Evidence

[Cher Lockhomes]

You could be right, CL. I just find it a little hard to believe that the degloving was due to animal predation. What animal would snap off just a part of the genitals? And, like Userid mentioned, there are stab wounds in the groin area. So it doesn't really add up for me. I know there are a lot of experts who say it's animal predation, but then there are other experts (like Peretti and Turvey, how reliable they may be) who say it was done by the perp. Btw, where did you read that TH cut up PH's clothes? That's new to me.

Yes, I have the same problems with this. I won't look at these photos, but if it's like CR and many others say, that the skin is removed, the scrotum has gone, but the shaft is still there, it makes it difficult to believe that it's only animal predation. As I said before, if it was a perp who indulges in this sort of thing, why not all three boys ? If it was animal predation, why not all three boys ?. This is an aweful subject.

On a lighter note, those snapping turtles were not interviewed by the wmpd either.

Here the requested link and quote:

http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/pam_hobbs_interview.pdf p22

After Terry was gone he had set a trash bag out on the carport and said that that’s was my clothes and that's what 1 could have take it with me. Well, I didn’t even attempt to even look into it or anythang while the police was there I wished I had of because I didn’t 1 held on to them clothes for years but I threw em away. I thank I may have still one shirt. Terry had taken almost every stitch of clothing that I had, I don’t know if he cut it with a knife or if he cut it with a box cutter or what. But the clothing that he had in that trash bag to give me and this was even down to my bra’s and underwear they were cut. And uh the shirt that I had wore the night of the John Walsh thang it was a real like in my heart and it was a real black at my back and my underwear I mean but it was crazy you know. Oh my God just staying with my sister what would make him that mad that he would do that to my clothing.

This is also interesting concerning this subject

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/p_hobbs_declaration1.html

64. Terry has been acting very strange regarding whether he was involved in the Murders. In 2002 or 2003, Terry and I went with my sister, Jo Lynn, to Missouri. We were all sitting up talking one evening and out of the blue Terry asked Jo Lynn, "Do you think I could've been involved?" It was obvious Terry meant do you think I could've been involved in the Murders. Jo Lynn responded, "Do you want me to tell you the truth or do you want me to lie?" Terry said he wanted the truth. Jo Lynn said, "Yeah, I think you could be involved." Terry responded that he could not believe that Jo Lynn would actually think that he would have anything to do with the murders. Then, Terry immediately said that because he had worked in the slaughterhouse and had butchered animals, "I could skin a man alive, I could cut him up." It blew my mind that he would make such grotesque comments after my sister had told him that she thought he might be involved in the Murders. I had never heard him discuss the slaughterhouse in that sort of way, nor had I heard him discuss how he could cut up human beings. It came completely out of the blue. I could see that Jo Lynn was also appalled that Terry would talk about his ability to cut up human beings while we were talking about whether he was involved in the Murders.

As usual with TH, these things are singularly discussed away, but in their entirety, they are disturbing. All JMO.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

Yes, I have the same problems with this. I won't look at these photos, but if it's like CR and many others say, that the skin is removed, the scrotum has gone, but the shaft is still there, it makes it difficult to believe that it's only animal predation. As I said before, if it was a perp who indulges in this sort of thing, why not all three boys ? If it was animal predation, why not all three boys ?. This is an aweful subject.

It is indeed. What I can imagine is that the perp had in mind that he wanted to do it to all boys, but after doing it to CB, he decided not to (because of disgust, regret, something else). TH's comment about the slaughter house, if true, is pretty disturbing, JMO.

 

[Userid]

Yes, I have the same problems with this. I won't look at these photos, but if it's like CR and many others say, that the skin is removed, the scrotum has gone, but the shaft is still there, it makes it difficult to believe that it's only animal predation. As I said before, if it was a perp who indulges in this sort of thing, why not all three boys ? If it was animal predation, why not all three boys ?. This is an aweful subject.

