Evidence

[GoblinKeeper]

With all due respect, I would like to re-post Aynia's original post here:

I'm looking at this case (again ) and I'm wondering, if there was to be a new investigation, what would the actual evidence be? Is there anything concrete at all? (Except the Hobbs hair that can easily be dismissed with secondary transferring, unfortunately), what concrete evidence do we have?

I'm not counting on confessions or hearsay or something similar, because those can be easily ruled out.
IMHO there's nothing that could bring those 3 little boys justice: (
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I realize that the discussion of whether or not the JCB sighting is valid is important. The passage of time may have distorted the memory, or it may be a false memory. It happens. However, one should not lose sight of the focus of this thread, which is, what would the actual evidence be in a new investigation. Not whether it has merit or is bogus, but would it be considered as evidence. All evidence must be considered, weighed in against other evidence and then answer the question: can it be corroborated? If not, it must go into a category by itself or with other uncorroborated evidence. Then there is evidence corroborated by one or two witnesses, and still more corroborated by multiple witnesses. These have their own categories, obviously. Finally, there is the question, is it concrete? Is it absolutely unshakeable? Events or items such as a work timecard with timestamps (not written), the time school let out on a certain day; this is concrete evidence. This is what we are looking for. Other evidence must be placed aside until such time as comparison can prove, disprove, or leave as "up in the air."

Aynia is searching for answers, and unfortunately, a war of semantics, or he said/she said will not provide them. Callahan's is an excellent reference, but it does not have all of the records, as we have seen from internal evidence in the trial transcripts there. The JCB sighting and its validity could well be moved to another thread; the issue here is whether it is concrete evidence. In my opinion, it is evidence, however, it is uncorroborated evidence, and as such, must be weighed against other evidence that is either corroborated, or more believable. This does not say that I believe it or don't. I am still out with the jury on that statement.

Let us refocus our efforts on what evidence we believe would be considered, and whether or not it would it should go into one of those three categories. It may be that we find that piece of evidence that finally jumps out and helps us to define this crime although, as Cher Lockholmes has reminded us, we may not solve it to anyone's satisfaction. However, I am always hopeful. After all, the case of Maria Ridulph was solved after 50 years! I just hope it does not take another 30 before the solution to this case is discovered and brought to light.

So, all that being said, and I apologize, I get long winded, I know... some of the evidence I consider as worthy of consideration:

the partial denture found among TWH's possessions
the autopsy photographs (the bodies would be best evidence, but are unavailable and should remain that way)
work records for MDB, TWH, RTM
medical clinic record of JMB's visit
court records for SRC's witness testimony
WMPD police logs for inspection

There is more, much more, but I would start with this as it would establish a few baselines of where people were and when. The partial denture and photographs serve for comparison as to bite marks, wounds, and other injuries. From there I would move onto other evidence such as statements, testimonies, and notes for comparison with each other to see if a coherent timeline of the event could be pieced together.

I believe this is the heart of what Aynia is searching for. Unfortunately, this case is so muddied that derailing of any thread does not take long... I beg your indulgence in considering this post as serving to get us back on track, and discuss the evidence we feel should be considered, and not its merit or lack thereof.

Thank you. I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Userid]

Compassionate Reader, though we both agree on TH's guilt, we'll have to agree to disagree on the veracity of Ballard's affadavit, and that's fine But let me ask you something. Imagine that this case comes to trial and you are the prosecutor. Would you ask JCB, her sister, and her mother up on the witness stand? My concern is that TH's defense will put the focus on the inconsistencies/things that don't add up in their statements, and that might leave the jurors with the impression that it was concocted. I'd like to hear your take on that.

I would love to hear JCB on the witness stand -- in addition to TH and a plethora of other individuals -- but JCB especially. I guess that is the ultimate travesty in this case: we will never get these answers because the case will most likely never be re-opened. That is why it's important for sites/forums like this to continue the discussion.

As far as the thread itself, I don't mind a thread evolving -- especially over a prolonged period of time since this thread was created, and especially since there has been a huge lull in posting overall in this forum currently. There is nothing wrong, in my view, with a thread evolving and continuing the discussion.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

Mathew, you are looking at all of this very critically, that is definitely the right way of doing it IMO. Because we don't agree on this point underlines the exact reason why I am here.

There are so many situations, statements and god knows what else in this case that are open to interpretation, there is no possible way we are going to agree on them all. If we were in a courtroom, you were the district attorney, and I was the lawyer of the defendant, we would be able to cross-examine JCB and RC to clear these things up. As it stands, JCB's affidavit and many other things, hover in the ether, and we can discuss them till kingdom come, in the end It feels to me like we're flogging a dead horse.

