Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[Doruk]

Self-edit.

 

[Rougelatete]

With all due respect I understand you specialize in the mental health field and completely understand your argument in regard to a person attempting to hide a body etc. However, can you please explain why you feel the video shows a psychotic break in progress?

I'm not a mental health expert, perhaps that is why I just don't see it.
I apologize if this comes across as rude in any way, not my intention at all. In a rush at the moment and typing on a tablet. Just wanted to get all my ideas out there, ask a few questions and give an alternative.

Snipped for space.

I don't think that was rude at all. To answer your questions:

1) I do not think it is possible (or professional) to attempt to diagnose someone based on a 2-minute video. What I said was that EL appeared to be suffering from paranoid psychosis. Perhaps it is one of those things that people in the mental health field come to recognize after witnessing similar behavior so many times over. From what I gather, all other verified mental health professionals on this thread immediately recognized the same thing. So, I do think it comes mostly from experience, having seen this behavior many times over.

2) To be more specific, if you watch the video I attached at the bottom of this response, one has to wonder why EL pushed so many elevator buttons at once to begin with. She appears to do so very deliberately, as if it was part of some plan or something she was instructed to do (i.e. by a command hallucination). When the elevator doors do not immediately close, she appears to get suspicious and lunges out of the doors, sweeping her head quickly from right to left, as if scared. These exaggerated movements of lunging and rapid pace are often seen in those experiencing a psychotic break of some kind. You are right, that a lot of people would probably peek out of the elevator doors if they did not close properly to see if someone was in the hallway. But, they wouldn't do it in that manner. They would walk up to the threshold and look either way in a less exaggerated fashion.

3) At 0:32, EL then backs up against the side of the elevator wall and further backs up into the corner (IMO, addressing Peter Brandt's quote above, she does not appear to be playful or smiling or happy or anything of the sort. She looks scared and paranoid). At this point, she again goes to the threshold of the elevator and looks around the hallway. One must ask themselves, what would I be doing at this point in the scenario? Most people would be perplexed at this point, trying to decide if they should press more buttons inside or outside the elevator, look for the stairs, press the call button, etc. They would be preoccupied with why the elevator was not working and what to do about it. On the contrary, EL appears preoccupied with something else entirely (I think this is what most of the mental health professionals are picking up on -- that preoccupation, and possible responding to what is called internal stimuli -- voices, hallucinations, etc).

4) At 0:53, EL makes a shuffle-hop move with her feet that I have seen time and again. I don't know how to describe it, but this is the population I work most frequently with and the jumpy, jerky, sudden movement of her feet at this point in the video is tell-tale to me. She also does a ritualized movement with her feet at this point (step apart, come together, step apart, come together) that I have also seen many times before.

5) At 1:15, you see EL outside the elevator, gesturing and waiving her hands and arms above her head. She appears distressed, placing her hands on her head twice, as if overwhelmed with what is going on inside her mind. I realize some people believe she is talking to someone else in the hallway but I don't see that at all. She comes back into the elevator (why wouldn't the other person follow her at this point and why wouldn't she continue talking to them from inside the elevator?)

6) She punches all of the elevator buttons again multiple, multiple times. Again, what would you be doing to get an elevator to work? You'd probably press one button, wait. Press it again. Maybe a few times. We never see EL do this. She goes straight for disorganized behavior.

7) At 2:00, we see her splayed fingers as she repeatedly gestures and appears to be talking to herself. Again, I don't know how to describe it, but I've seen this behavior multiple times in others. The hands are unsteady and exaggerated, as if she is touching/petting something that is not there -- not as if she is gesturing while talking to someone. Her hands go up to her head again, as if overwhelmed, and she walks off screen.

Unfortunately, the best I can say is that you become familiar with how a psychotic episode looks the more often you see one in action and I interact with clients who are suffering from paranoia and psychosis on a daily basis. I know that doesn't directly answer your questions but I hope it at least helps clarify a little.

ETA: Just to be clear, a psychotic episode does not necessarily mean that the person is running around like a maniac, screaming and gesticulating and being a generally scary, out of control menace (of course, it can present this way as well). Perhaps that is why it is less clear to people who have not seen someone experiencing paranoid psychosis, since the behaviors are not, I suppose, what we see in movies when we think of someone being psychotic. HTH.

