Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[WilliamMunter]

For those that haven't seen the BBC3 documentary

 

[Chelly]

Forgive me for asking what I'm sure has already been discussed here. I just haven't seen what I'm looking for:
It appears Judge Masipa has an LLB Degree, or Bachelor of Laws. Could someone equate that to U.S. law degrees and qualifications for M1 trial. Thanks so much.

 

[jslk]

I just caught up with the BBC3 documentary today; the Steenkamps are remarkable people [emoji17]


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[ApplesInMyBra]

Apples you make probably the only argument upon which I think OP had some basis for his case...but even then you still call out and verify where other people are before shooting and you clearly know you may kill that person inside the room.

Oh I absolutely agree that if such intrusions do happen, there is no question that one would ask and verify with your loved one if they heard the same thing you did, before taking action.

 

[wb180]

admittedly the post-shooting behaviour differs... but the incident is startlingly similar. and if this was in the news at the time... there goes masipa's argument as to why op immediately had the intruder story, and stuck to it.

sorry to repeat the content but i am so amazed by the similarities:

In his plea, Mdunge said he and Thobile were asleep at their home when he was woken at about 00:00 on 13 April 2011 “by a strange noise like a window opening”.

He thought that a burglar was trying to get into the house.

'Fearful of his life'

“The accused was fearful of his life and grabbed the gun that he keeps in his bedside pedestal drawer at night for protection from unwanted intruders in his home.

“The accused then made his way to the entrance door of the room and could hear the noise coming from the bathroom.

“The accused then slowly made his way to the bathroom door to investigate the noise, thinking that the burglar was hiding in the bathroom.

“As the accused reached the bathroom door, the bathroom door suddenly slid open and the accused, afraid for his life, panicked at being startled by the door suddenly opening and he fired a shot from his gun at the person who opened the door.

“After the accused had discharged the shot he realised that it was his wife that he had shot, thinking she was a burglar, it was said in Mdunge’s plea statement.

It added that Mdunge “immediately” rushed Thobile to Mediclinic Hospital.


http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

Sure some facts seem similar to what OP said (maybe coz he tailored his story to fit this story, who knows) but the beauty of OP case is the specific facts were different when we apply critical reasoning (eg OP and Reeva were sleeping and then OP changed it to say Reeva wasn't sleeping because of the evidence). Did this guy ever mention about his wife and not checking on her? OP changed his story on that. What about the lights, we don't know anything about that. It was a hot night. Another one is about the screams in woman's voice and how OP suppoosedly screams towards intruder. Another is the sound of the window sliding or slamming etc. Another one is him being on stumps vs legs when he is supposedly fearful. Another one is how supposed the door sound vs rack sound for him to shoot four bullets. Another is how and timing of the bullets were shot. To me, all these little facts changes everything about our case vs this case. The OP supporters ignore these little things and just remember his 'core' story which is silly and stupid.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Here’s yet another little gem, this time from Stander’s wife when she arrived at OP’s home that morning, “They were all outside talking and Mrs Stander made a comment that she hoped this didn’t get out to the papers”. A young woman has been brutally shot to death in a particularly horrific way, her hip shattered, her arm virtually amputated and shot in the head with brain matter spilling out and Mrs Stander’s worried about it getting into the papers!!!

As we know, the first person OP rang was Johan Stander. OP said, “Johan, please, please, please come to my house. I shot Reeva. I thought she was an intruder. Please, please come quickly.” When Stander arrived at the house he saw OP carrying Reeva down the stairs. The interesting thing about this is that OP hadn’t told him that he’d killed Reeva, only that he’d shot her, and Stander never even asked if she was still alive. All he knows is that OP was “broken, screaming, crying and praying”. He never comments on seeing Reeva, no mention at all IIRC.

It’s not just the family that have something seriously wrong with them but it’s their friends and associates too. All my thoughts would have been for Reeva. It wouldn’t even enter my head to think about it getting into the papers. They, like the Pistorius family, all reside on another planet, and I hope that planet gets sucked into a big black hole.

Great post, Judi.

This lends even more credence that OP’s tragic story that Reeva “died in his arms” at the bottom of the stairs is pure, unadulterated bullsh#t. She was dead before he pulled her out of the toilet.

On his own testimony, it was FIVE MINUTES from the time he shot till the time he bashed down the door (what was he doing?! - legs take 27 seconds to put on). Even longer till he finally called Netcare. DEAD - exactly as OP intended. Add in Saayman’s testimony that Reeva only took a few breaths after being shot in the head and there you have it.

And then OP has the brazen balls to tearfully, dramatically plead with the “overwhelmed” Dr. Stipp to help “him”.

