Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors: Ann Rule's Crime Files

[Inparadise]

so the the theory is that dina and her twin could have lain in wait?

how can we have so many knot tiers ? even a tug boat captain....I say it took two people and someone had a gun,

I say she tried to get away and hide but they got her...hence her muddy feet.

Hence the screams/cries for HELP that were heard by neighbors........

 

[Nom de plume]

Hence the screams/cries for HELP that were heard by neighbors........

This has probably been mentioned before but I haven't come across it in reading old posts here.

The one thing that makes sense to me regarding the railing and lack of smudging/dust/dirt removal. What if RZ never went over that railing? Could the killer(s?) have had her in the kill room taped to the chair, looking on her computer/cell phone VM/etc., writing on the door, preparing to kill her, and somehow RZ escaped? She runs through the house and out to the courtyard. She screams as the killer(s?) catch(es?) up to her, hits her in the head, drags her over by the balcony, and does a "reverse" hanging? Maybe one killer in the courtyard, and one in the kill room?

To me it explains her muddy feet, yet no mud in the house, the wounds on her back, but not on her arms, and the miminal disturbance to the dirt/dust on the railing. If one killer threw the rope up and over the balcony, the other was there to catch it and tie it to the bed, it could have rubbed back and forth across the railing a bit. It might also explain why her feet were only a couple feet off the ground instead of many. There would be no need for such exact measuring of the rope if she were nealing (hog tied) on the table, the rope goes up, gets tied off to the bed, and then the leg gets kicked out from under the table. The rope connecting her legs and arms gets cut after the hanging. Kicking the table out from under her could have caused the bed to move at that time.

Probably 1000 holes in my theory, but it just doesn't make sense that she went over that railing in any fashion, at least to me.

 

[time]

This has probably been mentioned before but I haven't come across it in reading old posts here.

The one thing that makes sense to me regarding the railing and lack of smudging/dust/dirt removal. What if RZ never went over that railing? Could the killer(s?) have had her in the kill room taped to the chair, looking on her computer/cell phone VM/etc., writing on the door, preparing to kill her, and somehow RZ escaped? She runs through the house and out to the courtyard. She screams as the killer(s?) catch(es?) up to her, hits her in the head, drags her over by the balcony, and does a "reverse" hanging? Maybe one killer in the courtyard, and one in the kill room?

To me it explains her muddy feet, yet no mud in the house, the wounds on her back, but not on her arms, and the miminal disturbance to the dirt/dust on the railing. If one killer threw the rope up and over the balcony, the other was there to catch it and tie it to the bed, it could have rubbed back and forth across the railing a bit. It might also explain why her feet were only a couple feet off the ground instead of many. There would be no need for such exact measuring of the rope if she were nealing (hog tied) on the table, the rope goes up, gets tied off to the bed, and then the leg gets kicked out from under the table. The rope connecting her legs and arms gets cut after the hanging. Kicking the table out from under her could have caused the bed to move at that time.

Probably 1000 holes in my theory, but it just doesn't make sense that she went over that railing in any fashion, at least to me.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I've always wondered if she was hung from below. Ann Rule seems to question whether she went over the balcony also. Perhaps in your scenario, Rebecca also suffered the blunt force head trauma as someone was chasing her? Kicking the table out from under her could have weakened the leg.

 

[Carioca]

In my scenario, she was hit on the head several times with the red dog bone while legs taped to "a" chair.
The leg on the table was already broken months before July 12. It didn't happen when AS dragged the table. I won't be supplying a link so can place that info into factoid column :-o

 

[Inparadise]

In my scenario, she was hit on the head several times with the red dog bone while legs taped to "a" chair.
The leg on the table was already broken months before July 12. It didn't happen when AS dragged the table. I won't be supplying a link so can place that info into factoid column :-o

I seem to recall that about the table leg as well........can't remember where though.

 

[*Lash*]

I'm sure I am not the first or last to attempt a test on my cellphone w/my battery removed. FWIW, here are the results.

