Evidence of Premeditation?

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evidence of premeditation...

I believe it would be in her previously described behavior patterns

"A former colleague at Mooberry, who asked not to be named, described Horman as dedicated but strict.

"She had those kids walking down the hall in a straight line not talking," the former colleague said. "She was really organized. She had everything laid out for days ahead. She was really in control of what she was doing. She liked kids and she liked teaching."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
 
If she is so meticulous, why would she be unaccountable for 90 minutes in a crucial timeline?
 
nonfictionrocks said:
If she is so meticulous, why would she be unaccountable for 90 minutes in a crucial timeline?
Click to expand...

I can agree with that statement, and not to sound like I am nitpicking, but just out of curiosity, I saw where you posted on the poll thread that you didnt think Terri was resposible at all for the disappearance of Kyron and the school was responsible. Just a little perplexed here. So why do you think she is being unaccountable for 90 mins?
 
EastCoast said:
I can agree with that statement, and not to sound like I am nitpicking, but just out of curiosity, I saw where you posted on the poll thread that you didnt think Terri was resposible at all for the disappearance of Kyron and the school was responsible. Just a little perplexed here. So why do you think she is being unaccountable for 90 mins?
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I was referring to the time period between when she spoke to Andrea at the FM store and when she checked in at the gym. The period of time that was spent driving around trying to settle the baby, an explanation that never raised any flag with me because I have done this too many times to give any accurate count. JMO
 
nonfictionrocks said:
If she is so meticulous, why would she be unaccountable for 90 minutes in a crucial timeline?
Click to expand...

Great question, would love to hear your thoughts on it. I wish i knew. It is extremely hard and utterly frustrating to get an accurate picture of TH.

drinking,slurring words, staggering passing out on the couch leaving baby K unattended to late hours of the night watching TV.. doesn't sound like someone in control of their behavior.

Master of deceit, hid the alcohol abuse, hid many aspects of herself, ... sounds like someone with lots of control on their behavior

Wanting daily school reports from kyrons teacher and wanting him punished sent to his room for the evening, no playtime or not allowed to watch movies. sounds obsessive and excessive

No mention of what happened if the report was good eg: did she reward as excessively as she wanted the punishment?

MFH no one was any the wiser to it until 5- 6 months go by and a huge investigation is launched into Kyrons disappearance... sounds like someone who can pre-plan things well and keep it to themselves for a long time if not forever imo

No way to confirm the MFH at this point in time...

The above descriptions are from KH and there are many more examples but again they are divorcing and he believes Th to responsible for disappearing his son and trying to kill him...so not the most unbiased source :)

That is why in my above post I looked for someone who was not related and or at one time married to, or had relation to Kyron (DY,TY) for a description of how Th behaved away from the family situations. Her former collegue described her as organized, had things planned days ahead, very in control etc..

Also noted that Th had not worked with this person for years and her behavior in recent times could very well have been erratic at best with this controlled outlook long gone from her repertoire..

Perhaps Th is of two personalities and both are correct..I'm stymied by the character descriptions we have of her.
 
nonfictionrocks said:
I was referring to the time period between when she spoke to Andrea at the FM store and when she checked in at the gym. The period of time that was spent driving around trying to settle the baby, an explanation that never raised any flag with me because I have done this too many times to give any accurate count. JMO
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for answering. I am perpetually trying to make sense of this case and appreciate what others may think. I seem to never have an exact what I did at what specific time, but I have a pretty accurate list of what I did during my day, went to the bank, went to the post office, watched the grandbaby, went to the store, worked at the office, etc. I was never one to just drive around to quiet a baby, but I do have friends and family where that was the only way to get the child to sleep.
 
scotslass said:
Great question, would love to hear your thoughts on it. I wish i knew. It is extremely hard and utterly frustrating to get an accurate picture of TH.

drinking,slurring words, staggering passing out on the couch leaving baby K unattended to late hours of the night watching TV.. doesn't sound like someone in control of their behavior.

Master of deceit, hid the alcohol abuse, hid many aspects of herself, ... sounds like someone with lots of control on their behavior

Wanting daily school reports from kyrons teacher and wanting him punished sent to his room for the evening, no playtime or not allowed to watch movies. sounds obsessive and excessive

No mention of what happened if the report was good eg: did she reward as excessively as she wanted the punishment?

