Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[vanatos]

For me it hinges on the correct timeline as well as the bat marks and common sense. A lot of common sense.

I don't think so.

Firstly, the experts did not state that the bat definitely happened after the gunshots, merely it could OR a piece of the wood was struck with the bat after the gunshots.
They also disagreed with Pistorius' version of getting prosthetics then bat.

So either the experts are right, and the bat after gunshots hinges only on them, which means Pistorius' version is incorrect (because his version he put prosthetics on).

Or the experts are wrong, and the whole timeline discussion is out the window based on forensics, the only pieces of evidence external
to forensics is the witnesses hearing Reeva scream.

Even if we accept timeline or not, that still cannot prove Pistorius' innocence, the timeline could very well correct, and you can still
safely believe Pistorius went out to kill Reeva, and the timeline would not disprove that at all.

Yep. Correct. That's after the first bangs by the timeline and the loud crying was at the same time as the screaming so how can that tally?

Thats not quite right.

They stated sometime after 3am, they heard 4 loud bangs, then they went back to bed, shortly after they heard Oscar crying.

This doesn't really contradict the state timeline at all, its totally in line with it.

But yes, if it had been my daughter that they were hearing screaming for her life for 12 minutes

No one stated that, at best there was intermittent arguing and loud voices followed by screaming.

 

[akp]

Point 1: Masipa gave her reasons for "ignoring" what VDM heard. It was one voice, no known direction, no language, and no words, what inference would you expect her to find beyond reasonable doubt? It could have been Reeva arguing on the phone with an ex or a friend and for those looking for a reason for the shots this could have been the cause. Or maybe it was Reeva practising her impassioned speech (apart from a telephone conversation the only other one voiced argument I can think of are speeches) that she was to give the next day, or it could have been from another house, a loud TV retransmitting a speech by Hillary Clinton. Who knows. Certainly there was more than reasonable doubt for her not to be able to find an argument Reeva-OP.

Point 2: And your point was...?

Point 3: Yep. Correct. That's after the first bangs by the timeline and the loud crying was at the same time as the screaming so how can that tally?

Unnumbered point: No it is not imo more damning since from once voice, no language, no words and from an unknown direction there is no argument only Reeva ranting away at OP for an hour in the early hours of the morning.

Last post as night duty is at an end I need some sleep. Night night.

Let me give it another try.
EVDM knew sounds were coming from some house, but she wasn't sure which house when she heard all the commotion. So it is possible to raise the point that what EVDM heard might have originated elsewhere. But once the judge accepted that EVDM's husband identified the loud cry as OP's, she also implicitly accepted that her husband identified the source of all the noise that EVDM heard as OP's house. The judge, or to be more correct the judge and the assessors, chose to conveniently overlook this completely. And this is not simply overlooking something, points 2 and 3 simply can not sit together, because the arguments given in the verdict for reaching 2 and 3 contradict each other.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

G.bng #1160

CV: Ok. I'm sorry, my lady. I appologise. So I heard somebody shouting help 3 times. I then, first of all froze in my bed and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, something is wrong and the bark... the dogs were even like barking bit more. Errr. I then decided I need, I need to get up. I closed my sliding door because it sounded like something was wrong somewhere and I was scared somebody is going to climb maybe up my... onto my balcony and come into my bedroom. So I got, I roll out of my bed and I got up and I stood by my sliding door. First of all I dropped my blinds that were still tilted open and I then stood by the door and I le... and I opened it a little bit and I kept my ear there if I cou... to try and hear if I can't hear where, where did this sound come from, because I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from because it was clear somebody needed help. I then... I couldn't hear anything. I closed my sliding door. I latched it. I then closed my blind and then I got back into my bed. I remember my heart was pounding so fast. I was very afraid. And, emm, my dogs were still very restless so I, I was first then sitting on my bed and trying to think, oh my gosh I don't know where this is coming from, and I don't know what to do. And then I was... tried to get my dogs closer to me again 'cos they kept on barking and they were really not... they didn't want to calm down. And then slowly but surely settled back into bed and pulled the covers over myself. And [01:36:19.06][01:36:19.10][01:36:19.12] my heart was going so fast and I kept on thinking, how am I going to fall asleep now after I heard that.. or I don't... I was so scared. And slowly but surely my heart settled again and I was laying down and I pulled the covers over me and then the dog was barking again and I had to go fetch her at the end of the bed and I was holding her just to try and quiet her down. And then I settled back into bed and I pulled the covers over myself and I was just lying there thinking, oh my gosh, I don't know what happened and I don't know how to help whoever's in trouble. And...

