Duct Tape and Premeditation #500

[noonie]

Perhaps OT but I see value...
Does anyone else feel that during Mr. Ashtons discussion regarding the duct tape over Caylee's mouth, and his suggestion that chemical or physical restraint would have been likely, that Kc's "simultaneous" wrist grabbing is perhaps rather telling? She shook her head vehemently while listening to the discussion of chemical restraint, and then grabbed her wrists in a curious fashion. I didn't see any other times where her body language was as overt as it was during Mr. Ashton's argument. I wonder if it is possible that Caylee's wrists were restrained by that additional piece of tape found near the body and if KC's body language indictates as much. OBVIOUSLY, her actions could not be entered as evidence, but I wonder if that possibility may be explored further and if it may give create a new focus on the additional duct tape.

You must have read my mind!!! That was my thought exactly!!!!

 

[noonie]

I think Jeff Ashtons's speech threw them for a loop! Don't think they were quite expecting that one. KC almost lost her mind!! Whew!

 

[chckmate22]

IMO It will be so hard to say if she was sedated or did she fight for her lil life...she was so badly decomposed that there is no way of seeing if she had tried to get the tape of, if she pulled on it at all...that poor child my god rest her soul and I hope she is in a wonderful place full of love, kindness and lots of fun

ps had antoher thought so I needed to add this...most of us here are moms, dads, aunts, uncles etc. Let me ask you this question...have you ever been at the hospital with a child- even at age 2 they rip out their IV's , they fight do the death for stitches, they wont sit still for the painless test of an xray...no child would not fight for tape being applied to their mouth and noses if they had been awake....IMO

looking for a video and will post when i find it....

 

[Searchfortruth]

I think Jeff Ashtons's speech threw them for a loop! Don't think they were quite expecting that one. KC almost lost her mind!! Whew!

Wasn't it great ? I think we have been waiting for SO long to see someone stand up for Caylee, that today was the largest show of justice we have experienced, since the beginning of this thing. I think it did a lot of people some good, it sure made me feel better !

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

 

[azwriter]

I just don't think a 2 yeard old could rip off duct tape from their own mouth, while it is attached to their hair. Have you ever had to pull a band aid off a boo-boo on a child? O..M.G. - I always had to use the snatch- and- pull- by- surprise method. Band aids hurt like heck, much less duct tape. Ouch! Not to say that Caylee could not have done it, but I think it would have been difficult.

I think a 2 and a half year old, if not restrained, would attemp to remove the tape. Even if it was just shaking their head back and forth or kicking or clawing at their face. Just think of how they react when we even try to wipe their nose with a tissue or run a wash cloth across their face. jmo

 

[azwriter]

If the tape was wrapped around her leg I doubt a child her age could have removed it and she never could have removed it from her hair, however, anything blocking her airway she would have fought with superhuman strength to remove. If she was conscious to do so. The ME will attest to that as will every other medical expert they call. Even lightly drugged, her instincts would be to breathe.
She may not have succeeded in removing it, but she would have tried.

I can't wait for the expert testimony. AL was completely off base today suggesting abuse couldn't have occurred because it wasn't evident on the skeletal remains. Fractures weren't evident, nothing more.

kaRn, I agree. And just maybe those fingerprints we hope are on the tape's sticky side are tiny, little girl fingerprints. How sad is that?

 

[Bittiness39]

Wasn't it great ? I think we have been waiting for SO long to see someone stand up for Caylee, that today was the largest show of justice we have experienced, since the beginning of this thing. I think it did a lot of people some good, it sure made me feel better !

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Me as well. On all points. My guess would be the SA's office would at the very least confirm their theory. I don't know if it was a smart defense strategy or not. Not a clue...opening the door like that so that the prosecution could walk right in...it could have been intentional to see what the prosecution's theory was by arguing against the DP. But I would maintain the defense is in a complete compost heap if they think they can convince a jury that a dead Caylee was not in the trunk of KC's car. Good luck with that one.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I would imagine TL is haunted by asking himself, "What if?" That's quite a burden for a young man to carry.