MFH no one was any the wiser to it until 5- 6 months go by and a huge investigation is launched into Kyrons disappearance... sounds like someone who can pre-plan things well and keep it to themselves for a long time if not forever imo

No way to confirm the MFH at this point in time...

The above descriptions are from KH and there are many more examples but again they are divorcing and he believes Th to responsible for disappearing his son and trying to kill him...so not the most unbiased source :)

That is why in my above post I looked for someone who was not related and or at one time married to, or had relation to Kyron (DY,TY) for a description of how Th behaved away from the family situations. Her former collegue described her as organized, had things planned days ahead, very in control etc..

Also noted that Th had not worked with this person for years and her behavior in recent times could very well have been erratic at best with this controlled outlook long gone from her repertoire..

Perhaps Th is of two personalities and both are correct..I'm stymied by the character descriptions we have of her.
Click to expand...

Hi Scotlass, you asked me for my thoughts on this question in my post:

If she is so meticulous, why would she be unaccountable for 90 minutes in a crucial timeline?

I find her story about driving around for a hour and a half trying to settle a fussy baby believable, having done it myself countless times ;)
 
nonfictionrocks said:
Hi Scotlass, you asked me for my thoughts on this question in my post:

If she is so meticulous, why would she be unaccountable for 90 minutes in a crucial timeline?

I find her story about driving around for a hour and a half trying to settle a fussy baby believable, having done it myself countless times ;)
Click to expand...

Not to get too far off topic, but what do you think happened with Kyron? The school and teacher are 100% responsible? You don't think a predator was involved? (I do think the school has some responsibility, but I am less sure about the teacher)
 
EastCoast said:
Ok, thanks for answering. I am perpetually trying to make sense of this case and appreciate what others may think. I seem to never have an exact what I did at what specific time, but I have a pretty accurate list of what I did during my day, went to the bank, went to the post office, watched the grandbaby, went to the store, worked at the office, etc. I was never one to just drive around to quiet a baby, but I do have friends and family where that was the only way to get the child to sleep.
Click to expand...

I didn't do it to just settle down one of my babies, we did this almost every morning. It was a part of our daily routine. After breakfast, I put the baby in the car, pop through the drive through, pick up a coffee for me and then take a drive exploring the surrounding areas. We looked at farm animals (my first baby loved this) and we checked out construction sites (the younger one loved the yellow big heavy construction equipment).
 
citigirl said:
Not to get too far off topic, but what do you think happened with Kyron? The school and teacher are 100% responsible? You don't think a predator was involved? (I do think the school has some responsibility, but I am less sure about the teacher)
Click to expand...

I do think it was acquaintance/stranger abduction and I also think that both the school and the teacher should be held accountable. I have yet to see any evidence or "evidence of premeditation" that convinces me otherwise. JMO
 
nonfictionrocks said:
I didn't do it to just settle down one of my babies, we did this almost every morning. It was a part of our daily routine. After breakfast, I put the baby in the car, pop through the drive through, pick up a coffee for me and then take a drive exploring the surrounding areas. We looked at farm animals (my first baby loved this) and we checked out construction sites (the younger one loved the yellow big heavy construction equipment).
Click to expand...

That would have been wonderful if Terri had of said something like that to LE, somehow I don't think thats how she answered them.
 
nonfictionrocks said:
I didn't do it to just settle down one of my babies, we did this almost every morning. It was a part of our daily routine. After breakfast, I put the baby in the car, pop through the drive through, pick up a coffee for me and then take a drive exploring the surrounding areas. We looked at farm animals (my first baby loved this) and we checked out construction sites (the younger one loved the yellow big heavy construction equipment).
Click to expand...

ok, i get that now. That is why i love others viewpoints. I happen to just not like driving around lol. I will walk anywhere, but driving is kind of stressful to me. So that is a main point in question, Terri may have just randomly driven around because that is what she likes to do. Juries really are strange bedfellows, so the substantiated facts really need to be out there. We all differ on what the norm is
 
And maybe OT but went to a Thanksgiving Lunch at granddaughters school the other day and it was chaos. All the parents and guests were there and too many people in and out. there was no way the school employees could have kept track of all the children. I made it a point to tell my grand daughters teacher I was taking her to the book fair being held in the hallway and I would return her to the class. There is no way the teachers can keep up with all the students.
 
nonfictionrocks said:
I didn't do it to just settle down one of my babies, we did this almost every morning. It was a part of our daily routine. After breakfast, I put the baby in the car, pop through the drive through, pick up a coffee for me and then take a drive exploring the surrounding areas. We looked at farm animals (my first baby loved this) and we checked out construction sites (the younger one loved the yellow big heavy construction equipment).
Click to expand...