Time. Also, part of me wonders if SB and MM came upon CB already being "attacked," and here's why: CB was the first to pass (autopsy indicating he died from his physical injuries; only one to not die from drowning; abrasions around the bindings were yellowish, indicating he had passed or was close to passing before they were applied). Also, CB was the one "separate" from SB and MM throughout the day; and there are sightings of CB alone as late as 6:30 to 7:00 pm (Chris Posey, who knew the victim well, etc.).

But even if you dismiss all of that I've just stated in the paragraph above, there's always been a part of me that wondered if just one of the boys was a primary target, as opposed to all three being primary targets at the same time. It just makes more sense to me that only one of the boys was the main target. Many share this same view, with SB being the main target (which I disagree with); my view, holds not SB but CB as the main target, precisely because of the severity of his injuries in addition to the genital mutilation.

 

[zencompass]

to Userid: Who do you think did this ? Also, why do you think C.B. was chosen as the main target? Thanks in advance,

 

[Userid]

Zencompass,

Currently, I don't have a dead-set belief as to who perpetuated this crime; and unfortunately, chances are, I never will (unless additional evidence comes out, other than what is already out there on Callahan's). Personally, there isn't enough for me to believe with any degree of high certainty who committed these crimes.

I think CB could have been targeted for the same reason any sexual crime victim is targeted, be it through an infatuation, a familiarity, maybe even convenience/moment of opportunity, etc.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Again, if the genital mutilation on CB was from animal predation (in part or in whole), SB would be the one who was more viciously attacked. Additionally, if the mark over SB's eye is a human bite mark, that is also a personal attack. IMO, the genital injuries were so grotesque that that injury was the focus of everyone's thoughts as to motive. Of course, an attack on the genitals is not part of Satanic ritualistic abuse, but the wmpd (and Griffis) tried to make everyone believe it was! Although I agree that it's pretty obvious that CB was the first to die, I don't see that he had to have been the first one attacked. IMO, SB was attacked first. Then, CB and MM in Blitzkrieg fashion. JMO

 

[TheContinentalOp]

Again, if the genital mutilation on CB was from animal predation (in part or in whole), SB would be the one who was more viciously attacked. Additionally, if the mark over SB's eye is a human bite mark, that is also a personal attack. IMO, the genital injuries were so grotesque that that injury was the focus of everyone's thoughts as to motive. Of course, an attack on the genitals is not part of Satanic ritualistic abuse, but the wmpd (and Griffis) tried to make everyone believe it was! Although I agree that it's pretty obvious that CB was the first to die, I don't see that he had to have been the first one attacked. IMO, SB was attacked first. Then, CB and MM in Blitzkrieg fashion. JMO

If that is the case, then did the police get a dental match from that, if it was possible? Dental evidence can be crucial.

 

[TheContinentalOp]

You make a good point zencompass. IMO, the prosecution should run new tests on all the hairs found on the crime scene, force TH to give a hair sample, compare that hair sample with the hairs on the crime scene and if they match, they should arrest him and put him on trial. So far, all we know is that there is a minuscule difference between TH's mtDNA and the mtDNA of the hair found on MM's ligature. But let's not forget that these tests were done about a decade ago. Since then, I assume the world of DNA testing has greatly improved. A new test would be more accurate. According to jivepuppy, there are two other hairs very similar to the hair on MM's ligature (the hair found on the tree trunk and a dyed hair found on the morgue sheet covering SB). A new test might reveal that these hairs belong to the same source..

About other evidence in this case: fibers from one of the black shoe laces used to tie up the victims were microscopically similar to fibers found on one of TH's knives: http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/microtrace_report_092509.pdf

I know this reply is months later, but won't that be considered concrete evidence? If not, then why did police found that circumstantial?

 

[Lethalmatthew]

I know this reply is months later, but won't that be considered concrete evidence? If not, then why did police found that circumstantial?

