For Those Who Believe that Jessie Maintained His Guilt for Months

[kyleb]

Well there's what Fogleman explained in his closing arguments, and he referred to a diagram he'd made there, but I've yet to see it. That said, I'm more interested in hearing how supporters came to conclude the alibis are legitimate. Has supported manage to come up with anything notable in that regard, perhaps charts of their own? If so, please share.

 

[reedus23]

That's absurd. Prosecutors are ethically bound do drop the case if evidence of actual innocence emerges, and even to go back and rectify the injustice if such evidence surfaces after a conviction. To insist Fogleman made his closing arguments after a legitimate alibi was presented in court implies he either violated his ethical duties or was incompetent. Of course you've never come close to demonstrating either, and neither as anyone else I've yet to come across.

You are still comparing apples to oranges but now you're throwing them creating moving targets too. On second thought, you are right, Fogleman should have argued more vigorously that Jessie was, in fact, in Dyess that evening as the witnesses said. On third thought, you are right, Fogleman should have followed the eithical guidelines and dismissed the charges at the time. It would have prevented a grave injustice to both the WM3 and the 3 boys.

 

[kyleb]

Actually, you're misinterpreting what I've said. Flagrantly.

 

[reedus23]

Well there's what Fogleman explained in his closing arguments, and he referred to a diagram he'd made there, but I've yet to see it. That said, I'm more interested in hearing how supporters came to conclude the alibis are legitimate. Has supported manage to come up with anything notable in that regard, perhaps charts of their own? If so, please share.

Well, you would like to think that they at least interviewed them all before making the arrests. Did LE at least do that?

 

[reedus23]

Actually, you're misinterpreting what I've said. Flagrantly.

Then we are both on completely different pages and I, for one at least, am moving on.

 

[kyleb]

Well I'm going to keep looking for people who can substantiate the beliefs you incorrectly projected on me, and I'll adopt those beliefs if I ever find any such substantiation, but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Well I'm going to keep looking for people who can substance[sic] the beliefs you incorrectly projected on me, and I'll adopt those beliefs if I ever find any such substantiation, but I won't be holding my breath.

The problem I'm having here is that you haven't substantiated your beliefs, IMO. Until you can do that, IMO, it will be difficult to rationally explain other beliefs because, if a person holds on to his/her beliefs irrationally, he/she cannot be swayed from those beliefs.

An open mind is necessary in order to change it. IMO, you don't appear to have one wrt this case. So, when you can demonstrate an open mind, I'd be glad to explain my "beliefs" about this crime, but I won't be holding my breath, either.

 

[kyleb]

I'm not asking for a personalized explanation from you, and my existence has no bearing on whether or not anyone has produced what I've asked for at all. That said, thanks for catching my spellcheck error, dyslexia and a sloppy mouse hand leave my typing rather mangled at times.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Just my very own personal opinion in living in Memphis and having followed the case from the onset, is that Jessie will be the one who again confesses that he, Damien, and Jason are the three individuals who murdered Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

Not that it will matter much to many because even if/when Jessie does once again confess it will just be due to his being "mentally challenged", coerced, and/or manipulated into yet another false confession. Fact is Jessie is not mentally retarded, not even borderline retarded, but IMO what Jessie is that so differs from the other two is that he has a conscience that's heavily weighted by what he participated in doing that May day in 1993 in being directly involved in killing Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

There is a very telling statement made by Jessie that IMO leaves zero doubt he was present when those three were killed. He makes a statement about one of the last things he saw prior to his leaving the crime scene that day.. he states that he saw that one of the three boys was still moving although hogtied and in the creek water.. IMO this statement he made of his seeing this is something that is forever burned into his mind.. and IMO so it should..

Tho, I personally have no compassion for Jessie in his direct role he played in murdering Stevie, Chris, and Michael.. I do however believe that he is heavily, heavily burdened for what he did that day..whereas IMO the other two have no remorse, no conscience, and certainly carry no burden for what they did that May day in 1993..

 

[gheckso]

Not that it will matter much to many because even if/when Jessie does once again confess it will just be due to his being "mentally challenged", coerced, and/or manipulated into yet another false confession. Fact is Jessie is not mentally retarded, not even borderline retarded, but IMO what Jessie is that so differs from the other two is that he has a conscience that's heavily weighted by what he participated in doing that May day in 1993 in being directly involved in killing Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

I don't see how this wouldn't matter to many as he is now in a completely different situation as he was when he originally made these "confessions". IMO if he was to confess now or in the future I believe many people would take his statements more seriously, although I on the other hand, don't believe he will do so.

Is it fact Jessie is not mentally retarded or borderline retarded? I thought everyone was on common ground with Jessie being mentally challenged to some degree.

 

[reedus23]

The problem I'm having here is that you haven't substantiated your beliefs, IMO. Until you can do that, IMO, it will be difficult to rationally explain other beliefs because, if a person holds on to his/her beliefs irrationally, he/she cannot be swayed from those beliefs.