On the evidence that is available at callahan (who knows if it is "all" there ?) it would be an illusion to think any of us can solve this case. My aim is to show how many questions are open, how shoddy the police investigation was, how other subjects in this case are so much more viable than the WM3, and that this case must be re-opened to answer all these questions

I absolutely agree with that Cher Lockhomes! Nothing seems 100% solid in this case. In the links that you've posted, it seems as if AH went with TH. However, in PH's pasdar declaration (I finally found it), PH states this:
'Terry had told me that he had Amanda with him from the time that I went to work until the time Terry came to pick me up. However, David and Bobbie Jacoby told me that Terry took Amanda to their home, that they played guitars for a while and that Terry left their house without Amanda and that the Jacobys watched Amanda for a while. Amanda also told me that Terry had dropped her off at the Jacobys and they watched Amanda while Terry was gone. I did not ever find out where Terry went when he left Amanda with David and Bobbie Jacoby. '
Everyone seems to change their story a little over time (probably not on purpose), and that makes it really hard to determine how everything happened on that fateful day in May 1993, JMO.

 

[zencompass]

The story changed because T.H. kept changing the story. P.H. repeated what she was told by T.H. As the old saying goes, "consider the source"!

I am curious to know exactly what all David and Bobbie Jacoby told P.H. especially since David Jacoby stated that most of what T.H. had said transpired with him during the evening of May 5th never happened!

 

[GoblinKeeper]

The story changed because T.H. kept changing the story. P.H. repeated what she was told by T.H. As the old saying goes, "consider the source"!

I am curious to know exactly what all David and Bobbie Jacoby told P.H. especially since David Jacoby stated that most of what T.H. had said transpired with him during the evening of May 5th never happened!

You and me, both, zen... It would be interesting, especially in light of the fact that he and PH were friends before he met TH through her. I would think his loyalties would lie more with her than with him.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Unfortunately, any statement made by BJ is not among the items on Cally's. As to putting JCB on the stand, I wouldn't hesitate to do so because I consider her method of fixing the time of her sighting to be more credible than the other witnesses who relied on television shows and/or some vague, unnamed method of fixing the time. No one mentioned looking at a watch. Now, to get back on track. Let's look at the evidence list GK presented:

"the partial denture found among TWH's possessions
the autopsy photographs (the bodies would be best evidence, but are unavailable and should remain that way)
work records for MDB, TWH, RTM
medical clinic record of JMB's visit
court records for SRC's witness testimony
WMPD police logs for inspection"

IMO, the work of Dr. Cowart on the partial denture is impeccable. I hope that it will, some day soon, be certified by a forensic odontologist. I would like to see the partials tested for SB's DNA.

I'm not sure how much more we can learn from the autopsy photos, but, especially if someone new joins in this effort, they should be considered.

I'm not sure who MDB is, but the work records of TWH and RTM should definitely be examined and verified, especially since a Commercial Appeal article called into question TWH's attendance at work on May 5, 1993. I have been told that RTM's trucker's log was examined and it cleared him. However, that log is not among the documents on Cally's either.

Yes, JMB's clinic visit could be verified easily, I would think. It might require obtaining his consent, but I feel sure that he would give it.

Yes, SRC's testimony as a witness of a hit-and-run (IIRC) could be verified, I would think. Wouldn't that be public record?

Of course, the wmpd police dispatch logs are available on Cally's, but I'm not sure how useful they are. MK's testimony re: "Mr. Bojangles" contradicts them as to time. I simply don't trust their accuracy. However, they are available:

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/logs.html

 

[Userid]

The story changed because T.H. kept changing the story. P.H. repeated what she was told by T.H. As the old saying goes, "consider the source"!

I am curious to know exactly what all David and Bobbie Jacoby told P.H. especially since David Jacoby stated that most of what T.H. had said transpired with him during the evening of May 5th never happened!

Are you inferring that you believe both DJ and BJ are involved in a coverup for TH?

What would BJ have to gain for covering up for her husband's friend? Why would she risk not only herself, but her husband sticking both their necks on the line?

 

[GoblinKeeper]

Unfortunately, any statement made by BJ is not among the items on Cally's. As to putting JCB on the stand, I wouldn't hesitate to do so because I consider her method of fixing the time of her sighting to be more credible than the other witnesses who relied on television shows and/or some vague, unnamed method of fixing the time. No one mentioned looking at a watch. Now, to get back on track. Let's look at the evidence list GK presented:

"the partial denture found among TWH's possessions
the autopsy photographs (the bodies would be best evidence, but are unavailable and should remain that way)
work records for MDB, TWH, RTM
medical clinic record of JMB's visit
court records for SRC's witness testimony
WMPD police logs for inspection"

IMO, the work of Dr. Cowart on the partial denture is impeccable. I hope that it will, some day soon, be certified by a forensic odontologist. I would like to see the partials tested for SB's DNA.