That's what makes me question mallory's sanity for staying around the anthonys.

 

[Kimster]

Let's all stay on topic...duct tape and premeditation. Thanks!

 

[Eidetic]

My adorable two year old niece adores stickers.
She puts them on her hands/feet/shoes/floor/walls you name it... we've put them on her round, rosy cheeks. I have witnessed her *try* to take the stickers off her head she comes close but misses their location.
Almost... but like my dad says, almost doesn't count, except for horse shoes and hand grenades.

I have also seen her try to get the ones off her hands and even while looking at them, it has proved to be a task for her to remove them.

Add panic, and two more layers of industrial strength tape to that equation and I am certain she would not be able to remove that tape herself.

I will admit, a thought had entered my mind about applying a piece of tape (never near her air way of course) for the heck of it and making a game of it to see how well she'd be able to grasp it and time the experiment, but thinking of going that far too long upsets my stomach.
Just remembering Caylee coupled with the idea of super sticky tape injuring her soft, sensitive olive skin, no way.

It is within the realm of possibility that Caylee was still sleeping while the murderer stared at her, adrenaline pumping for that big moment when first piece of tape was applied.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Me as well. On all points. My guess would be the SA's office would at the very least confirm their theory. I don't know if it was a smart defense strategy or not. Not a clue...opening the door like that so that the prosecution could walk right in...it could have been intentional to see what the prosecution's theory was by arguing against the DP. But I would maintain the defense is in a complete compost heap if they think they can convince a jury that a dead Caylee was not in the trunk of KC's car. Good luck with that one.

Yeah I think Jose and AL especially got a big dose of karma today. AL's little theories and strategies were nothing against ashton's passionate and justifiable statements. It was glorious to see real passion vs that hackneyed cynical and purely strategic rhetoric of AL's that went on for 10 minutes or more. It's NOT a game it's about justice for Caylee and people have seriously had enough of the nonsense!

 

[okiedokietoo]

Yes! I posted earlier today about her grabbing her wrist for no apparent reason when Ashton talked about physical or chemical restraint, and then shaking her head no when he talked about chemical restraint.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I find it very interesting. I can't help but think that KC was subconsciously unable to resist responding to Ashton's story of what happened to Caylee with what seemed to be clues to what actually happened.

MOO

I totally agree.
Did it mean that everything else he said was right on but the part about "physical" and/or "chemical" restraint was wrong? So was she upset that she would be accused of that? (being accused of murdering her daughter doesn't bother her or wouldn't she be crying all the time when there is a hearing?) Or the theory about the duct tape was wrong and the "physical and chemical restraint" part was right on?
After typing this I think she didn't restrain Caylee. What that means I don't know but when "restraint" was mentioned she acted insulted. None of that makes sense unless you are a Sociopath.

 

[Tulessa]

Let's all stay on topic...duct tape and premeditation. Thanks!

Val is sure on top of things........

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=999

 

[txsvicki]

I noticed in the articles I read that the order of the taping and sedation seemed odd. The order was arms restrained, sedation, then one two three layers of tape to the face. If the arms were restrained first, then the sedation would almost have to be chloroform to work quickly in order to get the face taped. Horrifying to even thing about, but if done in this order it would definitely be premeditated.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I believe the application of multiple pieces of duct tape, whether sedated first or not, would qualify as premeditated murder.

 

[mitzi]

I just don't think a 2 yeard old could rip off duct tape from their own mouth, while it is attached to their hair. Have you ever had to pull a band aid off a boo-boo on a child? O..M.G. - I always had to use the snatch- and- pull- by- surprise method. Band aids hurt like heck, much less duct tape. Ouch! Not to say that Caylee could not have done it, but I think it would have been difficult.