An open mind is necessary in order to change it. IMO, you don't appear to have one wrt this case. So, when you can demonstrate an open mind, I'd be glad to explain my "beliefs" about this crime, but I won't be holding my breath, either.

This times one million.

 

[reedus23]

Just my very own personal opinion in living in Memphis and having followed the case from the onset, is that Jessie will be the one who again confesses that he, Damien, and Jason are the three individuals who murdered Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

Not that it will matter much to many because even if/when Jessie does once again confess it will just be due to his being "mentally challenged", coerced, and/or manipulated into yet another false confession. Fact is Jessie is not mentally retarded, not even borderline retarded, but IMO what Jessie is that so differs from the other two is that he has a conscience that's heavily weighted by what he participated in doing that May day in 1993 in being directly involved in killing Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

There is a very telling statement made by Jessie that IMO leaves zero doubt he was present when those three were killed. He makes a statement about one of the last things he saw prior to his leaving the crime scene that day.. he states that he saw that one of the three boys was still moving although hogtied and in the creek water.. IMO this statement he made of his seeing this is something that is forever burned into his mind.. and IMO so it should..

Tho, I personally have no compassion for Jessie in his direct role he played in murdering Stevie, Chris, and Michael.. I do however believe that he is heavily, heavily burdened for what he did that day..whereas IMO the other two have no remorse, no conscience, and certainly carry no burden for what they did that May day in 1993..

SmoothOperator...while I might have a differing opinion, I can respect your analysis and opinion and just as importantly, the manner in which you put forth your opinion. Simply the manner in which you put forth your opinion and some of the reasons for having reached that opinion does give food for thought and is much more persuasive than the manner used by others.

 

[reedus23]

I don't see how this wouldn't matter to many as he is now in a completely different situation as he was when he originally made these "confessions". IMO if he was to confess now or in the future I believe many people would take his statements more seriously, although I on the other hand, don't believe he will do so.

Is it fact Jessie is not mentally retarded or borderline retarded? I thought everyone was on common ground with Jessie being mentally challenged to some degree.

I'll defer to the experts on what label they want to slap on him. What I know is that he isn't the swiftest a foot mentally. He needed prompting at the Alford Plea hearing, much less giving his statement.

 

[kyleb]

Just my very own personal opinion in living in Memphis and having followed the case from the onset

It's great to see a comment from someone whose been so close to the case for so long, particularly for someone like myself who only started looking into the case less than four months ago. That said, I'm in complete agreement with your opinion, aside from the least bit about compassion. While I've less compassion for child murders that most anyone, I've compassion for all life, even the least of us. I suppose the fact that my father participated in slaughtering of whole villages in Vietnam plays large role in that perspective, as it would be hypocritical of me to have no compassion for other murders while still loving my father. And of course my father doesn't consider what he did to be murder, as it took place in the context of war, and he's convinced to this day that he did what was required to fight off the dreaded Red Menace, but I'm not one to mice words: murder is murder.

Anyway, I'm curious to know if you've ever seen The Case Against the WM3 at WM3 Truth? As that is the source which changed my opinion on the convicted from likely innocent to obviously guilty, I'd like to hear and opinion on it from someone whose been so close to the case for so long and also agrees that the three committed the murders beyond any reasonable doubt. Also, if you've come across any other notable information regarding the murders over the decades which you suspect the rest of us might not be aware of, please share.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Just my very own personal opinion in living in Memphis and having followed the case from the onset, is that Jessie will be the one who again confesses that he, Damien, and Jason are the three individuals who murdered Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

Not that it will matter much to many because even if/when Jessie does once again confess it will just be due to his being "mentally challenged", coerced, and/or manipulated into yet another false confession. Fact is Jessie is not mentally retarded, not even borderline retarded, but IMO what Jessie is that so differs from the other two is that he has a conscience that's heavily weighted by what he participated in doing that May day in 1993 in being directly involved in killing Stevie, Chris, and Michael..

There is a very telling statement made by Jessie that IMO leaves zero doubt he was present when those three were killed. He makes a statement about one of the last things he saw prior to his leaving the crime scene that day.. he states that he saw that one of the three boys was still moving although hogtied and in the creek water.. IMO this statement he made of his seeing this is something that is forever burned into his mind.. and IMO so it should..

Tho, I personally have no compassion for Jessie in his direct role he played in murdering Stevie, Chris, and Michael.. I do however believe that he is heavily, heavily burdened for what he did that day..whereas IMO the other two have no remorse, no conscience, and certainly carry no burden for what they did that May day in 1993..