I'm not sure how much more we can learn from the autopsy photos, but, especially if someone new joins in this effort, they should be considered.

I'm not sure who MDB is, but the work records of TWH and RTM should definitely be examined and verified, especially since a Commercial Appeal article called into question TWH's attendance at work on May 5, 1993. I have been told that RTM's trucker's log was examined and it cleared him. However, that log is not among the documents on Cally's either.

Yes, JMB's clinic visit could be verified easily, I would think. It might require obtaining his consent, but I feel sure that he would give it.

Yes, SRC's testimony as a witness of a hit-and-run (IIRC) could be verified, I would think. Wouldn't that be public record?

Of course, the wmpd police dispatch logs are available on Cally's, but I'm not sure how useful they are. MK's testimony re: "Mr. Bojangles" contradicts them as to time. I simply don't trust their accuracy. However, they are available:

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/logs.html

Hi, CR! Just a quick note.... MDB is Melissa DeFir Byers. Sorry, I should have been clearer on that point. What I'd like to see is the original police logs, and not just copies. I've noticed a lot of anomalies on the copies, and would really like to see the originals, although they seem to be reluctant to share them. Perhaps by now, like so much else, they no longer exist. Excellent post, CR, thank you so much!

 

[GoblinKeeper]

Are you inferring that you believe both DJ and BJ are involved in a coverup for TH?

What would BJ have to gain for covering up for her husband's friend? Why would she risk not only herself, but her husband sticking both their necks on the line?

Hi Userid, hope you're doing well. I'm not quite sure I read zencompass' post like you did. In my reading, there was no inference of a coverup involving DJ and BJ (or as TWH so nicely put it, JaBobby Cobie). I believe zen is curious as to what was said to PH in light of the fact that DJ didn't corroborate TH's statements. For that matter, considering the many conflicting statements concerning TH with many of his alibi witnesses, I'd like to know what he told PH, and what DJ and BJ told her as well. It would be interesting to see if she knew almost from the beginning of the conflicting stories and that was why she and her family became suspicious of TH so quickly.

Of course, I could be wrong, but that was my take on zencompass' statement as originally posited. Have a great weekend, Userid!

 

[Userid]

Hi GK, you too. I guess my point is, why wouldn't DJ and BJ tell PH the exact truth about what happened that day, unless they were covering up for TH? This would be the only reason they would tell her something different other than the truth.

 

[GoblinKeeper]

Hi again, Userid. I personally believe that both DJ and BJ told PH the truth. That would explain why the Hicks family and PH were so quick to suspect TH in the first place. Notice his statements to co-workers that they suspected him from the beginning. So if TH told her that he was looking all the time, and couldn't find him, but BJ and DJ said he was over playing guitar, in and out, and leaving AH with BJ while he and DJ drove around for 15-20 minutes...

It's my opinion that's the way it went down, but no one who wasn't there can't know for certain. At any rate, have a great weekend!

 

[zencompass]

Hi everyone,
Yes I believe that B.J. and D.J. would have told the truth to P.H. They had, after all, been friends for years. D.J. and B.J. must have been shocked and confused when they initially heard T.H. telling untruths of times and places he said he was with D.J. I wonder when it finally clicked to them that T.H. was using them and lying about times and places to create the alibi he did not have. Good for D.J. for speaking up and speaking the truth that he was not at the places and times that T.H. lied about. He probably felt so hurt that T.H. would try to use him that way because D.J. probably thought of him as a good friend.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

If DJ and BJ told PH the truth that AH was with them until TH picked up AH just prior to going to PH's job to pick her up, that means that JCB's statement is at least partially false. After all, AH can't be both on TH's driveway and at DJ's house at the same time.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

If DJ and BJ told PH the truth that AH was with them until TH picked up AH just prior to going to PH's job to pick her up, that means that JCB's statement is at least partially false. After all, AH can't be both on TH's driveway and at DJ's house at the same time.

LM, once again, that depends on which statement by DJ you want to believe. TH was in and out the Jacoby's at least three times before he picked PH up. Maybe he took AH with him after playing guitars, and took her back when he drove round the block for the first time. DJ is all over the place about this, and about seeing SB, CB, and MM behind TH.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

As I've stated before, IMO, the amount of time between 6 pm and 9 pm that AH was not w/DJ and BJ was probably no more than 15 minutes. That could be when JCB saw her in the driveway. Because of the short amount of time, DJ and BJ possibly got confused and believed AH was with them the entire time. That may have been TH's intention - to confuse the situation. I see no real conflict here. TH left DJ's at about 6 pm, took AH, got home, saw the boys, possibly saw SB eating some green beans, went back to DJ's w/AH in tow, asked DJ to help him look one more time (the second "drive around"), dropped DJ and AH back at DJ's, saying he wanted to look "one more place" and didn't return until he was ready to pick up PH. Then, he picked up AH, went to get PH, etc.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

I must say, after looking at a lot of the crime lab documents, I am not surprised that a lot of things got lost, mixed up. The evidence submission sheets with descriptions like "a pair of blue pants" or " a pullover shirt" often no size, no colour, no basic description. Not good enough really.