What about the dogs, especially OP's dogs? The neighbour dogs were barking and restless, why not the OP's dogs even more??? Had "sleeping" Frankie the dogs brought into his room when the argueing between OP and Reeva started? Was that a tested strategy when ever a dispute escalated in "master's" home?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I'm reading through Judge Masipa's judgement again, I'm a glutton for punishment..... so this really irks me...

1. At the time of the incident there was no one else in the accused’s
house except the accused and the deceased. Therefore it could only
have been one of them who screamed or cried out loud.

Frank Chiziweni was sleeping on the premises, I can't understand why J Masipa discounts him. Does not compute. No matter he claims to have heard and seen nothing, he has to be accounted for otherwise it's an misrepresentation of the facts of that night, so what else is missing? It looks to be a sham, smoke and mirrors. :banghead: JMO

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/140915OPJudgment.pdf

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Let me give it another try.
EVDM knew sounds were coming from some house, but she wasn't sure which house when she heard all the commotion. So it is possible to raise the point that what EVDM heard might have originated elsewhere. But once the judge accepted that EVDM's husband identified the loud cry as OP's, she also implicitly accepted that her husband identified the source of all the noise that EVDM heard as OP's house. The judge, or to be more correct the judge and the assessors, chose to conveniently overlook this completely. And this is not simply overlooking something, points 2 and 3 simply can not sit together, because the arguments given in the verdict for reaching 2 and 3 contradict each other.

G.bng #1160

CV: Ok. I'm sorry, my lady. I appologise. So I heard somebody shouting help 3 times. I then, first of all froze in my bed and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, something is wrong and the bark... the dogs were even like barking bit more. Errr. I then decided I need, I need to get up. I closed my sliding door because it sounded like something was wrong somewhere and I was scared somebody is going to climb maybe up my... onto my balcony and come into my bedroom. So I got, I roll out of my bed and I got up and I stood by my sliding door. First of all I dropped my blinds that were still tilted open and I then stood by the door and I le... and I opened it a little bit and I kept my ear there if I cou... to try and hear if I can't hear where, where did this sound come from, because I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from because it was clear somebody needed help. I then... I couldn't hear anything. I closed my sliding door. I latched it. I then closed my blind and then I got back into my bed. I remember my heart was pounding so fast. I was very afraid. And, emm, my dogs were still very restless so I, I was first then sitting on my bed and trying to think, oh my gosh I don't know where this is coming from, and I don't know what to do. And then I was... tried to get my dogs closer to me again 'cos they kept on barking and they were really not... they didn't want to calm down. And then slowly but surely settled back into bed and pulled the covers over myself. And [01:36:19.06][01:36:19.10][01:36:19.12] my heart was going so fast and I kept on thinking, how am I going to fall asleep now after I heard that.. or I don't... I was so scared. And slowly but surely my heart settled again and I was laying down and I pulled the covers over me and then the dog was barking again and I had to go fetch her at the end of the bed and I was holding her just to try and quiet her down. And then I settled back into bed and I pulled the covers over myself and I was just lying there thinking, oh my gosh, I don't know what happened and I don't know how to help whoever's in trouble. And...

What about the dogs, especially OP's dogs? The neighbour dogs were barking and restless, why not the OP's dogs even more??? Had "sleeping" Frankie the dogs brought into his room when the argueing between OP and Reeva started? Was that a tested strategy when ever a dispute escalated in "master's" home?