- My spouse called my phone and left a VM at 1:00pm.
- I powered up my phone at 1:15pm and a VM appeared.
- My phone showed a VM with the time of 1:15pm.
- The VM mirrored the time the phone was powered on.
- When I retrieved the VM, I was the given the actual time it was left, 1:00pm.
- I reviewed my phone bill. The VM is the only detail that appears, 1:15pm.
- My phone bill does not show an incoming call at 1:00pm.
- I reviewed the phone bill of my spouse. An outgoing call appears at 1:00pm.

In my opinion, Rebecca's phone had to be powered off when Jonah allegedly called her at 11:48pm or 12:30am since the incoming call does not appear on her bill. However, the outgoing call should appear on Jonah's bill. I have a smartphone, but not a Samsung, I do not know how Rebecca's actual cellphone would display the missed call/VM. If the outgoing call does not show on Jonah's phone bill, did he even call? Someone else could have called Rebecca. Which would mean LE would need to identify the caller. If the outgoing call does not appear on Jonah's or Dina's records then there are at least two other people who need their phone bills reviewed.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

I re-read Ann Rule's book. Does anyone know whether the video called "The Housemaid" was actually found at the Spreckels mansion and taken by LE?

We're watching the movie right now and just saw the part where the mother of the wife pushes the housemaid over the second story balcony and the housemaid hangs onto a chandelier, swinging back and forth, but ends up falling to the first floor foyer, though she doesn't die but breaks her neck. I find it eerily coincidental that this sounds like what happened to Max except Max was left braindead.

I skipped to the end, and the housemaid then jumps off the second story balcony and hangs herself with a noose from the chandelier AND somehow she also set herself on fire! Apart from the setting Becky on fire and the fact that Becky's hands and ankles were bound and Becky was nude, the entire scenario is similar to what happened to Becky and as bizarre.

If this video was found at the mansion after Becky's death, wow, the murderer(s) must have planted it there to paint an ugly, false picture of a Becky and to plant a suicide motive.

Also, IMO if the video was planted, then it is no coincidence that Max fell off the second story balcony swinging off the chandelier.

One coincidence in the movie to the actual hanging of Becky may be just coincidence. But two with someone pushed and hanging for dear life off a chandelier -- just as Max did -- is no coincidence. This leads me to believe that the murderers who killed Becky shoved Max to his death first.

We know that Dina has been claiming assault and murder of Max from the start. Could it be that the real reason Dina was absent the entire Monday morning into late afternoon is that she was sneaking about the Spreckels mansion and committed the egregious assault upon her own son in order to then blame and pull off a murder of Becky?

This is what it appears to me if the video was planted. I would not have thought Dina capable of hurting her own child, but after watching this analogous video -- if it was planted -- I am thinking in her drunken state, and the hate and jealousy she had of Becky, she could have done it. Maybe that's why Dina refuses to let Max's accident rest, and insists it was assault and murder. Maybe because she was the perpetrator? Just thinking aloud.

I have speculated on this earlier.... but it gets removed by the moderators or some of it does. DS could have tried to harm MS while RZ was in charge.... so that JS would lose interest in RZ..... when it failed horrendously DS could have then completely lost it and killed RZ....

The video is shocking....it has to be linked.... who watches Korean vidoes... with kids?

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

I'm sure I am not the first or last to attempt a test on my cellphone w/my battery removed. FWIW, here are the results.

- My spouse called my phone and left a VM at 1:00pm.
- I powered up my phone at 1:15pm and a VM appeared.
- My phone showed a VM with the time of 1:15pm.
- The VM mirrored the time the phone was powered on.
- When I retrieved the VM, I was the given the actual time it was left, 1:00pm.
- I reviewed my phone bill. The VM is the only detail that appears, 1:15pm.
- My phone bill does not show an incoming call at 1:00pm.
- I reviewed the phone bill of my spouse. An outgoing call appears at 1:00pm.