I would also like to respond to Peter Brandt's quote above by saying that, respectfully, the only people who should be commenting on what constitutes a psychotic state and the symptomatology of that state are websleuths verified experts. I recognize that you say you have experience in other things but what you posted about the symptomatology of behavior in psychotic states is simply wrong. People are perfectly capable of exhibiting what appears to the outside world to be "organized, functional" behaviors during a psychotic state. It is incorrect to say that if EL was exhibiting "organized, functional" behaviors like hiding her clothes that she couldn't have been experiencing psychosis. She most certainly could have.

Elevator video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3TjVBpyTeZM#!

 

[Conductor71]

Psychotic knickers and misadventures aside, I would like to know why our mental health experts here feel that they do not have to take evidence into consideration. Truth is that the likelihood of EL having a psychotic episode are also very slim based on evidence. Please enlighten us as to how these things would be a part of psychosis:

Upon learning from Interpol and the RCSM, the LAPD made a Missing Persons announcement to the world. I looked up what areas Interpol takes an interest in and bi-polar psychotic episodes did not make the cut.

EL was last seen later in the night of Jan 31st by an employee in the lobby who said all looked normal. Late night to me means 10-midnight. The video is time stamped Feb 1 12:20 am. How is it EL looks normal and then 1-2 hours experiences an acute psychotic breakdown which is rather conveniently captured on camera?

Has the criteria for DSM IV criteria for diagnosing a Brief Psychotic Disorder been revised to include the Interpol, teleportation and a sudden onset (1-2 hours)of mood incongruent behavior?

 

[Rougelatete]

Psychotic knickers and misadventures aside, I would like to know why our mental health experts here feel that they do not have to take evidence into consideration. Truth is that the likelihood of EL having a psychotic episode are also very slim based on evidence. Please enlighten us as to how these things would be a part of psychosis:

Upon learning from Interpol and the RCSM, the LAPD made a Missing Persons announcement to the world. I looked up what areas Interpol takes an interest in and bi-polar psychotic episodes did not make the cut.

EL was last seen later in the night of Jan 31st by an employee in the lobby who said all looked normal. Late night to me means 10-midnight. The video is time stamped Feb 1 12:20 am. How is it EL looks normal and then 1-2 hours experiences an acute psychotic breakdown which is rather conveniently captured on camera?

Has the criteria for DSM IV criteria for diagnosing a Brief Psychotic Disorder been revised to include the Interpol, teleportation and a sudden onset (1-2 hours)of mood incongruent behavior?

I am not disregarding evidence in any kind of way and I'm not sure what all the snarkiness is about. There is evidence that EL was previously diagnosed with Bipolar II, for which she was prescribed medication, and had suffered symptoms in the past. Bipolar II is a serious mental health disorder that should be taken into account just as much as any of the other evidence in this case. ETA: I do not think the chances that EL was experiencing paranoid psychosis are "slim." She was in a strange, unfamiliar place with no real account for why she was there. It is well-known that stressors often play a large role in triggering an episode of psychosis. We also know she was exhibiting some disorganized behavior prior to that night such as losing her phone. There is sufficient reason to believe that her behavior, in its totality, would suggest the possibility of her experiencing mental health issues. Couple that with her being previously diagnosed with a major mental health disorder and I find it perfectly reasonable to talk about this as evidence in the case.

The purpose of websleuths is to research, investigate, and posit theories based on evidence. We are allowed to toss around theories and one person's opportunity to state their theory is just as valid as the next person's.

I don't think we can count on a hotel lobby employee being qualified to judge whether or not someone is experiencing paranoia or psychosis. It is also well-known in the field that persons suffering from paranoia and psychosis are often able to "wrap it up" temporarily, especially in front of others, such as when their case manager visits or they need to have a brief interaction with a stranger. I see this all the time.

No one said anything about Brief Psychotic Disorder.

 

[Conductor71]

I can say without a doubt that if I am ever in a situation where I am concerned for my safety or unsure of what is happening in a place like the Cecil and there is a video camera nearby, I'll be sure to think twice on my actions because I sure the heck wouldn't want someone to think that I was having a psychotic break if in fact I wasn't and later found dead and unable to defend my actions from the video.