All this common sense and logic just does my head in. lol My blood pressure is rising again.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I'm looking through my bookmarks and this is the only article I can find so far. I'll see if I have one or two more.



("Frans" Stander is obviously Johan.)
http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/neighbours-rally-in-support-of-blade-runner-1.459034

I believe OP settled with CTM in December 2013. He certainly didn't want a lawsuit for assault on a female hanging over his head during his murder trial for killing Reeva - no doubt it would have come up...NOT GOOD.

BIB No, as I understand it, they are different people. Frans Stander was Estate Manager until Oct/Nov 2009 when he was replaced by Eugene St Leger Denny, who is still in this position and was on 13/14 Feb 2013 (I think Stipp refers to him). Johan Stander was on the Estate Management Committee until Jan 2013.

http://www.lombardyhoa.co.za/Imaging/Newsletters/November 2009 Lombardy Newsletter.pdf (see page 7)

http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=95895

 

[vanatos]

I tend to side with Judge greenland on his take on various parts of the trial, and i'm kind of dissapointed at the lack of common-sense applied to it:

1. Oscar's version is that he went around the bed, and under it to get the gun, and we are to believe he could not nor did he try and see if Reeva was on the bed, he would literally be less then one body length away.
This is so stupid it makes my head hurt.

2. As judge greenland said, all the stuff the defense raised, is utterly meaningless, they first need to show it was reasonable for Pistorius to not only think a bump in the night is an intruder, but after knowing that the person was behind the door, somehow believe his life was in danger to the extent that the only action is to shoot to kill.
This is flat out impossible, even worse is Pistorius passed a gun test so knows what he should and should not do

3. Focus on timeline, this is utterly stupid imho, its 3am, i don't expect any human, when their asleep or drifting to sleep, would remember, accurately, minute detail like the times of shots, i do expect them to remember, vividly, reeva's bloodcurdling screams, this is normal common-sense, the greater stupidity is that this focus on the accuracy of the witnesses, is a double-standard since apparently Pistorius' multiple versions, contradicting himself and phpto evidence, is somehow given a blank pass.

 

[Marfa Lights]

I was just thinking about you, Mr. Fossil, and your excellent timelines posted earlier. Since this is still keeping me awake at nights and distracting from my work, I fear I will have to undertake a timeline analysis for myself or forever spin in circles. I will start with your framework and go back and listen to all the testimonies on YouTube and graph it out much as you did and also try to diagram it on the aerial view of the estate. I think the time and distance of sound traveling could have been more of a factor than is currently understood (Lin's "expert" testimony was not very helpful IMHO.)

In doing a little preliminary research, I did just now find this interesting blog that Websleuthers might enjoy:

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2014/03/pistorius-trial-witness-timelines-4.html

I wish you all a restful night!

 

[Marfa Lights]

I'm reading through Judge Masipa's judgement again, I'm a glutton for punishment..... so this really irks me...

1. At the time of the incident there was no one else in the accused’s
house except the accused and the deceased. Therefore it could only
have been one of them who screamed or cried out loud.

Frank Chiziweni was sleeping on the premises, I can't understand why J Masipa discounts him. Does not compute. No matter he claims to have heard and seen nothing, he has to be accounted for otherwise it's an misrepresentation of the facts of that night, so what else is missing? It looks to be a sham, smoke and mirrors. :banghead: JMO

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/140915OPJudgment.pdf

Interestingly, Frank was listed as #10 on the State's witness list-- it was said he did not have legal residency and I wonder if this could have prevented him from testifying, or maybe he just hopped on a private plane to Mozambique before the trial started.

http://ewn.co.za/-/media/Files/WitnessList pdf

 

[Mr Fossil]

I was just thinking about you, Mr. Fossil, and your excellent timelines posted earlier. Since this is still keeping me awake at nights and distracting from my work, I fear I will have to undertake a timeline analysis for myself or forever spin in circles. I will start with your framework and go back and listen to all the testimonies on YouTube and graph it out much as you did and also try to diagram it on the aerial view of the estate. I think the time and distance of sound traveling could have been more of a factor than is currently understood (Lin's "expert" testimony was not very helpful IMHO.)