In my opinion, Rebecca's phone had to be powered off when Jonah allegedly called her at 11:48pm or 12:30am since the incoming call does not appear on her bill. However, the outgoing call should appear on Jonah's bill. I have a smartphone, but not a Samsung, I do not know how Rebecca's actual cellphone would display the missed call/VM. If the outgoing call does not show on Jonah's phone bill, did he even call? Someone else could have called Rebecca. Which would mean LE would need to identify the caller. If the outgoing call does not appear on Jonah's or Dina's records then there are at least two other people who need their phone bills reviewed.

hmmmm so Nina could be correct in when she said she sent the text to RZ.... but RZ or someone else didn't turn the phone back on until when it shows on RZ's bill...... interesting.... try this with a text... please

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

This maybe a pretty big IF, but this South Korean film is not that easily found, and unless it is a "rental" from some specialized Coronado video store you would not simply stumble on it everywhere. I know of one internet store that sells it, but again it is not a film that will be simply out there in quanity, and I would think if such a film was found in the mansion it could easily be traced if LE bothered, but then again ...

Just checked "Redbox" locations in Coronado and it is not stocked, but then if there was a South Korean grocery in the city (5 listed on internet), they might have it if they have a video rental/sales desk.

Amazing what continues to turn up, and thanks Bourne..

I believe this title is available on Netflix. I am just watching it now.

 

[inthedark14]

I believe this title is available on Netflix. I am just watching it now.

Hi all...I saw it on the Amazon thing that works like Netflix as well. Not sure what it's called....but it works like Netflix, but goes through your prime account and you can use it on your kindle.

 

[time]

hmmmm so Nina could be correct in when she said she sent the text to RZ.... but RZ or someone else didn't turn the phone back on until when it shows on RZ's bill...... interesting.... try this with a text... please

I thought Lash was referring to the VM retrieval related to Jonah's call?

Wasn't Nina supposed timing before the last text or call with Mary? Or in very close proximity?

 

[Carioca]

I thought Lash was referring to the VM retrieval related to Jonah's call?

Wasn't Nina supposed timing before the last text or call with Mary? Or in very close proximity?

Here's the sequence on RZ's phone bill. If Nina had sent the text at 9:41PM as she claims and as shown on her phone bill, RZ would have received it between her texts with Mary, right?

9:40PM Rebecca text Mary
9:42PM Rebecca text Mary
9:44PM Mary text Rebecca
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:52PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Rebecca text Mary
10:41PM Nina text Rebecca

 

[K_Z]

All the theories of how Rebecca came to be hanging are interesting.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that the pattern of neck muscle tearing, with abundant hemorrhage within the muscles (described at length on the AR) persuades me that she did, indeed, suffer a "long drop", and that her heart was beating when the muscles were torn. This may have been preceded by a partial strangulation and/ or stunning blows to the head.

I just don't see any way that the particular pattern of neck muscle tearing with hemorrhage could be achieved by a "hoisting from below", or achieved if she was already dead (heart in asystole). Her left SCM was torn nearly in half-- that is very significant damage, and muscles don't tear easily like that (from strangulation, for example). And the infrahyoid muscles were also torn-- those are in a different "plane" than the SCM muscles, and lie deeper in the neck structures. There are many hangings in the literature described where the cervical vertebrae were not dislocated or broken. (Some were judicial hangings.)

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but I do have a lot of health care experience, and in particular, experience with structures of the neck and larynx. I can't find any information about strangulation or garroting, or posthumous hanging, that would produce the pattern of torn muscles and hemorrhage that Rebecca suffered. The only explanation that I have found in my research is that her pattern of damage is consistent with a long drop hanging. And the oral and facial petechiae described on the AR could just as easily been from the hanging (she suffered strangulation death, as opposed to a hangman's fracture death), as from a partial strangulation preceding the hanging.

It's my opinion that someone helped her over the railing-- as in, murdered her. I believe her heart was beating when that happened. Nothing for me adds up to a suicidal hanging, but the autopsy evidence is persuasive to me that she was indeed, hanged with a long drop.

 

[time]

Here's the sequence on RZ's phone bill. If Nina had sent the text at 9:41PM as she claims and as shown on her phone bill, RZ would have received it between her texts with Mary, right?

