FL FL - Collier Co, WhtFem 235UFFL, 45-70, in shallow grave, Jun'78

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Unsolved said:
Really a long shot here, but I wonder if they have already checked Marjorie Wilson, missing from Deltona, FL in Dec. 1976?

NamUs MP3007 Missing Person Case

The Doe Network: Case File 2871DFFL

FL - FL - Marjorie Wilson, 66, Deltona, 4 December 1976

Again I do know it's a long shot, and I have three problems with even bringing it here (but I'm going to have to anyway so I can sleep tonight LOL):

1) The Lost & The Found link above mentions obese, and Marjorie was only 112 pounds - BUT NamUS says "cannot estimate weight" (so ?)

2) Marjorie listed as 5' 2" this person estimated 5' 4"

3) would someone missing in 1976 be consistent with their find in 1978 (tissue, etc.) OR could the lime have affected that?

Maps show Big Cypress Reserve is only about 1.5 hour drive from Deltona.

Here's a (poor) side by side I tried to do. Any chance?

2dweneo.jpg
Click to expand...
Looks pretty good to me And she is from Florida!
 
Unsolved said:
Really a long shot here, but I wonder if they have already checked Marjorie Wilson, missing from Deltona, FL in Dec. 1976?

NamUs MP3007 Missing Person Case

The Doe Network: Case File 2871DFFL

FL - FL - Marjorie Wilson, 66, Deltona, 4 December 1976

Again I do know it's a long shot, and I have three problems with even bringing it here (but I'm going to have to anyway so I can sleep tonight LOL):

1) The Lost & The Found link above mentions obese, and Marjorie was only 112 pounds - BUT NamUS says "cannot estimate weight" (so ?)

2) Marjorie listed as 5' 2" this person estimated 5' 4"

3) would someone missing in 1976 be consistent with their find in 1978 (tissue, etc.) OR could the lime have affected that?

Maps show Big Cypress Reserve is only about 1.5 hour drive from Deltona.

Here's a (poor) side by side I tried to do. Any chance?

2dweneo.jpg
Click to expand...

It's a strange story...she crossed my mind too....It's not impossible...actually like seeing the pics together. Did you submit through Namus?
 
Bit of hope said:
It's a strange story...she crossed my mind too....It's not impossible...actually like seeing the pics together. Did you submit through Namus?
Click to expand...

No, not through NamUs yet - I tried the Crime Stoppers link that was in the Naples news article:

"Authorities asked that anyone with information about the case call Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers at 800-780-TIPS (8477). Callers can remain anonymous. Tips also may be made at southwestfloridacrimestoppers.com or on the P3Tips mobile app".

I even asked them to pass the info to the Sgt. Williams in the article. Doing that gave me a Tip ID number and a Password to login and see any messages left for me - but checking just now, it has come back that "it was not a tip for a crime, so the information was sent to the appropriate law enforcement agency".

So I really don't know if it actually went anywhere. But why did they list that link in the article for tips if that's not the appropriate place? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I guess I will try NamUs just to make sure that someone checks it out!
 
From the Doe Network file 235UFFL (file update 11/19/18)

Available. Her dental work would not have been possible in a small town during the time frame, but possible in a larger city. She had extensive dental work done on both upper and lower teeth. She had ceramic bridges on most of her teeth. Odontologist estimates that dental work would probably have had been done within two years prior to her death, and she may have still been under the dentist care. Restorative work was of extremely high quality and not capable of being done by the average dentist. It was felt she would have been under the active care of a dentist at the time of her death, possibly with a treatment plan for caps on the upper front teeth and upper right and upper left molar areas. Most of the work appeared to have been performed within two years of her death.

The victim's body was covered with a white substance, which was later analyzed and identified to be hydrated lime or caustic lime, which is used in such things as mortars and cements as well as agricultural purposes.
 
You sometimes hear that murderers want to make a body disappear by throwing quicklime over it. Is that possible? And how does that work? Quicklime is a white lime powder that is made by burning limestone. If you "extinguish" it with water, a reaction is created whereby energy is released, so that temperatures of up to 85 degrees Celsius are reached. The suggestion is that (un) slaked lime causes a corpse to literally dissolve: after about a month it would be digested unrecognizable. But that's a myth. In 2012, a group of Belgian researchers put it to the test with a set of pig carcasses. They buried six pigs: two with quicklime on top, two with slaked lime and two without lime. After six months, they dug up the carcasses again to examine them. Their conclusion? "Although much literature claims the opposite, this study shows that the digestion of the carcasses during the first six months is delayed by both slaked and unslaked lime."

Translated from this article. What does quicklime do with a dead body? Wat doet ongebluste kalk met een lijk? | KIJK

One thing we can be sure off: they, he/she wanted to get rid of the evidence/body and considering the way she died, beaten and with wounds to the skull, she met with foul play. My guess is she is not reported missing. Respectfully sighing...so sad.
 
Gardener1850 said:
Bump: The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
Click to expand...
Must have overlooked these gruesome details. Wondering if the hand mutilation was actually defensive wounds, or to remove a tattoo or similar identifying feature?
rbbm.
"Circumstances of Recovery Found buried in a shallow grave on the west bank of Highway 29, 3/10th of a mile south of Alligator Alley. Obese, decomposed, and covered with white powder (possibly lime). Extensive lacerations/mutiliation of face and scalp, and of the right hand".
 