I agree with you that Caylee probably couldn't have ripped the duct tape from her mouth, but I do think that, if she was not restrained, or drugged in some way, (unconscious), that she would have made some sort of effort to pull down the tape from over her nose, in order to breath. Especially with Caylee's tiny fingers, I think she could have yanked the tape down on either side of her nostrils, being that the nose sticks out from the face. That is unless KC in some heinous way was keeping Caylee's hands away from her face. JMO

 

[2goldfish]

I cant properly quote because the thread is closed from yesterday but in a reply to me, faefrost said:

This is actually a common misconception. Human beings do not automatically or instinctively know what to do when they cannot breathe. Their instinctual reaction is blind panic. Which quickly leads to unconsciousness and death. As weird as this sounds, an adult, with no experience or training in what to do when you yourself cannot breath, will actually have dificulty coming up with the simple solution of pulling the tape off.

SCUBA diving classes spend hundreds of hours teaching people what to do and how to physically react when they cannot breathe. How to train your body to take the methodical steps to resolve the situiation, because quite frankly the brain goes haywire. the Fire Service spends thousands of hours per man teaching this same and more intensified lessons. You know that horrible airforce pool training featured in "an Officer and a Gentleman"? Same thing. They are seeking to train out and break your instincts so you will respond in an effective manner when faced with not being able to breath. When they test people for navy sub service this more then anything else is typically the highest point of failure or washout.

There is no way a 2 year old would be able to respond in a coherrant and rational way to the situation before they passed out. They would simply trash and flail. Chances are they would not be able to take the specific steps to remove the tape.

I think this is important and I hope other posters know more about this (or s/he comes back and tell us more) because I am staggered at the idea - I know strangling is indicated by the marks people leave when trying to grasp what is strangling them...so what makes different ways of cutting off breathing different?


(I mean I guess the discussion goes nowhere really because I think 1 2 3 pieces of tape is enough premeditation without worrying over whether there was restraint to prove premeditation, but fascinating nonetheless)

 

[LambChop]

Perhaps OT but I see value...
Does anyone else feel that during Mr. Ashtons discussion regarding the duct tape over Caylee's mouth, and his suggestion that chemical or physical restraint would have been likely, that Kc's "simultaneous" wrist grabbing is perhaps rather telling? She shook her head vehemently while listening to the discussion of chemical restraint, and then grabbed her wrists in a curious fashion. I didn't see any other times where her body language was as overt as it was during Mr. Ashton's argument. I wonder if it is possible that Caylee's wrists were restrained by that additional piece of tape found near the body and if KC's body language indictates as much. OBVIOUSLY, her actions could not be entered as evidence, but I wonder if that possibility may be explored further and if it may give create a new focus on the additional duct tape.

Or, and this is not something we want to imagine, maybe Caylee grabbed her mother's wrist in the struggle? JMO

 

[Eidetic]

I believe the application of multiple pieces of duct tape, whether sedated first or not, would qualify as premeditated murder.

Absolutely.

First, though I will never understand the thought process, you have to formulate some sort of plan with intent.
Second, you have to get up and physically go get tape.
You have to walk back, tear piece by piece off, apply them to the face.

Finally, you have to wait for the desired result to take effect

It took several moments, as well as several steps to complete.

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: pre·med·i·tate
Pronunciation: pri-'me-d&-"tAt
Function: verb
Inflected Forms: -tat·ed; -tat·ing
transitive verb : to think about or consider beforehand premeditate the killing and deliberate about it —W. Railroad LaFave and A. W. Scott, Junior> intransitive verb : to think or consider beforehand Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Cite This Source

 

[Pattymarie]

I remember that in one document dump there was a list of items taken from the medicine cabinets in the Anthony home. I wonder if the SA is thinking along the lines that Caylee would have been given some sort of sedative/tranqualizer prior to the duct tape being applied.

Could drugs be found in skeletal remains so long after death?