Good question, TCO! This evidence seems pretty solid to me, too. Why the DA doesn't deem it (and the other evidence, like the hairs) sufficient to bring TH to court is a mystery to me. Maybe they don't want to admit that they got the wrong people in jail? Or could there be some sort of a coverup? I'm still on the fence about that.

 

[zencompass]

Thanks for your response Userid! Sounds like you are positing that CB could have been the target of a sexual predator? Does that mean that you are leaning more to the idea that this was likely done by a paedophile or paedophiles?

I would really like to hear your top three speculations because none of us really know for certain what happened. From your posts it shows that you have studied this case for quite awhile and that makes me really wonder what you think may have happened. Your top three scenarios? I do try to keep an open mind . Thanks in advance,

 

[Userid]

I know this reply is months later, but won't that be considered concrete evidence? If not, then why did police found that circumstantial?

It was circumstantial for the same reason that the fiber evidence tying Jason B. (from his mother's robe) and Damien E. (from his T-shirt) to the crime was circumstantial (as it should have been).

We can't have it both ways, just because it's TH. Fiber evidence, in and of itself, is extremely suspect.

 

[Userid]

Thanks for your response Userid! Sounds like you are positing that CB could have been the target of a sexual predator? Does that mean that you are leaning more to the idea that this was likely done by a paedophile or paedophiles?

I would really like to hear your top three speculations because none of us really know for certain what happened. From your posts it shows that you have studied this case for quite awhile and that makes me really wonder what you think may have happened. Your top three scenarios? I do try to keep an open mind . Thanks in advance,

Yes -- I believe there was a sexual component to this crime (that it wasn't staged to look like such), so yes, I do believe a pedophile could have committed this crime. I believe it was a pedophile that was on the periphery of one of the families, but not necessarily a family member himself, who knew at least one of the victims well. Since I have a feeling someone will ask, no, I don't believe JKM committed these crimes. I do not at all believe it was "a group of pedophiles" and I vehemently do not believe as some do that there was some underground pedophile ring connected to the WMPD and/or that TH was somehow a part of. I believe it was one pedophile; that the murders occurred elsewhere, and I believe that he could have had help in at least disposing of the bodies. This is scenario 1, and probably the one I lean toward most.

Scenario 2: that this was a bullying-gone-too-far scenario. The reason I believe this is the following: the teens that MM's sister and Kim W. saw exiting where the 3 boys were last seen entering by multiple witnesses (after MM's mother told MM's sister to ride after them down the block. Note: these teens are not the WM3). It was unknown whether the 2 boys were actually African-American or if they simply had their faces painted in "black-face." The sinister and somewhat cryptic "Do you want a shot" question (which could also be sexual in nature), in addition to the possible disguise of 2 of the boys, make me wonder.
3 Teens (Not WM3) corroborated by both DM and KW -- http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dawnm.html & http://callahan.8k.com/images2/k_williams_notes.JPG

Scenario 3: That the boys were being punished for being "unnatural" with each other. Why I believe this is due to an incident that was reported by RC's friend where MM and CB were seen (supposedly) both unclothed and acting inappropriately with each other in a back yard.
Incident -- http://callahan.8k.com/images2/c_bell/c_bell_interview2_01.JPG

The bullying-gone-wrong would have obviously been teenagers, but the "unnatural" incident's punishment could have been doled out from anyone (a family member, a non-immediate family member, a religous fanatic in the bible belt who views homosexuality as the ultimate sin, a group of teens, etc.). In either scenario (2 & 3), the boys were murdered outside, either at the discovery ditch or more in the Devil's Den area.