Warning signs reported by the family may include changes in eating or sleeping habits, energy level, or weight; confusion, inability to make decisions; hallucinations, delusions, ideas that do not connect or make sense; repetitive actions; hours of immobility; and strange statements and behaviors. They may stop socializing or going to work, and may be inattentive to personal hygiene.

Her behavior looks extra distorted because the speed of the video has been altered plus we are missing 54 seconds of footage. This further undermines any expert input. I agree with you OCSlacker, it is scary. If you sink, you are a witch is what it brings to mind.

This woman's behavior, imo, should not be analyzed in any mental health capacity whatsoever based on this video. It is really not enough to go as far as you did based on what you think is hallucination: DSM IV criteria for a Brief Psychotic Episode:

Brief psychotic disorder is a short-term break from reality, or an acute episode of psychotic symptoms lasting more than a day but less than 1 month. The symptoms may or may not affect daily functioning, and may include fixed but false beliefs (delusions), hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there (hallucinations), disorganized speech, or seriously disorganized behavior.

Warning signs reported by the family may include changes in eating or sleeping habits, energy level, or weight; confusion, inability to make decisions; hallucinations, delusions, ideas that do not connect or make sense; repetitive actions; hours of immobility; and strange statements and behaviors. They may stop socializing or going to work, and may be inattentive to personal hygiene.
Source: http://www.mdguidelines.com/psychotic-disorder-brief

It seems like people would have commented on seeing EL behave oddly prior the video.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I take the freedom to copy this from Wikipedia, since it combines the views of DSM-IV-TR and the WHO ICD-10 so nicely:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis"]Psychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Diagnosing the presence and/or extent of psychosis may be distinguished from diagnosing the cause of psychosis.[15]

The presence of psychosis is typically diagnosed by clinical interview, incorporating mental state examination.[13][14] Its extent may be established by formal rating scales. The Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale (BPRS)[84] assesses the level of 18 symptom constructs of psychosis such as hostility, suspicion, hallucination, and grandiosity. It is based on the clinician's interview with the patient and observations of the patient's behavior over the previous 2–3 days. The patient's family can also provide the behavior report. During the initial assessment and the follow-up, both positive and negative symptoms of psychosis can be assessed using the 30 item Positive and Negative Symptom Scale (PANSS).[85]

Establishing the cause of psychosis requires clinical examination, and sometimes special investigations, to diagnose or exclude secondary causes of psychosis; if these are excluded, a primary psychiatric diagnosis can be established.[15]
--- end quote ---

<modsnip>, that the world's professionals agreed a long time ago, that diagnosing psychosis would need days, clinical examination, often follow up investigation, interviews, not only with the patient but also the family and observations over the time of 2-3 days before the interviews even start. Well, DSM says 2-3, ICD only 2 if I see it right. So ... again, is 2 minutes on a video without sound even nearly enough?

 

[Salem]

Hey everybody - please do NOT be snarky to our verified professionals. They give their opinion and discuss the case just like everyone else -- only they are verified as having specialized knowledge. Posters do not have to accept what they say as the only explanation or the "final" word on something. Our professionals share with us based on the same knowledge that everyone else has and they give a "professional opinion." An opinion many of us greatly appreciate.

If you don't appreciate it - that's fine. Move past the post. But do not attack the verified poster. That's rude and it won't be tolerated.

Salem

 

[paint]

if you told me the video was taking place in a bank building full of professional office workers at noon on a weekday, then i would think twice. but it's not.

i see calm, then scared, spooked, nervous, anxious, frustrated, upset, worried. you have no idea where she's just been or who she's just seen. but i can only imagine. her behavior is understandable IMO.

 

[Peter Brendt]

... snipped for length ...
... last seen on 14th floor, walking into elevator #2. she came from left side of this elevator, but that is only because that is where the elevator buttons are located. could have traveled to E2 from either left or right of hallway. <b>My guess is she came from the right, and had been using the bathroom d/t problems on 4. However, could also have been meeting someone on this floor.</b>

I agree on the other points and I have no idea about the photo, but the thing with the bathroom just hit me. I forgot about the pipe problems and that her room was also in that area, so probably had a bathroom problem.
However, she could have gone to 5th or 6th floor, but she appears next on 14th. Would she have known that only floors 4-6 were actually guest areas? Any signs or something? Because if, it would support the idea, she visited someone on 14th. From what I read, those floors are mostly SRO's, but the hotel can place there guests as well. So the question is, where guests there that night? Was the tattooed guy actually a guest or someone living in an SRO? Any ideas?