 

[Userid]

Hi again, Userid. I personally believe that both DJ and BJ told PH the truth. That would explain why the Hicks family and PH were so quick to suspect TH in the first place. Notice his statements to co-workers that they suspected him from the beginning. So if TH told her that he was looking all the time, and couldn't find him, but BJ and DJ said he was over playing guitar, in and out, and leaving AH with BJ while he and DJ drove around for 15-20 minutes...

It's my opinion that's the way it went down, but no one who wasn't there can't know for certain. At any rate, have a great weekend!

Me too -- and this is why the Ballard sighting is iffy, in that it directly contradicts this and puts AH with TH.

PH and her family didn't suspect TH initially -- this came years, if not a decade later, correct?

 

[Userid]

If DJ and BJ told PH the truth that AH was with them until TH picked up AH just prior to going to PH's job to pick her up, that means that JCB's statement is at least partially false. After all, AH can't be both on TH's driveway and at DJ's house at the same time.

Exactly!

 

[Userid]

LM, once again, that depends on which statement by DJ you want to believe. TH was in and out the Jacoby's at least three times before he picked PH up. Maybe he took AH with him after playing guitars, and took her back when he drove round the block for the first time. DJ is all over the place about this, and about seeing SB, CB, and MM behind TH.

As I've stated before, IMO, the amount of time between 6 pm and 9 pm that AH was not w/DJ and BJ was probably no more than 15 minutes. That could be when JCB saw her in the driveway. Because of the short amount of time, DJ and BJ possibly got confused and believed AH was with them the entire time. That may have been TH's intention - to confuse the situation. I see no real conflict here. TH left DJ's at about 6 pm, took AH, got home, saw the boys, possibly saw SB eating some green beans, went back to DJ's w/AH in tow, asked DJ to help him look one more time (the second "drive around"), dropped DJ and AH back at DJ's, saying he wanted to look "one more place" and didn't return until he was ready to pick up PH. Then, he picked up AH, went to get PH, etc.

This seems like you're bending over backwards for the narrative to fit your logic. All due respect, but this makes no sense to me. If TH left AH there, then picked her up, then dropped her off again (there is absolutely no evidence of this, but I digress), that would mean the following scenario:

TH dropped AH off at DJ's and went looking for the boys.
Then, he returned unsuccessfully, and for God knows why, decided to pick AH up. (I have a major problem with this thought)
Then, with her in his possession, found the boys. (the JCB sighting).
Then, TH again dropped AH off at DJ's to finish the crime.

This is what you're supposing, in so many words. Problem here is, no matter which way you slice it, the initial attack would have had to occur with AH present. The boys would have had to have been subdued in some way, with AH there, in order for TH to have the ability to again drop AH back off at DJ's.

I guess the bottom line is this: there is absolutely no reason for TH to pick AH up, once he leaves initially to search for the boys -- and not only that, but picking her up and having her in his possession would have made successfully perpetrating this crime exponentially harder for him.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Let me make my position clearer. TH and AH left DJ's house, according to DJ, sometime in the 6:15 pm to 6:30 pm time frame. They go home. AH immediately gets on her tricycle and begins to ride around in the driveway. TH goes inside, finds SB (maybe all three) and tells him to stay put. At this point (of course, all of this is speculation), either SB begs TH for a little more time and he consents or SB bolts away from the table (I think this is when he ate the green beans), grabs his bike and takes off, the others close behind. TH yells at him to come back. This would jive with the JCB statement. Then, TH (IMO, knowing full well where the boys are going) goes back to DJ's (now it's about 6:40 pm) and asks DJ to help him look. This was the first time they (DJ & TH) drove around the neighborhood for about 10 - 15 minutes. (Again, IMO, this was done by TH to establish an alibi. I believe that, after TH dropped DJ back at his house [with AH, IMO, although DJ is unsure, as I believe was TH's intent] he [TH] went to the "clubhouse" [that he possibly built for the boys], found and attacked the boys and left them, believing them to be dead, in a manhole.) According to the telephone interview w/police, this was the only time DJ drove around w/TH. However, in his declaration, done under oath about a month after the telephone interview, there was a second driving search, which, IMO, could have occurred sometime in the 8 pm to 9 pm time frame, and which, once again, could have been an attempt on the part of TH to establish an alibi. I believe that, at approximately 9 pm, TH collected AH from DJ and BJ and went to pick up PH at Catfish Island. Of course, this is my theory and opinion.