If I absolutely had to pick, I'd say the people who are high on my suspect list are: OB, Jr; JM; LGH (perhaps not directly involved, but involved in disposal and knows more than he had divulged). But again, I don't dismiss anyone in this case as a potential suspect. One person who is quite low on my list is TH.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

Scenario 3: That the boys were being punished for being "unnatural" with each other. Why I believe this is due to an incident that was reported by RC's friend where MM and CB were seen (supposedly) both unclothed and acting inappropriately with each other in a back yard.
Incident -- http://callahan.8k.com/images2/c_bell/c_bell_interview2_01.JPG

That's very interesting! I didn't know about that incident. If you combine this anecdote with Turvey's opinion that SB was a very sexualized child, it's possible that they were 'experimenting' with each other, perhaps even on the day of the murders. Just imagine what TH would do if he caught them doing that! It could explain why he punished MM and CB, as well as SB. The sighting of three teenagers at Robin Hood Woods around the (likely) time of the murders is interesting, but I have a hard time seeing three teenagers tying the bodies, moving them, placing them in the ditch and sticking the clothes in the mud. Not impossible, just not likely, IMO.
I have a question for you Userid, why do you have TH so low on your suspect list? Don't you think it's suspicious that he is lying about his whereabouts on May 5th?

 

[Userid]

I guess the main reason why TH is so low on my list is because almost all the claims that point to his involvement are either completely unsubstantiated or outright false. In addition, I believe that he was simply picked in the same exact way JMB was picked (in PL2). In a way, instead of letting the evidence itself lead you to the killer, the film makers and the Defense simply picked a suspect and worked backwards to make the evidence fit their already-chosen end. But here are the exact reasons why I don't believe TH committed these crimes:

1. The Jamie Clark Ballard sighting is completely full of holes (there are a plethora of reason I've gone over before in other threads, but I'm too lazy to do so here, so I apologize in advance, but I will say this)). Her initial sightings of the boys in her yard at 5:30/6:00 directly contradict the ones of the boys seen riding down MM/CB's block toward the Goodwin entrance of RHH by not only a plethora witnesses, but witnesses directly related to MM's family (his mother and sister).

2. I don't believe that is a "bite mark." In that tightly cropped photo, yes, it does look like a bite mark at first glance; but having seen this injury in its entirety, over the whole side of the victim's face, the "bottom teeth marks" and crescent moon shapes extend much farther to the right of his brow and can be found not only on the victim's cheek, but on another victim's (CB's) face, in addition to CB's upper thighs, this proves to me that is not a bite mark at all. The dentist's video isn't compelling to me, and was never followed through even by the Defense teams he sent it to, most likely because they also found it to be suspect and/or unconvincing at best.

3. If you believe there are a lot of holes in TH's alibi, take a look at JMB's alibi as thoroughly. I guarantee you, you will find a million more gaping holes in the latter's alibi than you do the former's. In all honestly, I don't give credence to anybody's alibi in this case, because it's like literally every single person is either lying or misremembering key time periods of this day. Many people claim that TH puts himself in the discovery site, but JMB also puts himself in the vicinity of the dump site, not only at extremely suspicious times, but repeatedly, all through out the night.

4. The only way TH could have committed this crime is an abuse-gone-wrong scenario; and as I've stated, I think there was a sexual component to this crime. In my scenario 3, if he did catch these boys, then SB would have the genital wounds, in that he would no doubt be more angry at SB for engaging in this "sinful" activity than a boy he hardly knew (he knew MM well, but SB and CB weren't friends for long).

Plain and simply, with the "bite mark" being really the only thing connecting him, all the other "evidence" that goes against him is nothing but unsubstantiated reports from people (mostly PH's side) who have come out decades later. There is nothing to prove any of it -- the AH child abuse, the "doing laundry" incident, the "he didn't like SB" theory -- other than the word of those directly throwing out these allegations.

 

[zencompass]

I am interested in who was in the area after M.M. went around the corner and out of his mother's view. I would love to hear others' views on this as well. One question is how did Dawn miss seeing her brother on his bike as soon as she followed him on her bike just around the corner?

M.M.'s mother last saw M.M. turning the corner from Goodwin Street onto N. 14th Street. This to me could possibly have been the most critical moment, the pivotal moment.