 

[Courage100]

For those that do not think she was having a mental breakdown or drugged etc, what is your explanation for why she walks into the elevator and very purposefully presses all the buttons in the middle multiple times (including the "HOLD" button). She leaves the elevator, comes back in and once again presses those buttons in that order.

 

[bourne]

Hi,

I just wanted to weigh in on this case as a verified mental health professional. Before I even learned that EL was previously diagnosed with Bipolar II, I had already come to the conclusion that she appeared to be suffering from a psychotic episode. The video of her in the elevator shaft shows her engaging in behavior that I immediately recognized as typical of psychosis (my primary job at this time is working with people with schizophrenia, Bipolar disorder, and other disorders which feature periods of psychosis).

EL appeared to be responding to internal stimuli (i.e. voices, command hallucinations telling her to do certain things) as well as possible visual hallucinations. The repetitive, disorganized, and agitated nature of her actions is indicative of a psychotic state -- I have seen this exact, same behavior time and again in my clients when they are suffering from psychosis.

It is possible EL was suffering from a psychotic break as a result of her Bipolar II diagnosis. It is also possible she had been misdiagnosed and a more proper fit would be Bipolar I, schizophrenia, or some other diagnosis. The fact that she was 21 years old also makes me question this, as symptoms of schizophrenia are often not apparent in women until they are in their early- to mid-20s, when they have their first true psychotic break (men tend to suffer a first psychotic break at a slightly earlier age, around 18 or so). So, I would be curious to know when she was diagnosed with Bipolar II and how she was being followed and treated, medically and psychiatrically.

So far as theories go, I find it infinitely more plausible that, in a psychotic and paranoid state, EL died as a result of misadventure than the theory that someone drugged and murdered her, dragged her dead-weight body not only to the roof of the hotel but ALSO to the top of the water tank, and then hoisted her in.

I believe EL, suffering from paranoid psychosis, made her way up onto the roof of the hotel (to hide from imaginary threats), disrobed (as a result of command hallucinations), climbed the red fixed ladder on the side of the storage room, jumped down onto the top of the water tank, and, trying to find a place to hide from her imaginary threats, climbed into the water tank, where she subsequently died.

The notion of a murderer preying on someone in a psychotic state and disposing of her body in the manner he supposedly did is ludicrous to me. There is a video showing a 6', 200lb man struggling to carry a 90lb dummy (that's 35lbs less that EL weighed) up a ladder. How on earth did someone carry a 125lb EL up the ladder? And why would they do it in the first place? If you killed someone, whether premeditated or not, that seems like a) a lot of trouble to go through to dispose of the body and b) extremely risky, considering it would take a lot of time to complete the task and it would be highly visible to others. Why not just leave the body somewhere more convenient?

In essence, I 100% believe EL died as a result of misadventure due to paranoid psychosis resulting from mental illness. It is so sad. I wish she had received more adequate treatment and monitoring.

Hi fellow mental health professional! :seeya: I'm retired now but I used to work in a dual-diagnosis unit for psychiatric and addictive disorders.

You and I are of similar opinions about Eliza and her cause of death. I lean strongly (99.95%) towards her cause of death as one from misadventure due to her psychotic state. I even said as much in a post I made a long while back when this thread first started

I differ however about your point regarding the impossibility of someone carrying her body and disposing her body in water tank. (Not that I believe this is what happened to Eliza). Scientifically, just because one individual showed it was difficult to perform these actions does not automatically mean another person would have the same difficulties. E.g., my hubby can carry me up and down the ladder and I'm 125 lbs. He's a very strong, muscular man though, 6'3" and 230 lbs.

As to why the possible perp may not have simply left her body in a more convenient place, there's no accounting for individual variations in behaviors, however foolish, inconvenient and logic-defying it appears to us.

So I'd give the murder theory 0.05% probability.