I've certainly had babies fall asleep in the car, although I never drove around for that purpose alone (mainly because I had an old car and no cellphone so I didn't want to get stranded out in the country somewhere with a baby).

The problem isn't whether it is possible that she drove around with the baby, it's the other conflicting parts of her story.

Number one, TH never said that this was part of her routine, or that she was enjoying the countryside with Kiara. She wasn't visiting a duck pond or going to see horses or watching butterflies or anything a baby might enjoy.

Terri said her daughter was sick that day and she wanted her to go to sleep.

I wonder why a child that age needed to take a morning nap anyway, except for TH's convenience. :furious: My children took two naps a day up until about a year old when they gave up the morning nap. That's normal in my experience as a mother. Expecting kids to sleep through the morning every morning is not normal.

And also in hindsight, it's fascinating that Kaine mentioned Baby K. getting back up with Terri at night. If she was sleeping too much during the day, it might explain why her sleep patterns were disturbed. That is not an uncommon problem - I've known parents dealing with day cares or even kindergartens where napping during the day becomes a problem for bedtimes. But in this case, under these circumstances, it becomes questionable because of Terri using Baby K as an alibi the morning that Kyron disappeared.

Driving around a sick child with an alleged ear infection might not seem strange. But it does if once they are asleep you don't take them home to their own cozy bed but to a gym daycare.

You know, gyms are full of germs and viruses. My son played football and wrestled in middle and high school and I would never have let my youngest child play on that gym floor or the workout room. It's gross, and the that very idea has always bothered me about this case.

I would bet money that Kaine didn't know how often TH left Kiara in that gym daycare every day.

And if the Gym daycare knew that Baby K. was ill that day, they were probably breaking their own rules letting her stay. Every reputable daycare I know about has a rule about now allowing children with illness or fever for the sake of other children there.

However, I do think Terri probably planned to use the Gym as an alibi, which shows premeditation. Perhaps Baby K. being sick that day messed up the plan somewhat.
 
EastCoast said:
ok, i get that now. That is why i love others viewpoints. I happen to just not like driving around lol. I will walk anywhere, but driving is kind of stressful to me. So that is a main point in question, Terri may have just randomly driven around because that is what she likes to do. Juries really are strange bedfellows, so the substantiated facts really need to be out there. We all differ on what the norm is
Click to expand...

Here's the thing, I did this everyday (M-F) and even though my husband is aware of my addiction to a certain coffee franchise's brew, I don't think he was aware that I did this everyday or of the amount of driving I did after I pick up my hot beverage. I did enjoy having the little guys "strapped in" and it was just a mindless, relaxing break for me, listening to tunes and enjoying some scenary before I needed to get things done in my day. Sorry this has gone way OT.
 
I'd like to know when the truck was filled up. If Terri really did have to spend her own money then it wouldn't make sense that she'd drive a big pickup around for 1.5 hours and use that much gas. I still think she might have been freaked out about something and was going to run off, but decided against it. That is, if there really was any driving around for that long. That is just not good premeditation for someone who is described as a master of deception, professional of misdirection. However, driving around in an opposite direction or not driving at all would really be misdirection. Not trying to be snide or funny, but wonder if she knows how to siphon out gas through a hose to make it look like she really was out driving.
 
I agree that it is possible that Terri did drive around for 90 minutes with Baby K trying to get her to sleep, but what really raises a red flag for me is what she stated in the e-mail to a friend that was released to the media. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of trying to get K asleep for a few minutes. To me "a few minutes" cannot be confused with "90 minutes"....

Another thing that raised a red flag for me is when she states in the e-mail regarding Kyron's possible seizures. I find it hard to believe that a doctor would diagnose possible "mini seizures" from a telephone conversation with a child's caretaker. Besides, how many parents out there actually speak with your child's doctor when making a doctor's appointment? From my experiences, (and I could be wrong about Kyron's doctor), when I have called the doctor's office regarding my child, I would be speaking to the receptionist answering the telephone, and then a nurse if I feel there is a problem. I would also question why a doctor would not want to see a child right away--and not wait for an appointment a week later--if he or she truly suspected a child was suffering from seizures? Also, if you suspected your child was having random seizures, would you leave him in a hallway alone walking to a classroom? Just my thoughts.
 
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