9:40PM Rebecca text Mary
9:42PM Rebecca text Mary
9:44PM Mary text Rebecca
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:52PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Rebecca text Mary
10:41PM Nina text Rebecca

Thanks for looking that up! I think the real time is 10:41 for several reasons... timing sequence of calls/test, that CA and AZ are on the same time, and because it doesn't make sense that Nina headed over to the mansion at 9:45 - plus, timing of 9:41 vs 10:41. No way Rebecca's phone was off at 9:41, a text would have been received and (probably) Rebecca would have mentioned it to Mary?

 

[Inparadise]

All the theories of how Rebecca came to be hanging are interesting.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that the pattern of neck muscle tearing, with abundant hemorrhage within the muscles (described at length on the AR) persuades me that she did, indeed, suffer a "long drop", and that her heart was beating when the muscles were torn. This may have been preceded by a partial strangulation and/ or stunning blows to the head.

I just don't see any way that the particular pattern of neck muscle tearing with hemorrhage could be achieved by a "hoisting from below", or achieved if she was already dead (heart in asystole). Her left SCM was torn nearly in half-- that is very significant damage, and muscles don't tear easily like that (from strangulation, for example). And the infrahyoid muscles were also torn-- those are in a different "plane" than the SCM muscles, and lie deeper in the neck structures. There are many hangings in the literature described where the cervical vertebrae were not dislocated or broken. (Some were judicial hangings.)

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but I do have a lot of health care experience, and in particular, experience with structures of the neck and larynx. I can't find any information about strangulation or garroting, or posthumous hanging, that would produce the pattern of torn muscles and hemorrhage that Rebecca suffered. The only explanation that I have found in my research is that her pattern of damage is consistent with a long drop hanging. And the oral and facial petechiae described on the AR could just as easily been from the hanging (she suffered strangulation death, as opposed to a hangman's fracture death), as from a partial strangulation preceding the hanging.

It's my opinion that someone helped her over the railing-- as in, murdered her. I believe her heart was beating when that happened. Nothing for me adds up to a suicidal hanging, but the autopsy evidence is persuasive to me that she was indeed, hanged with a long drop.

But what about the bed only moving 7 inches? That doesn't really fit with a long drop over the balcony.......perhaps she was hung somewhere else, and then the "hanging room" was staged?

 

[time]

All the theories of how Rebecca came to be hanging are interesting.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that the pattern of neck muscle tearing, with abundant hemorrhage within the muscles (described at length on the AR) persuades me that she did, indeed, suffer a "long drop", and that her heart was beating when the muscles were torn. This may have been preceded by a partial strangulation and/ or stunning blows to the head.

I just don't see any way that the particular pattern of neck muscle tearing with hemorrhage could be achieved by a "hoisting from below", or achieved if she was already dead (heart in asystole). Her left SCM was torn nearly in half-- that is very significant damage, and muscles don't tear easily like that (from strangulation, for example). And the infrahyoid muscles were also torn-- those are in a different "plane" than the SCM muscles, and lie deeper in the neck structures. There are many hangings in the literature described where the cervical vertebrae were not dislocated or broken. (Some were judicial hangings.)

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but I do have a lot of health care experience, and in particular, experience with structures of the neck and larynx. I can't find any information about strangulation or garroting, or posthumous hanging, that would produce the pattern of torn muscles and hemorrhage that Rebecca suffered. The only explanation that I have found in my research is that her pattern of damage is consistent with a long drop hanging. And the oral and facial petechiae described on the AR could just as easily been from the hanging (she suffered strangulation death, as opposed to a hangman's fracture death), as from a partial strangulation preceding the hanging.

It's my opinion that someone helped her over the railing-- as in, murdered her. I believe her heart was beating when that happened. Nothing for me adds up to a suicidal hanging, but the autopsy evidence is persuasive to me that she was indeed, hanged with a long drop.

