"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

[legalmania]

Did he tell you if he ever saw anyone duct tape the mouth shut?

If you look at my post you will see a prisoner with duct tape over his mouth, I suggest you or anybody reading this post please do not try it, it does work.

 

[Jolynna]

This isn't a child but here is a instance that the judge used duct tape not to kill but to shut the person up. At the school I attended masking tape was used to keep certain students quite.

http://weinterrupt.com/2009/04/frustrated-judge-has-defendants-mouth-duct-taped-shut/

Until the evidence is clear and convincing there is no proof that the duct tape was covering Caylees nose and she was dead before it was applied. With hands free wouldn't it be a human reaction to pull or scratch at the tape? Shouldn't there have been scratch marks on the duct tape, not to mention fingerprints? There are a couple of cases where women have killed with duct tape but there are more reports of child abuse using duct tape. Here are cases of women who kill and using duct tape is rare.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K3...resnum=6&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

If KC sat on Caylee and held Caylee's arms down with her knees, KC would have had both hands free to tape at leisure. Caylee couldn't have moved. Within 4 minutes Caylee would lose consciousness. KC had only to throw Caylee into her trunk and she could head up the road texting ito Tone taking up only about 10 minutes out of her schedule to kill her daughter.


The duct tape was industrial strength duct tape. IIRC it had a tensile strength of 48 lbs. Which is about 18 lbs more than Caylee weighed.

 

[Jolynna]

If you look at my post you will see a prisoner with duct tape over his mouth, I suggest you or anybody reading this post please do not try it, it does work.

Not 3 layers though including over the prisoner's nose. Unless Caylee was drugged she would have been scared and wondering what she had done bad to make her mommy hurt her.

 

[legalmania]

If KC sat on Caylee and held Caylee's arms down with her knees, KC would have had both hands free to tape at leisure. Caylee couldn't have moved. Within 4 minutes Caylee would lose consciousness. KC had only to throw Caylee into her trunk and she could head up the road texting ito Tone taking up only about 10 minutes out of her schedule to kill her daughter.


The duct tape was industrial strength duct tape. IIRC it had a tensile strength of 48 lbs. Which is about 18 lbs more than Caylee weighed.

Then this would leave the question why was the shape in the trunk in the fetal position? If she held her down, imo she would have died, with her arms and legs extended.

 

[legalmania]

Not 3 layers though including over the prisoner's nose. Unless Caylee was drugged she would have been scared and wondering what she had done bad to make her mommy hurt her.

I didn't read about 3 layers this would be pretty hard to on someone struggling for air, she would have had to be dead or near death before she could put 3 layers on. IMO

 

[legalmania]

No matter what Caylee is dead and a beautiful girl was robbed of life, I want to dedicate this song to Caylee.



----------------
Now playing: Bette Midler - Wind Beneath My Wings
via FoxyTunes

 

[Wudge]

The odds.

Please refer to these two posts by JWG which speak to the rarity of the tape found with Caylee's skeletonized body: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3 and

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match #3

"Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year)."

I believe JWG's observations and math will be borne out by a highly respected expert in the appropriate field.

But the observation cannot be isolated to the duct tape alone. We also have to consider (along with the access to the rare duct tape) who had access to Caylee at the time she went missing. The Anthony household (three, possibly four people) had access to the tape but only one of those people also had access to Caylee before anyone realized she was missing. Cindy, George and Lee were pretty upset and later even frantic about trying to find Caylee and Casey.

And yes, Wudge, I know you like to depreciate a person's actions after the fact of the crime because of your legal philosophy. But I have to tell you, after raising my children and grandchildren that it was usually how they acted after they had done something wrong that led me to the right culprit!

So when I combine the facts, as I have available to me now, it looks like Casey is guilty. I must concede, though, I am more a Judge Judy person and not Supreme Court Justice ~ and most likely that's what our FL jury will be, too. But I cannot end this post without thanking you for always making me stretch my brain in the most uncomfortable ways!! I need the exercise ~ obviously!!

"The odds". (That set my mind off in many directions.)

Exactly, how are these 'odds' calculated that Casey had possession of the tape that was found on Caylee? More importantly, what did that calculation determine the odds to be?

Regarding 'odds', the vast majority of trial Judges won't allow defense attorneys to put experts on the witness stand who would tell the jury that the eyewitness they heard testify for the People has a 1 out of 4 chance (or a greater chance) of being wrong. Yet, it's well known that mistaken eyewitness identification (direct evidence) is the leading cause of wrongful convictions. Jailhouse snitches are earwitnesses. I wonder what the odds are that they would perjure themselves to gain favoraable treatment?

As regards my take on using after the fact (after the crime) behavior in a high-profile case to determine if a person committed a certain crime, my experience is that people who rely on their abilities to divine guilt based on the post crime behavior of a person of interest are usually wrong.