In doing a little preliminary research, I did just now find this interesting blog that Websleuthers might enjoy:

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2014/03/pistorius-trial-witness-timelines-4.html

I wish you all a restful night!

I have done a bit of work on the 01:48-03:17 timeframe myself. It's in the form of an excel worksheet and too big to post as a picture (the text would be too small to read), so I need to figure this. It covers the 10 witnesses who heard something plus OP's version.

I also have updated versions of my phone usage charts, which I'll post later.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Interestingly, Frank was listed as #10 on the State's witness list-- it was said he did not have legal residency and I wonder if this could have prevented him from testifying, or maybe he just hopped on a private plane to Mozambique before the trial started.

http://ewn.co.za/-/media/Files/WitnessList pdf

OMG! :facepalm:

 

[Marfa Lights]

What about the possibility that it could have been Frank yelling "Help, help, help!" between the two sets of bat strikes/gunshots?

 

[jimmy73]

I was just thinking about you, Mr. Fossil, and your excellent timelines posted earlier. Since this is still keeping me awake at nights and distracting from my work, I fear I will have to undertake a timeline analysis for myself or forever spin in circles. I will start with your framework and go back and listen to all the testimonies on YouTube and graph it out much as you did and also try to diagram it on the aerial view of the estate. I think the time and distance of sound traveling could have been more of a factor than is currently understood (Lin's "expert" testimony was not very helpful IMHO.)

In doing a little preliminary research, I did just now find this interesting blog that Websleuthers might enjoy:

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2014/03/pistorius-trial-witness-timelines-4.html

I wish you all a restful night!

This is exactly what making my brain whir at night. Thanks for the link. It sounds like we are both looking at the same timeline approach. I'm building an aerial sequence and attempting to show the different houses and accused/deceased/witness positions at various events/estimated times. Good luck with yours

 

[jimmy73]

I have done a bit of work on the 01:48-03:17 timeframe myself. It's in the form of an excel worksheet and too big to post as a picture (the text would be too small to read), so I need to figure this. It covers the 10 witnesses who heard something plus OP's version.

I also have updated versions of my phone usage charts, which I'll post later.

How about sharing a read-only Google doc spreadsheet (you can create a new account on gmail to keep your anonymity)?

You could also enable comments for invitees from WS.

 

[Mr Fossil]

How about sharing a read-only Google doc spreadsheet (you can create a new account on gmail to keep your anonymity)?

You could also enable comments for invitees from WS.

Thanks, looking into it now ...

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

CS didn't hear anything more than a man calling "help, help, help" from an unknown direction, and even though it could I suppose be said she "hopped" back into bed, I don't think it was without some consternation, at least not according to her testimony:

And a bit later:

“CV: My lady, like I mentioned before, I tried to settle the dogs down, still on my bed, trying to get my own heart beat to slow down, and settle back in... under the covers with my dogs. I was lying in my bed thinking, oh my gosh, how am I going to sleep now because that, the voice I heard I know for... it sounded to me it's a man's voice. I could hear a man shouting meaning that there must be terrible trouble because where is the lady?”

"... the voice I heard I know for ..."

The only thing she could have been going to say here was "I know for a fact" and this is because she heard a man's voice and could compare it to a woman’s voice that she’d also heard.

Why would you hear a man shouting for help and then wonder "Where is the lady?" What lady? Why would she even assume there was a lady? You wouldn't, not unless you knew for a fact that you'd already heard a man's voice and a woman's voice as well. There's something very, very wrong here IMO.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

What about the possibility that it could have been Frank yelling "Help, help, help!" between the two sets of bat strikes/gunshots?