I agree Smoothoperator, I think that is why there were numerous reports of Jessie's crying fits after the crime, he genuinely felt terrible about it.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/cdabbs.html
http://callahan.8k.com/images/report_06-07-93.jpg
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/rush_l_tankersley.jpg
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/b_lucas_interview.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmir.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jlm_june1.html

DETECTIVE RIDGE: You've been back to this place since that murder?
*A187 MISSKELLEY: Mm-hmm.
DETECTIVE RIDGE: Since it took (unintelligible) place. What did you do while you were there? And be truthful.
*A188 MISSKELLEY: I went down there, I just sit there, and after what they did to the boys, I just sit there
DETECTIVE RIDGE: And did what?
*A189 MISSKELLEY: Just thought, what they, what happened to them real bad, I just thought.
DETECTIVE RIDGE: Okay.
*A190 MISSKELLEY: And then I left and stuff.
DETECTIVE RIDGE: And stuff?
*A191 MISSKELLEY: Left and walked home.
DETECTIVE GITCHELL: When did you go back there? Out.
*A192 MISSKELLEY: Two or three days after it happened, and I left.
DETECTIVE RIDGE: You were there by yourself?
*A193 MISSKELLEY: I was there by myself.

I wonder too if he will speak up again in the future.

 

[kyleb]

In regard to moments of conscience, I also suspect Misskelley's stumbling after after saying "although I am innocent" when entering his Alford plea was a moment of conscience. Then there's Baldwin's moments of uncomfortable silence when asked what he'd say to the parents of the boys here, and when discussing the trial with his lawyer with awaiting the verdicts, both of which seem indicative of at least some semblance of conscience to me. I can't say I've seen anything of the sort from Echols though.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Wrt Jessie's mental abilities, the problem is in terminology. Jessie is reported to have an IQ of 72. Since, for privacy reasons, the educational system cannot verify this, many have relied on Mara Leveritt's extensive research for her book, Devil's Knot. She questioned some of Jessie's former teachers who gave her the IQ information. He was also tested by Dr. William Wilkins who also documented an IQ of 72. Since Arkansas, like most states, doesn't recognize someone as being "retarded" unless the IQ is below 70, technically, Jessie isn't "retarded" but is definitely "borderline retarded" which encompasses IQ's in the 70 - 79 range. (FYI, an "average" IQ is 100.) Here is a source for my assertion. So, I would contend that Jessie's mental deficiencies are established. Obviously, listening to him, especially at the Alford hearing, as was pointed out, should be sufficient indication of his "slow" thinking processes.

ETA: In order to find Wilkins' reference to the IQ test he gave to Jessie, you must wade through vast amounts of the prosecution's attempt to impeach the doctor by bringing up unrelated and irrelevant issues regarding him. Some of these issues are discussed in the hearing held in chambers before he testified. IMO, this is just another example of the farcical nature of this trial.

 

[kyleb]

The topic of Misskelley's reported IQ is one of the reasons I doubt Berlinger and Sinofsky were internally trying to mislead anyone with their movies. As if they were they surely wouldn't have included this segment where Misskelley's lawyer explains the testing which they plan to do and goes on to say were Stidham says "if the court determines that you are operating below average, then there's a possibility that the court will not be allowed, or the state will not be allowed, to impose the death penalty". Surely if Berlinger and Sinofsky had intended to mislead they would've excluded that footage of Misskelley being told that he could get off easy by doing poorly on his intellectual and psychological testing.

Also, while there's nothing built into IQ tests to determine if a subject is internally doing poorly, there an indicator built into another of the tests Misskelley was given at that time though which Wilkins explained during cross examination:

DAVIS: Ok. Now Doctor it’s true that what you actually found was a T value in that F scale of 83.

WILKINS: Yes.

DAVIS: Now are you telling me that that’s a mild elevation?

WILKINS: It’s an elevation above normal levels.

DAVIS: Well don’t they rank the elevations—as far as the T scale is concerned isn’t that something that’s actually ranked in terms of low range, middle range, moderately high range and very high range?

WILKINS: Yes. That may have been a mistake then. I may well have mispronounced what it was supposed to be.

DAVIS: This is a text regarding—MMPI Handbook. Show me here what an 82 to 88 T score on the F scale indicates to you in that book.

WILKINS: Uh, very high.

DAVIS: Very high?

WILKINS: Yes. This would not be quite the same because this is for the MMPI rather than the MMPI-2, which changed critera, but it would still be in the high range.

DAVIS: So when you put in here that that was a mild elevation, that would not be accurate would it?

WILKINS: No. It would not be. No.

DAVIS: And then from that statement that it was a mild elevation you interpreted that that could show malingering, right?

WILKINS: Yes.

DAVIS: And malingering means what, Doctor?

WILKINS: It means, uh, making up stuff. Trying to present yourself as being ill when you’re not for some particular gain.

Then there's another scene in Paradise Lost which shows Misskelley has at least the intellectual capacity to very effectively smooth talk a girl. Given the above facts, while Misskelley is obviously far from the sharpest tool in the shed, claims that his IQ is 72 are dubious at best.

 

[reedus23]

I am glad to see we can agree that...

Misskelley is obviously far from the sharpest tool in the shed

 

[Mrs G Norris]

^^ So is this an option for the Common Ground thread? I think we can ALL agree on that