 

[allison78ca]

Also mentally ill people like to go off their meds which could have also contributed. Plus maybe drinking?


Just trying to make this world a safer place for our children.

 

[noodled1]

Her behavior looks extra distorted because the speed of the video has been altered plus we are missing 54 seconds of footage. This further undermines any expert input.

In all due respect the only reason you think the video is missing 54 seconds is because conspiracy based websites have told people it's missing 54 seconds yet when you press them and ask where the tape was altered they fumble their words and say here and there "whoever did it is good" and finally I have yet read one good reason the recording would be altered. If you want to think it's been screwed with to give a false impression of Elisa for whatever reason go right on ahead but I think you're going down a rabbit hole that there's no return from.

With the help of a friend I've/we've run that video through a couple of sophisticated programs trying to get a clean view of the time stamp and it's impossible. The only thing is that the version we see is it's sped up slightly which could have happened upon downloading or uploading but most likely it was sped up going through tape to digital transfer.

That's why in a court of law time stamps on recordings are heavily scrutinized and often thrown out because they are only as good as the equipment and will easily provide false information. Many systems in place are analog and as such not tied to a computer that would automatically update the time. Think of all the home videos or digital pics you've seen where the time stamp is completely off because you never got around to actually setting it.

Judging from the quality of the video the cameras in place were not great and I imagine the recording equipment wasn't the latest greatest. Probably not even digital, good chance looking at the poor quality they're still using video and that's why the time stamp is corrupted so badly to the point it can't even be recognized.

 

[Sillybilly]

For those that do not think she was having a mental breakdown or drugged etc, what is your explanation for why she walks into the elevator and very purposefully presses all the buttons in the middle multiple times (including the "HOLD" button). She leaves the elevator, comes back in and once again presses those buttons in that order.

For those who think she was having a breakdown, what is your explanation for discounting the fact that she was a female travelling alone and advice from travel safety experts tell people that, if they think they are being followed, to push numerous buttons so the person doesn't know what floor they are getting off at?

As for doing it again, when a button doesn't seem to work the first time, what do we normally do? We push it again, no?

 

[Conductor71]

In all due respect the only reason you think the video is missing 54 seconds is because conspiracy based websites have told people it's missing 54 seconds yet when you press them and ask where the tape was altered they fumble their words and say here and there "whoever did it is good" and finally I have yet read one good reason the recording would be altered. If you want to think it's been screwed with to give a false impression of Elisa for whatever reason go right on ahead but I think you're going down a rabbit hole that there's no return from.

Yes, that 54 second reference is based on the work of someone who may have a bit of an agenda. I do not at all think that Aleister Crowley peeps, thhe Illuminati, poltergeists, or a Tuberculosis Mary had anything to do with altering this video in any capacity. I referred to it mainly because it was proof the speed of was altered and to highlight how I think any person should acknowledge a potential confounding variable before he or she over emphasizes the video again as evidence. I added in the 54 seconds to suggest that likely the police had much more footage of her in the hotel that they did not show- they have their reasons, and I am sure they are sound ones. I didn't want to explain all that because I already blather, and the credibility of the source was of no relevance. If I had a PsyD or MD, I would be interested in seeing if the speed might have biased my professional assessment in any way.

 

[Montjoy]

For those who think she was having a breakdown, what is your explanation for discounting the fact that she was a female travelling alone and advice from travel safety experts tell people that, if they think they are being followed, to push numerous buttons so the person doesn't know what floor they are getting off at?

With respect, I do not think that someone concerned about being followed would press a button for a floor next to the one on which they were -- if you were, say, on the 5th floor, why would you want the door to go through the time spent in the opening and closing sequence on an adjacent floor? If one were worried, the course of action would be to go to the lobby. Someone nervous about being followed would be jamming the 'door close' button. But again, I really haven't seen anything to suggest there was anyone outside of the elevator -- EL spent too much time walking at and outside of the door to suggest fear of a real, physical person (IMO).

The idea of pushing a number of buttons to confuse, say, a stalker, does not jibe with someone believing s/he was in in imminent threat. It's more of a strategy popularized by television.