K_Z, I remember you saying this before. How long of a drop would it need to be to be consistent with the findings, i.e., could she have dropped from the inside balcony or from something higher outside. Or is the main point that it was a drop? Sorry, I'm fishing. Do you think the evidence on the balcony, dust, footprints, etc, supports her going over.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Here's the sequence on RZ's phone bill. If Nina had sent the text at 9:41PM as she claims and as shown on her phone bill, RZ would have received it between her texts with Mary, right?

9:40PM Rebecca text Mary
9:42PM Rebecca text Mary
9:44PM Mary text Rebecca
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:48PM Rebecca text Mary
9:52PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Mary text Rebecca
9:53PM Rebecca text Mary
10:41PM Nina text Rebecca

Very interesting... at 9:41... what happens with a text if essentially the phone is busy with other texts? I have never had more than one person try to text me at the same time.... I have a Samsung by the way.... I wonder what happens... if there is a tight exchange of data ....

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

All the theories of how Rebecca came to be hanging are interesting.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that the pattern of neck muscle tearing, with abundant hemorrhage within the muscles (described at length on the AR) persuades me that she did, indeed, suffer a "long drop", and that her heart was beating when the muscles were torn. This may have been preceded by a partial strangulation and/ or stunning blows to the head.

I just don't see any way that the particular pattern of neck muscle tearing with hemorrhage could be achieved by a "hoisting from below", or achieved if she was already dead (heart in asystole). Her left SCM was torn nearly in half-- that is very significant damage, and muscles don't tear easily like that (from strangulation, for example). And the infrahyoid muscles were also torn-- those are in a different "plane" than the SCM muscles, and lie deeper in the neck structures. There are many hangings in the literature described where the cervical vertebrae were not dislocated or broken. (Some were judicial hangings.)

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but I do have a lot of health care experience, and in particular, experience with structures of the neck and larynx. I can't find any information about strangulation or garroting, or posthumous hanging, that would produce the pattern of torn muscles and hemorrhage that Rebecca suffered. The only explanation that I have found in my research is that her pattern of damage is consistent with a long drop hanging. And the oral and facial petechiae described on the AR could just as easily been from the hanging (she suffered strangulation death, as opposed to a hangman's fracture death), as from a partial strangulation preceding the hanging.

It's my opinion that someone helped her over the railing-- as in, murdered her. I believe her heart was beating when that happened. Nothing for me adds up to a suicidal hanging, but the autopsy evidence is persuasive to me that she was indeed, hanged with a long drop.

You would think a long drop would result in relatively equal damage on each side? Why the damage only on the left side.... the length of the drop would mean the body would not have had time to straighten out completely so the left side of her neck gets the full yank of the rope?

 

[inthedark14]

All the theories of how Rebecca came to be hanging are interesting.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that the pattern of neck muscle tearing, with abundant hemorrhage within the muscles (described at length on the AR) persuades me that she did, indeed, suffer a "long drop", and that her heart was beating when the muscles were torn. This may have been preceded by a partial strangulation and/ or stunning blows to the head.

I just don't see any way that the particular pattern of neck muscle tearing with hemorrhage could be achieved by a "hoisting from below", or achieved if she was already dead (heart in asystole). Her left SCM was torn nearly in half-- that is very significant damage, and muscles don't tear easily like that (from strangulation, for example). And the infrahyoid muscles were also torn-- those are in a different "plane" than the SCM muscles, and lie deeper in the neck structures. There are many hangings in the literature described where the cervical vertebrae were not dislocated or broken. (Some were judicial hangings.)

I'm not a forensic pathologist, but I do have a lot of health care experience, and in particular, experience with structures of the neck and larynx. I can't find any information about strangulation or garroting, or posthumous hanging, that would produce the pattern of torn muscles and hemorrhage that Rebecca suffered. The only explanation that I have found in my research is that her pattern of damage is consistent with a long drop hanging. And the oral and facial petechiae described on the AR could just as easily been from the hanging (she suffered strangulation death, as opposed to a hangman's fracture death), as from a partial strangulation preceding the hanging.

It's my opinion that someone helped her over the railing-- as in, murdered her. I believe her heart was beating when that happened. Nothing for me adds up to a suicidal hanging, but the autopsy evidence is persuasive to me that she was indeed, hanged with a long drop.

