bullseye::thinking

You know what? I wouldn't put it passed him. :furious:

 

[808]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

No one?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

Yes, we've discussed this case innumerable times during OP's trial.

Two points I would like to make, J Masipa's opinion that OP cried 'intruder' from the get-go, now couldn't this much publicized case given OP his story? Very highly likely, you have brought it up yourself, OP just did the same.

My second point, Mdunge shot his wife ONCE as she opened the door, he IMMEDIATELY drove her to the hospital as she was still ALIVE but unfortunately, died from her injury.

JMO