 

[Montjoy]

Silly Billy's idea on setting up a separate topical expert thread is a winner. I think this is a really great dynamic between expert and regular posters that deserves consideration for any and all future expert visits across the entire forum. Maybe it is out of line to ask but I think it would be an ideal way for us all to have a place where we can expect less bickering and more insightful exchange of ideas. This is already a great forum, but I guess I see "expert" meaning something else?

I'm not sure if I understand, but I am not sure why verified experts should be ghettoized into specific threads, and thus penalized for their expertise. I am also hard pressed to see them as the source of the 'bickering', nor do I see them as a hindrance to the 'insightful exchange of ideas.'

 

[Courage100]

to push numerous buttons so the person doesn't know what floor they are getting off at?

Pressing the "Hold" door open is not something that is recommended by any safety experts. What is your explanation for that? Why would she also press the button on the floor she is already on?

As for doing it again, when a button doesn't seem to work the first time, what do we normally do? We push it again, no?

I've never seen someone push the button for the floor they are on and also push the Hold door open button over and over again to try to get an elevator to move.

 

[Sillybilly]

In all due respect the only reason you think the video is missing 54 seconds is because conspiracy based websites have told people it's missing 54 seconds yet when you press them and ask where the tape was altered they fumble their words and say here and there "whoever did it is good" and finally I have yet read one good reason the recording would be altered. If you want to think it's been screwed with to give a false impression of Elisa for whatever reason go right on ahead but I think you're going down a rabbit hole that there's no return from.

With the help of a friend I've/we've run that video through a couple of sophisticated programs trying to get a clean view of the time stamp and it's impossible. The only thing is that the version we see is it's sped up slightly which could have happened upon downloading or uploading but most likely it was sped up going through tape to digital transfer.

That's why in a court of law time stamps on recordings are heavily scrutinized and often thrown out because they are only as good as the equipment and will easily provide false information. Many systems in place are analog and as such not tied to a computer that would automatically update the time. Think of all the home videos or digital pics you've seen where the time stamp is completely off because you never got around to actually setting it.

Judging from the quality of the video the cameras in place were not great and I imagine the recording equipment wasn't the latest greatest. Probably not even digital, good chance looking at the poor quality they're still using video and that's why the time stamp is corrupted so badly to the point it can't even be recognized.

I prayed to my data usage gods and can watch videos again

Just went through the time synchronized video, and I DO see precisely what "they" are getting at.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YO4QbaNDjI"]Elisa Lam Time Stamp Conspiracy MUST SEE! - YouTube[/ame]


This explanation isn't scientific by any means, but in staring at that blurry and mostly illegible timestamp, I can certainly see what they have discovered.

In staring at those three sets of numbers, from right to left .. milliseconds, seconds, minutes, we see normal synchronization in the beginning. We see the milliseconds zipping along, and then to the left the seconds move along slower, then to the left of that, the third set of digits on the timestamp finally bumps / jumps right at the 1 minute mark of the video. Those "minutes" on the timestamp then remain 100% stationary again until the 2 minute mark of the video, when they bump / jump again.

However, AFTER we have seen the minutes on the timestamp bump precisely at the 1 minute and 2 minute marks of the video, the timestamp bumps up again at 2:05 in the video, then the timestamp seconds freeze a couple of times, and then the timestamp seems to resume normally.

I believe the "conspiracy theorists" are accurate in their calculation that approx 54 seconds has been edited out after Elisa leaves ... whether it be by LE to edit out innocent peeps, but as has been asked before, why bother? ... or it could be hotel staff altered it ... for whatever reasons.

Not a conspiracy theorist here, but definitely see what "they" mean.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

With respect, I do not think that someone concerned about being followed would press a button for a floor next to the one on which they were -- if you were, say, on the 5th floor, why would you want the door to go through the time spent in the opening and closing sequence on an adjacent floor? If one were worried, the course of action would be to go to the lobby. Someone nervous about being followed would be jamming the 'door close' button. But again, I really haven't seen anything to suggest there was anyone outside of the elevator -- EL spent too much time walking at and outside of the door to suggest fear of a real, physical person (IMO).

The idea of pushing a number of buttons to confuse, say, a stalker, does not jibe with someone believing s/he was in in imminent threat. It's more of a strategy popularized by television.

I didn't make it up ... it's advice from travel safty experts on the internet, one of whom is a detective whose site I linked to earlier.