Here is part of M.M.'s mother's testimony stating that when she sent her daughter to go get M.M., she could still see him going around the corner:

"FORD: Okay. And... when you, when you sent her out to fetch Michael to come home for supper could you see him out in the distance at all?
MOORE: Yes.
FORD: You could see him?
MOORE: Yes.
FORD: Okay, and did you point him out to your to your daughter?
MOORE: She knew it was him.
FORD: Okay, and so she went out after him?
MOORE: Yes.
FORD: But she came back and never found him.
MOORE: No.
FORD: Okay... can you, can you tell me uhm... how far Mike was from you when you, when you could see him out in the neighborhood?
MOORE: We have a curb on 14th Street...
FORD: Okay.
MOORE: And he was going around that curve.
FORD: So you could see him but he turned the corner and went...
MOORE: He was turning as, as he was going.
FORD: Okay, and when, as he would have turned, would he have gone out of sight from your home?
MOORE: Yes.
"

I don't understand how D.M. on her bike could not catch up with her brother - even though he apparently just went around the corner!

Who was around that corner?
According to Kim. W. (as told to Detective Ridge and in his handwriting) : She saw "their bikes left along the road by Goodwin". She also said she saw three older boys:
"Saw 1 w/m/ 1 or both of b/m's went into
houses on West side one of 4 house
standing to a man and woman in truck" (N.B. that is the actual wording ]

http://callahan.8k.com/images2/k_williams_notes.JPG

Dawn stated that she saw the 3 males coming out of Robin Hood. But where would her brother have gone? And why didn't she mention the bikes?
http://callahan.8k.com/images/dawnmreport.jpg

Dawn M. even drew a map illustrating where she saw the 3 males:
http://callahan.8k.com/images/dawndrawing.jpg

Kim Williams stated that she witnessed Steve and Michael heading down the side of the ditch that goes under the road but did not see Chris. She also stated she saw "their bikes left along the road by Goodwin" and I find it interesting that the words "standing a man and a woman in a truck" are written near the end of the interview in Ridge's notes but omitted from his handwritten report of the interview. Also missing are the words "had dark long hair" which do appear in the handwritten notes describing the white male)
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/k_williams_notes.JPG

This sheet has both Kim W.'s (003397)and Dawn M.'s (003398) statements together on one page:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dawnm.html
Note as well that the mention of "a man and a woman in a truck" has been omitted from this page as well as the w/m having "dark long hair".

I don't understand why this information describing the last moment she saw her son was not followed up - in fact it wasn't even copied over from notes to report. Reading through these, I get the distinct feeling that this part of the investigation was being "phoned in" so to speak.

To me this would have greatly helped the investigation - maybe even interviewing Kim W. at the time again may have solved this - who knows? She noticed the truck - she would have been able to describe it - even just the color of it - had this question been asked of her. Was she sure it was a man and a woman? Had Kim W. said "one male stood talking to a man and a woman in a truck" and Ridge wrote "standing a man and a woman in a truck"?

Can anyone point to me where there was a follow up and I missed it? Thanks in advance!

 

[Lethalmatthew]

Good questions, Zencompass! AFAIK, there never was a follow up to Kim's and Dawn's sighting, but I'm not sure. One thing that I wonder about is this: did MM and SB go into Robin Hood Woods before they were seen by DM? Kim saw only MM and SB, she saw that they left their bikes at the entrance and she claimed this happened somewhere between 17:30 and 18:00. DM saw the three boys together, and her daughter Dawn didn't see any bikes. Also, Dawn couldn't have been at the entrance to Robin Hood Woods before 18:00. So were these two separate sightings?
Dawn said that she saw the W/M and one of the two B/Ms enter a house 'close to Goodwin' about 45 minutes after she first saw the three teenagers (http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dawnm.html). I wonder if that was a vacant house? If not, wouldn't it be easy for LE to find out who these teens were?