His theatrical histrionics and poor-me, little-boy voice aside, Oscar Pistorius is actually more frightening and dangerous than we know.

 

[foxbluff]

Yes you are right: I should have said "milliliters" instead of "milligrams". In the HOA, "millimeters" occurs 3 times. I think that is a pretty bad mistake.

You and I think differently about Nel. I thought he was unimpressive. I wrote so here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ead-45-14-07-3-Day-36&p=10699898#post10699898

Respectfully snipped from your referenced post: .... Where are the SA versions of F. Lee Bailey and Vincent Bugliosi?

Imho, given where OP's case now stands, I believe Barry Roux fits the bill.

 

[Scand]

Do you think he did a google search for possible defences after he shot her. Would explain the delay between the shots and calling for help...?

That incident happened in 2011 so it is possible that OP knew about this case beforehand.

There was also a sports star (rugby player I think) who didn't get prison when he shot his daughter by mistake. He thought someone was taking her car when she snuck out at night.


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[ApplesInMyBra]

How often do break-ins happen to rich peoples houses with full-on security systems like gates, guards etc in SA?

They actually happens quite a lot, especially when the security guards are bribed by the robbers. I suspect that in this case, Pieter Baba, the security guard could have been bribed by OP or Uncle Arnold to testify that he heard nothing when he drove by at 2:20.

 

[wb180]

They actually happens quite a lot, especially when the security guards are bribed by the robbers. I suspect that in this case, Pieter Baba, the security guard could have been bribed by OP or Uncle Arnold to testify that he heard nothing when he drove by at 2:20.

Well not enough for OP to be ok with his bedroom doors wide open while he was sleeping. Oh and btw, his gun was just left right next to the open doors while he was sleeping. Oh and he left his expensive cars outside even though he had a garage. So I guess he must be really fearful because he said he was.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

For those that haven't seen the BBC3 documentary

I started crying in the first few minutes where Barry Steenkamp chokes up.
Thank you for sharing the link.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Well not enough for OP to be ok with his bedroom doors wide open while he was sleeping. Oh and btw, his gun was just left right next to the open doors while he was sleeping. Oh and he left his expensive cars outside even though he had a garage. So I guess he must be really fearful because he said he was.

I agree, his story doesn't make any sense at all!

 

[Cloen]

I have found this which in fact includes handing guns in. I have decided the press aren't too accurate in their reporting but then I should have know that shouldn't I!

"Chief Magistrate Desmond Nair had set bail at 1 million rand (£73,000). The 26-year-old track star was also ordered to hand over his passports, turn in any guns he owns and keep away from his upscale home in a gated community in Pretoria, which is now a crime scene.

He cannot leave the district of Pretoria without his probation officer's permission and is not allowed to consume drugs or alcohol, the magistrate said."

Oscar-Pistorius-reports-to-authorities-under-bail-conditions.html

BUT I recall he also had to report to the police. It seems he did not go to the police station but met them (probably at Uncle A's at a guess). This family run rings around SA Law.

I will see if I can find with the actual bail hearing papers.

Drinking of alcohol was revoked because Roux asked for this restriction to be lifted, and it was apparently granted.

 

[Cloen]

I started crying in the first few minutes where Barry Steenkamp chokes up.
Thank you for sharing the link.

Yes, it was very sad to see, and he also said he wanted to speak to Oscar didn't he. He's lost his little girl at the hands of this reckless immature pathetic man/boy,so can't imagine how he must be feeling, just so very tragic for the parents and family. This is what makes me seeth when I see Uncle Arnold and the rest of the family proclaim Oscar's innocence in their tweets and media conferences, reinforcing what they call 'terrible mistake' , and an 'accident' as is on Oscar's blog. They sat through that Trial and they heard Oscar's contradictions and inability to answer questions put to him by Nel, they know that Oscar withheld the truth, if they really know him. That....or Oscar really is just a very good liar, but also the family know he changed his Affidavit and Plea explanation and his Defence Claims during the Trial - not the behaviour of someone telling the truth from the outset was it.

I think none of Oscar's family know the truth , except Oscar's brother . I do think however, the sister MUST have asked him some questions too, but not sure she knows the whole truth, as I think it would be a burden for her to carry so I don't think Oscar will have told her - but either way,Oscar's family know he was lying, can't see how they couldn't know. They will stand by him as his reputation and future also reflects on them. The reason I think the brother knows the truth and Oscar confided in him and only him was because of his behaviour in Court when Oscar was being cross examined, it was his body language, often sitting bolt upright and edging forward in his seat mumbling away as if trying to remind Oscar to stick to his rehearsed 'version' when he was being asked some tricky questions and got tongue-tied and didn't answer Nel directly.