A few high-profile cases that come to mind where people were considered guilty (and were wrongfully demonized) based largely on their behavior are: Richard Jewell in the Olympic park bombing case ... Steve and Marlene Aisenberg in the kidnapping case of their daughter baby Sabrina ... Mark Lunsford in the kidnapping and murder case of his daughter, Jessica Lunsford ... John and Patsy Ramsey in the murder case of their daughter, JonBenet Ramsey ... Gary Condit in the murder case of Chandra Levy ... Steven Hatfill in the Justice Department’s anthrax case ... Richard Ricci in the kidnapping case of Elizabeth Smart ... John Mason in the runaway bride case of Jennifer Wilbanks ... Gerry and Kate McCann in the kidnapping case of their daughter, Madeline McCann ... and Reade Seligman, Collin Finnerty and David Evans in the Duke lacrosse rape case.

Moreover, it's not a 'legal philospophy' of mine. The law recognizes post-crime behavior to be but corroborative evidence (bun), not inculpatory evidence (beef) -- which is fortunate for the people in the cases mentioned above.

 

[USARDOG]

Florida leads nation in wrongful convictions among Death Row inmates

By LAURIE GOERING Chicago Tribune
Feb. 28, 2000

MIAMI -- Since the U.S. Supreme Court allowed the resumption of the death penalty in 1976, Florida has reversed the convictions of 20 Death Row inmates, more than any other state in the nation. As was the case in Illinois, many of the inmates were released from Death Row on evidence of prosecutorial errors, lying by witnesses or confessions by others.

Last year, 75 percent of the death-penalty cases brought before the appeals court were overturned.

http://www.truthinjustice.org/fla-deathrow.htm

 

[USARDOG]

I had a friend who worked in mortuary and he told me that was the one thing that got to him was the people brought in with their mouths open.

This would be considered hearsay evidence because your friend is not here to state what he saw. What were the circumstances of death of those people? Was there one person, 2 people?

I worked in the hospital in the Cath lab. We were called to many of the cardiac arrests. The body's sometimes remained in their beds for hours before being removed. I can't think of a single one who had their mouth open. We recently dissected 20 bodies, none had their mouths open, none came to us with bands around their heads.

These bands, if there not put on at the hospital, then they must be put on at the morge, but then they must be taken off again later as none of the cadavers came to us with bands... This does not seem likely as people do not die and go to the morgue on a time schedule. Rigor is a timed event, therefore, if people's mouths were opening from rigor, I would have seen it in the hos, or some of the cadavors would have come to us with open mouths, none did.

I'm not saying it can't happen to someone, somehow, but it is not the norm from my direct experience.

 

[USARDOG]

As an alternative, during cpr peoples mouths are opened, and their jaws extended to open the airway. If perhaps if someone does not make it, and no one closes their mouths for them post mortem, it is possible that when rigor sets in you may not be able to close the mouth for 24 hrs... That could be what your friend saw.

 

[texaslb218]

Personal experience. Sometimes, when people die, the strongest muscles relax as well as the more obvious muscles...that would be anal and jaw among others. The jaw falls open and fixes the person's face freezes in a semi-death grimace. I have also witnessed a quiet death with no overt physical reaction except cessation of breath.

 

[jon_burrows]

I didn't read about 3 layers this would be pretty hard to on someone struggling for air, she would have had to be dead or near death before she could put 3 layers on. IMO

I would agree with your theory if Caylee had been an adult. She was only two years old. Casey was a young, healthy, athletic woman. It wouldn't take much for her to over power a two year old. IMO

 

[jon_burrows]

Then this would leave the question why was the shape in the trunk in the fetal position? If she held her down, imo she would have died, with her arms and legs extended.

Caylee's body was placed inside two garbage bags and a laundry hamper. I don't think the position of Caylee's body at the time of the murder has any bearing on how she was placed in the trunk. In fact, if Casey carried the hamper by the handles I think Caylee's body would have naturally fallen into the fetal position. IMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

If KC sat on Caylee and held Caylee's arms down with her knees, KC would have had both hands free to tape at leisure. Caylee couldn't have moved. Within 4 minutes Caylee would lose consciousness. KC had only to throw Caylee into her trunk and she could head up the road texting ito Tone taking up only about 10 minutes out of her schedule to kill her daughter.


The duct tape was industrial strength duct tape. IIRC it had a tensile strength of 48 lbs. Which is about 18 lbs more than Caylee weighed.

And she didn't even need to sit on her. A toddler can easily be 'swaddled' in a blanket by an adult, so they are in a virtual straightjacket, not able to move their limbs.

 

[JBean]

Guilty or Not Guilty? Where do you stand?

 

[jon_burrows]

Guilty - 1st degree but I think the defense will go with an 'accidental drowning' theory or something like that to avoid LWOP or the DP.

 

[Evan's Mom]

I can't say for sure at this point.
I know it looks like Casey murdered her daughter, but I've not heard what kind of case the defense is going to produce. I would have to see all of the evidence to make that judgement call.

 

[Brini]

Then this would leave the question why was the shape in the trunk in the fetal position? If she held her down, imo she would have died, with her arms and legs extended.

..and then she was stufffed into three bags. Her body would naturally contract into the fetal position.

 

[texaslb218]

guiltyguiltyguiltyguilty

oh, and...

GUILTY

 

[JoH]

IMO With the evidence released so far, Guilty without a doubt!