That's right Marfa, how will we ever know? Reeva and Frank were completely silent during the whole schbang?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Point 1: Masipa gave her reasons for "ignoring" what VDM heard. It was one voice, no known direction, no language, and no words, what inference would you expect her to find beyond reasonable doubt? It could have been Reeva arguing on the phone with an ex or a friend and for those looking for a reason for the shots this could have been the cause. Or maybe it was Reeva practising her impassioned speech (apart from a telephone conversation the only other one voiced argument I can think of are speeches) that she was to give the next day, or it could have been from another house, a loud TV retransmitting a speech by Hillary Clinton. Who knows. Certainly there was more than reasonable doubt for her not to be able to find an argument Reeva-OP.

Point 2: And your point was...?

Point 3: Yep. Correct. That's after the first bangs by the timeline and the loud crying was at the same time as the screaming so how can that tally?

Unnumbered point: No it is not imo more damning since from once voice, no language, no words and from an unknown direction there is no argument only Reeva ranting away at OP for an hour in the early hours of the morning.

Last post as night duty is at an end I need some sleep. Night night.

But why does J Masipa say -

- on 14 February 2013 shortly after 3 in the morning, screams were
heard from the accused’s house;


which JM says had to be OP, and yet

In any event, one can safely use the phone records which were
made between 03:15:51 and 03:17 as a base to arrive at the
approximate times when the shots were fired, when the screams were
heard as well as when the sounds of the cricket bat was striking against the door were heard.


Why was OP screaming shortly after 3 am, so what did he do for the approximate 15 minutes when he shot the bullets at the door?

This just doesn't add up, OP is screaming all over the place for ages, and there was no reason for him to do so. It's just too implausible to be true. During those 15 or so minutes, Reeva was in the toilet while OP is screaming all that time as he crept up the corridor?

:deadhorse:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

That is precisely why I was so happy when the graphic analysis I did of the timeline (based simply on call data and witness testimony) before the HOAs were out proved it could not have been Reeva screaming and therefore could only have been OP.

Because I can't think of anything worse than living the rest of my life believing the State's version, i.e. that for some FIFTEEN minutes (from 3:02 aprox per the State's HOAs based on Stipp's 2-3 min fast clock up until AFTER 3:17, per the State's HOAs based on Johnson's 3:16+58 second call) my daughter, according to the State's version, would have been screaming, terrified and petrified and in fear of her life and out of her mind. And if Reeva's parents don't come to realise that the Stipps timings must be wrong and the timeline proves they are, then her parents will have to live and die believing the State's version, i.e. that despite hearing shots and a woman's terrified and petrified screams, the Stipps took some 12 minutes before calling for help when had they called security within ONE, or at the very most TWO minutes of first hearing the screams Reeva could well be alive today. I mean, compare the Stipp's actions with those of Johnson and Burger who called security within 4-5 mins of hearing a woman screaming and they hadn't even heard shots. Or even worse, compare the Stipps with Mr Nhlengethwa who called security within FIFTEEN to TWENTY SECONDS of only hearing a man crying, no shots, just a man crying. That is a good neighbour not the Stipps. I personally would never forgive the Stipps even though Dr Stipp later went to see if he could help but by then, after waiting TWELVE minutes listening to my daughter screaming for her life before calling for help I would have to say that was just too little too late. jmho.

But JMasipa says it's common cause fact that there was screaming shortly after 3 am and the shooting between 3:15 and 3:17 with more screaming and helpx3.

 

[jimmy73]

"... the voice I heard I know for ..."

The only thing she could have been going to say here was "I know for a fact" and this is because she heard a man's voice and could compare it to a woman&#8217;s voice that she&#8217;d also heard.

Why would you hear a man shouting for help and then wonder "Where is the lady?" What lady? Why would she even assume there was a lady? You wouldn't, not unless you knew for a fact that you'd already heard a man's voice and a woman's voice as well. There's something very, very wrong here IMO.

It sounded ridiculous and dishonest.