 

[Feynman]

Yes, we've discussed this case innumerable times during OP's trial.

Two points I would like to make, J Masipa's opinion that OP cried 'intruder' from the get-go, now couldn't this much publicized case given OP his story? Very highly likely, you have brought it up yourself, OP just did the same.

My second point, Mdunge shot his wife ONCE as she opened the door, he IMMEDIATELY drove her to the hospital as she was still ALIVE but unfortunately, died from her injury.

JMO

I don't see how you can say "very highly likely", but it's definitely a possibility. Your second point is of course correct and OP's four shots with that close grouping are, along with everything else we know (e.g. "I couldn't fire a warning shot because it might ricochet"), damning.

Note that I was responding only to Pirate Doug's argument in that post.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Well what a lucky boy OP is. A ready made alibi. Saved him wracking his troubled brain at all. Wrecklessly kill somebody and use someone's excuse. It must have taken seconds to recall that incident. Now any man in SA has a charter to murder his partner and get off Scott free. I wonder who the judge and assessors were.

“... Mdunge was given a wholly suspended sentence of eight years' imprisonment on condition that he is not again convicted of murder or assault during the five-year period of suspension. ...”
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

Does anyone honestly believe that superstar Oscar Pistorius will serve even one day of prison time when a ‘nobody’ received a slap on the hand for essentially the same crime?

I suspect Masipa will hand down the harshest sentence possible purely for show (15 years), then suspend it with “strict conditions” (like bail, will OP appeal those unfair sentencing conditions?!).

Now go outside and play and don’t murder any more unarmed, defenseless, terrified women, you naughty boy!

Seriously, any society that values Sports, Money and “Heroes” more than innocent human life is DEPRAVED.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Yes, it was very sad to see, and he also said he wanted to speak to Oscar didn't he. He's lost his little girl at the hands of this reckless immature pathetic man/boy,so can't imagine how he must be feeling, just so very tragic for the parents and family. This is what makes me seeth when I see Uncle Arnold and the rest of the family proclaim Oscar's innocence in their tweets and media conferences, reinforcing what they call 'terrible mistake' , and an 'accident' as is on Oscar's blog. They sat through that Trial and they heard Oscar's contradictions and inability to answer questions put to him by Nel, they know that Oscar withheld the truth, if they really know him. That....or Oscar really is just a very good liar, but also the family know he changed his Affidavit and Plea explanation and his Defence Claims during the Trial - not the behaviour of someone telling the truth from the outset was it.

I think none of Oscar's family know the truth , except Oscar's brother . I do think however, the sister MUST have asked him some questions too, but not sure she knows the whole truth, as I think it would be a burden for her to carry so I don't think Oscar will have told her - but either way,Oscar's family know he was lying, can't see how they couldn't know. They will stand by him as his reputation and future also reflects on them. The reason I think the brother knows the truth and Oscar confided in him and only him was because of his behaviour in Court when Oscar was being cross examined, it was his body language, often sitting bolt upright and edging forward in his seat mumbling away as if trying to remind Oscar to stick to his rehearsed 'version' when he was being asked some tricky questions and got tongue-tied and didn't answer Nel directly.

I just finished watching the whole documentary and it is truly heart wrenching, my heart goes out to the Steenkamps.

I fully agree with you that Oscar's brother knows what happens. At the end of the final verdict, his brother turned around in his wheelchair and winked at Oscar!!

 

[foxbluff]

I guess if you do happenstance to visit the toilet in the night in SA it's okay for someone to mistakenly kill you? Not sure (without husbands background)what to think of this case.
But still?!!!
I'm thinking Scott Peterson wishes he'd thought of this method of operandi.


JMO

BBM... sorry to disagree with you, Indie, but I don't believe Scott Peterson would have been helped by that method as he was tried in the States where you can be convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence alone.

Under SA law, however, (if I'm understanding it correctly) a judge cannot base a verdict on circumstantial evidence alone unless no inference except guilt can reasonably be drawn from it.

Had this crime been committed in and tried in the States, by Nel, I firmly believe he would have gotten a conviction of murder.

 

[KarenUK]

I started crying in the first few minutes where Barry Steenkamp chokes up.
Thank you for sharing the link.

Me too. I had to switch it off at that point, he is a broken man. I bawled my eyes out.

 

[Feynman]

Yes...of course always is too drastic...lets just say more often than not Gerrie Nel called her by name Reeva...most watching the trial would remember him saying that more often than anything else. Thanks F for explaining your reasoning...it gives us a clear understanding of how you look at things and what is important to you...it now makes much more sense that you can in any way defend the verdict...I

Please remind me, where did I defend the verdict?