Hi KZ, thank you for explaining those injuries to layman like myself. The medical stuff is above and beyond me. When I read this information I think about the way too small pattern of disturbed dust where her body went over. This has been (one of the many) things that bothers me to no end. Do we know the length of that balcony, as to from the railing to the door? How does that "unknown" footprint that overlapped others work? For example, perhaps someone stood sideways to the door, their other foot inside the door holding the weight of RZ to "help" her over the side? In that case, I can see the very small dust disturbance on the railing if someone was holding, or balancing RZ. My issue with it, the small eleven inch IIRC dust disturbance, would have been much more even though RZ was a tiny little fit person. Just because of the weight distribution when anyone's flesh is pressed against anything. (i.e. if she were to press her torso against the rail to propel herself over). However, if someone where to hold her briefly over the edge, her body briefly touching it and her weight distributed by someone holding her, it would have possibly made such a small mark. I've tried it on my own balcony, even had a my very tiny lil niece lean on our balcony and her size zero body made a mark of around 17+ inches when she leaned her entire weight on the railing, there aren't many bones in between your ribs and your hips, the flesh presses down and compresses across the surface it's on. (I held her around the lower hips the whole time, but she placed her tummy on the rail and bent...not super safe, I'll admit, but I needed someone that thin to see if it would work, she is fine, of course, and loved the experiment). I guess what I don't understand is how RZ could have made such a small impression on the dust on the railing. Even being so small herself. It's just not possible to press her flesh hard enough to propel herself without the use of her arms and legs and leave only that small amount of disturbed dust.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Hi KZ, thank you for explaining those injuries to layman like myself. The medical stuff is above and beyond me. When I read this information I think about the way too small pattern of disturbed dust where her body went over. This has been (one of the many) things that bothers me to no end. Do we know the length of that balcony, as to from the railing to the door? How does that "unknown" footprint that overlapped others work? For example, perhaps someone stood sideways to the door, their other foot inside the door holding the weight of RZ to "help" her over the side? In that case, I can see the very small dust disturbance on the railing if someone was holding, or balancing RZ. My issue with it, the small eleven inch IIRC dust disturbance, would have been much more even though RZ was a tiny little fit person. Just because of the weight distribution when anyone's flesh is pressed against anything. (i.e. if she were to press her torso against the rail to propel herself over). However, if someone where to hold her briefly over the edge, her body briefly touching it and her weight distributed by someone holding her, it would have possibly made such a small mark. I've tried it on my own balcony, even had a my very tiny lil niece lean on our balcony and her size zero body made a mark of around 17+ inches when she leaned her entire weight on the railing, there aren't many bones in between your ribs and your hips, the flesh presses down and compresses across the surface it's on. (I held her around the lower hips the whole time, but she placed her tummy on the rail and bent...not super safe, I'll admit, but I needed someone that thin to see if it would work, she is fine, of course, and loved the experiment). I guess what I don't understand is how RZ could have made such a small impression on the dust on the railing. Even being so small herself. It's just not possible to press her flesh hard enough to propel herself without the use of her arms and legs and leave only that small amount of disturbed dust.

Thank you for the experiment..... and the dust is just a few spots over the 11 inches... (at most).... ALL of the dust should have been removed if she bent herself over it and slid over... glaringly obvious.... and LE thinks she got over that balcony, in the dark, t-shirt choking her, rope around her neck and hair, feet tied tight together and hands tied.. I don't know .... is this woman
strong enough to climb onto the top of the railing with feet tied.... reach out and support herself against the wall the in one swift movement... somehow put her hands in the rope behind her back and leap? I have gone over this in my head so many times..... she might be able to manage it if she stood on the chair.... but there would be skid marks from the legs on the chair in the grit on that balcony floor..

What if she dropped the rope over...and then went downstairs... tied herself up and stood on the table... knowing the leg was broken.... and all she had to do was wiggle and it would snap from underneath her? I understand there was information that the leg was already broken on the table when AS says he used it to cut her down?