 

[zencompass]

Thanks Lethalmatthew!

Yes I would think that the police would follow that up especially when Dawn reported she thought the 3 older boys were offering her drugs. In Kim's interview she also repeated what Dawn told her about what the boys said to her about how she thought they were offering her drugs.

Aside from investigating which house these boys were in and whether there were drugs there, the police should have found and interviewed the three boys as they would have passed CB, MM and SB at that time.

These would have been important questions to ask the three boys. They may have seen something crucial to the investigation. This lead was dropped unfortunately.

Lethalmatthew -- you question whether it was a vacant house the boys entered. Great catch!

 

[Userid]

Zencompass, great questions. I've often wondered myself how DM didn't catch up with MM. One thing I've considered though, is the length of the block. This wasn't a short block by any means; it was very long. If the boys were already heading north riding their bikes when MM's mother saw them, that most likely would have given them a solid-enough head start for DM to be unable to catch up (she has to get her shoes on, obtain her bike from the garage/yard/where ever, get the bike going momentum-wise, etc.). Another thing I've considered, is that the boys/MM knew she was following, and they ran from her on purpose in order to either avoid going home or avoid her tagging along.

I agree though, that these three older teens had to have seen the 3 little boys entering the woods as they were exiting.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

hey there,
newish to this case. I saw the movie west memphis 3, but have not really read through the whole case on here.

The 3 teenagers that are mentioned being seen, the 1 w/m and 2 b/m's - have they ever been identified? Questioned? Does anyone know who these 3 are?

Are they made up?

 

[zencompass]

I wish I could find the list of vacant houses which Sgt. Allen was apparently given to search - as follows from Jivepuppi - thanks Martin David Hill !

From jivepuppi: "Sergeant Mike Allen, a veteran of five years on the force, attended the eight a.m. police briefing. He was assigned the task of obtaining a list of vacant houses from the utilities department and checking them out. Before getting the list he visited Maddux Elementary with Detective Diane Hester at 9:48 a.m. to talk with Jeff Sereal, a student who said he saw three boys head into a house. There are no notes of the follow-up. At 10:49 he picked up the utilities list from George Weatherspoon. There are no notes of the vacant houses he visited. The search efforts notes place him at Bill's Grill and at a pumping station on S. McAuley at unspecified times. At the Misskelley trial he explained how he came to the discovery site. "


I didn't see specific addresses in Sgt. Allen's testimony as to vacant house searches:

ALLEN: Uh - Inspector Gitchell advised uh - me to go around and check vacant houses in the area.

FOGLEMAN: Alright. And uh - was that in the neighborhood where the boys were?

ALLEN: Yes sir.

FOGLEMAN: Alright. If you would step down and refer your attention to state's exhibit 101. If you could step over to the side and show the jury the area that are shown in the photograph where you searched.

ALLEN: Uh - this area right here is 7th street, uh - mainly the vacant residents, which would be our northeast section of West Memphis, which is uh - this area to the city limits uh - which would be going east uh - the residential area is out towards Club road - out towards truck stops and then Broadway street, which would be south from here, which runs east and west, which is not shown in this aerial photo but uh -

FO-This right here is 7th street uh - here, I call this the northeast section of West Memphis - we're kind of in wards. Uh - this would be the northeast ward. This here's Broadway street. Uh - I concentrated my search in vacant houses in this area, east of 7th street. Uh - the area in which the boys lived in and uh - north of Broadway. This area here.FOGLEMAN- You can retake the stand. During your search, were you aware of other people searchingGLEMAN: Well, let me stop you. Let me put up the uh - state's exhibit 2 and ask if you can take this red marker and draw off the area where this search - your search was concentrated.
?

I recall seeing an interview with Jeff S. I think by Detective Hester but I need to search again. Also does anyone know for a fact that V.H. and A.H.'s house at 1502 E Barton was vacant that week? I'm still searching to find out which houses were vacant. Thanks in advance!