Looking at her Doe Network profile, I wonder what this is based on? Eye Color: Possibly hazel
235UFFL

Does anyone have insight as to whether or not dental work like what’s described would have been typical during the 70s? Or if it could be indicative of a certain age group or socioeconomic class? I was thinking that might be helpful in narrowing down the age range a bit.

ETA: “Restorative work was of extremely high quality and not capable of being done by the average dentist.”
I guess this could, but not necessarily, speak to socioeconomic class.
 
carbuff said:
I think she was found somewhere along this stretch of road. It's described as "1/2 mile south of State Route 84 (Alligator Alley) on State Route 29. (I-175 by present day maps.)" in Doenet, but I-175 in St. Petersburg is 180 miles north of where routes 84 and 29 meet. The intersection is just south of I-75, however, so I think it's a typo.

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=FL-29+N&daddr=FL-29+N&hl=en&ll=26.089472,-81.410065&spn=0.334857,0.676346&sll=26.164683,-81.439934&sspn=0.167321,0.338173&geocode=FSy-jgEddMYm-w;Ff39jgEdMcYm-w&oq=Florida+29,+&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=12&t=m&z=11

It's right off an exit, too, which would lead one to believe the murderer might have been traveling between Naples on the west coast and the Fort Lauderdale area on the east coast.
Click to expand...

here is a photo of the map where she was found. Literally in the middle of nowhere.
 

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Elizabeth "Betty" Brown, although listed in NamUs, is not shown on the rule out list for Jane Doe. That makes me wonder whether her DNA is available and/or is the same type of sample as JD or if perhaps there's some other reason she hasn't been compared as a potential match. She went missing from NC in Feb 1977. Information in her WS thread claims she and her husband, who is considered a possible suspect in her disappearance, both have connections to FL. She once worked for NASA in FL and he moved to FL "months" after she vanished. I couldn't find any information on exactly where he moved to in FL or whether he had connections in Collier County. I also couldn't find any other information on Betty's NASA employment. Sometime after her NASA employment she worked as an executive secretary at a mental health clinic in North Carolina until 1974.

Jane Doe is believed to have had extensive dental work done in the two years prior to her death. Betty may very well have had dental insurance through her employment with NASA and as an exec. secretary at the MH clinic. It seems those would have been jobs that would have offered nice pay and benefits, imo. Insurance and/or a generous salary or savings would likely have covered the cost of the dental work described for JD. I don't know whether Betty ever received dental care or would have maintained active dental care after she stopped working, but the possible insurance coverage angle makes me curious.

I notice a resemblance of some features when I compare her photo to the composites, but I'm no expert at visual comparisons.:oops: Height is off by four inches according to their NamUs profiles (JD 5'4" - Betty 5'8"), but that is an estimate for JD (Doe Network shows 5'0" to 5'5"). Also, we don't know whether the reporting party knew Betty's exact height or if there may have been a transcription/data entry error. IMO, Betty's reported weight doesn't qualify her as "obese". Her weight is shown as 165 which is 15# less than DN's 180# weight (NamUs shows "cannot estimate"). Hair color for JD is listed as light brown on DN's profile but it's left blank on her NamUs profile. Betty's hair color is listed as "Red/Auburn Head Hair Description - Auburn/Medium Brown" on her NamUs profile and brown on her Charley Project profile. Jane Doe's eye color is blank on NamUs but listed as hazel on DN profile. Betty's eye color is hazel, according to her profiles. Betty's age (57) falls right near the center of JD's estimated age range of 45-70.

I'm considering submitting her for comparison as a PM to Jane Doe, but I wanted to get some input from all of you before doing so. I especially hope any of you genealogy super sleuths would do a little digging to to look into her and her husband's FL connections. The stronger the case is made to justify a comparison, the more seriously investigators may take the submission, imo.

TIA for your attention to JD and Betty's cases.

Elizabeth-Betty-Turvey-Brown
Elizabeth-Betty-Turvey-Brown.jpg


NC - NC - Elizabeth Turvey Brown, 57, Kitty Hawk, 21 Feb 1977

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
 
I don't think there are, or were, NASA jobs on the west coast of FL where Collier County is. They're all on the east coast in Cape Canaveral, and that area is commonly referred to as the Space Coast. It is actually Brevard County and I used to live in the area 1979-1986. I worked with people who's spouses worked at the Cape. There were very, very few females working there. One guy's wife was, if I remember right, the only female engineer there at the time. The other women were mainly administrative / secretarial. So this UID had to have either been brought from the east coast, or is actually from the area she was found in.
 
madamx said:
here is a photo of the map where she was found. Literally in the middle of nowhere.
Click to expand...
It is very desolate for sure. I can remember as a child when it was 2 lanes and traffic was backed up because a gator was lying in the road sunbathing. LOL! Then they put up the fences and widened it, added some rest areas, etc. It isn't quite so desolate now but it sure is frequently traveled, compared to back then.

SR 84 (Davis Blvd) merges on to Alligator Alley (I-75 or SR 93) in Naples. (Yes, it is annoying that we have multiple names for each street here.) I'd guess back in the late 70s, it was pretty rural, especially a 1/2 mile south. So it may not necessarily been that far out, but it was for sure desolate.
 
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