"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Wudge]

Not even, honey. The taped-up head argues for premeditation (I'm not really into the computer stuff-household weapons stuff, myself, BTW).

Not having made a plan for disposal doesn't obviate a lack of premeditation.

I have yet to read that prosecutors have clear and unyielding evidence that the tape was placed there before Caylee died. As best I know, there's no highly reliable evidence that the tape caused (cause of death is unknown) or contributed to her death.

 

[JWG]

I have yet to read that prosecutors have clear and unyielding evidence that the tape was placed there before Caylee died. As best I know, there's no highly reliable evidence that the tape caused (cause of death is unknown) or contributed to her death.

Furthermore, none of the released documents even hypothesize that the tape was placed there before death. They only go so far as to say it was placed there prior to decomposition. My own opinion based on reading the documents is that it was placed there after death, likely to stem the flow of fluids, the source of which may have been decomposition or the lungs draining of pool water. It is not possible to determine which based on what I have seen.

 

[Wudge]

Furthermore, none of the released documents even hypothesize that the tape was placed there before death. They only go so far as to say it was placed there prior to decomposition. My own opinion based on reading the documents is that it was placed there after death, likely to stem the flow of fluids, the source of which may have been decomposition or the lungs draining of pool water. It is not possible to determine which based on what I have seen.

I expect to hear testimony regarding the post-death time frame around which a body could reasonably be expected to have fliuds (decomposition or otherwise) leak from the nose and mouth.

 

[countzero]

That's "reasonable doubt," honey.XXXXXXOOOOOO

BTW-- You KNOW I'm your biggest fan, and you know we disagree, here.

I would not hit you with a broom, ever.. But, if there happens to be a cream pie icon..... XXXXXXXXX

I know it seems like reasonable doubt, but it really is her level of guilt that bothers me IF the only evidence they have is what has been released and they went to trial tomorrow. I would find her guilty, but not the penalty of death phase. LWOP.

Oh you don't need to kiss up for me to be a fan of yours. I was long ago. And make that a coconut cream pie ................. my favorite of the creams.

 

[Shear22]

I have yet to read that prosecutors have clear and unyielding evidence that the tape was placed there before Caylee died. As best I know, there's no highly reliable evidence that the tape caused (cause of death is unknown) or contributed to her death.

I reluctantly agree that the evidence that has been released so far does not do a great job of proving premeditation. Although sitting here at home I am convinced that Casey did this deliberately and calmly, carrying out a plan that she had hatched in her mind some time before, if I were sitting on a jury with just the evidence we have seen I would have a hard time convicting her of premeditated murder. However, as has been pointed out several times, Casey has not been indicted for felony murder, although she easily could have. The indictment clearly charges her with having violated Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a)(1) and in doing so requires finding of premeditation. Since the prosecutors could have charged her with felony murder (since they indicted her as well for aggravated child abuse) and chose not to, it leads me to believe that a) this is some sort of a legal strategy and will amend the indictment later or b) that they have more evidence of premeditation that hasn't yet been released. I'm hoping it's (b) because, well, that's more exciting for those of us who sit here waiting impatiently for the next doc dump :computer:, but either way I'm confident that the prosecutors have a solid plan for the case.

 

[Brini]

I have yet to read that prosecutors have clear and unyielding evidence that the tape was placed there before Caylee died. As best I know, there's no highly reliable evidence that the tape caused (cause of death is unknown) or contributed to her death.

Fine! And, she decided to tape up all of the breathing orifaces of the DEAD baby's head because.........

Didn't the pathologist say that the tape was placed BEFORE decomp?

Decomp begins when the vital signs stop.

 

[Brini]

I reluctantly agree that the evidence that has been released so far does not do a great job of proving premeditation. Although sitting here at home I am convinced that Casey did this deliberately and calmly, carrying out a plan that she had hatched in her mind some time before, if I were sitting on a jury with just the evidence we have seen I would have a hard time convicting her of premeditated murder. However, as has been pointed out several times, Casey has not been indicted for felony murder, although she easily could have. The indictment clearly charges her with having violated Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a)(1) and in doing so requires finding of premeditation. Since the prosecutors could have charged her with felony murder (since they indicted her as well for aggravated child abuse) and chose not to, it leads me to believe that a) this is some sort of a legal strategy and will amend the indictment later or b) that they have more evidence of premeditation that hasn't yet been released. I'm hoping it's (b) because, well, that's more exciting for those of us who sit here waiting impatiently for the next doc dump :computer:, but either way I'm confident that the prosecutors have a solid plan for the case.

So am I. They would have no other reason to reinstitute the DP. They are not offering her a deal, at this point. And, they know that KC and the attorney with the big, round, red nose and funny shoes wouldn't accept an offer, in any case.

 

[Brini]

I know it seems like reasonable doubt, but it really is her level of guilt that bothers me IF the only evidence they have is what has been released and they went to trial tomorrow. I would find her guilty, but not the penalty of death phase. LWOP.

Oh you don't need to kiss up for me to be a fan of yours. I was long ago. And make that a coconut cream pie ................. my favorite of the creams.

Good! Will do! Pie, coffee, and only one point of disagreement.

We'll share the food while we sit on that couch you are hiding behind, and watch NG!:dance:XXXXXXXX

 

[Brini]

I expect to hear testimony regarding the post-death time frame around which a body could reasonably be expected to have fliuds (decomposition or otherwise) leak from the nose and mouth.

Well, fluids begin to leak right away. Drool comes out. If there's mucus in the nose, it comes out.

Now, if I was taping up leaking orifaces, I'd tape up the worst one.. the rectum. THAT'S where most of the stuff comes out. I wouldn't bother with the face.

 

[Brini]

Furthermore, none of the released documents even hypothesize that the tape was placed there before death. They only go so far as to say it was placed there prior to decomposition. My own opinion based on reading the documents is that it was placed there after death, likely to stem the flow of fluids, the source of which may have been decomposition or the lungs draining of pool water. It is not possible to determine which based on what I have seen.

What about the other orifaces?

 

[Brini]

Our standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", which is an extremely high hurdle. To clear that hurdle requires the reliability of major evidence to be at least equally high. I don't see that reliability attached to any such evidence in this case.

Moreover, based on my experience assessing the relevance, materiality, competence and reliability of evidence, my call has long been that the evidence does not support murder one in this case.

I'm not gaming anything. It should be clear that I see and measure evidence much differently than you do. And if you or one of yours were ever charged with a felony and facing a criminal trial based on weak circumstantial evidence, I highly suspect that you would consider my assessment more favorably. I also suspect that it would not bother you one iota if your jury was composed of Wudge clones.

FWIW

That's your opinion. We'll see what the jury's opinion is.

For the record, BTW.. I don't have a dog in the fight over premed or not premed. I think it's premed at this point. But, I'am not passionately attached to that opinion.

However, I personally hope she's in until menopause is well established.

 

[countzero]

Well, fluids begin to leak right away. Drool comes out. If there's mucus in the nose, it comes out.

Now, if I was taping up leaking orifaces, I'd tape up the worst one.. the rectum. THAT'S where most of the stuff comes out. I wouldn't bother with the face.

Wasn't there shreds of a disposable diaper found? LA stated Caylee was still in diapers.

You're right about immediate leakage. Anyone who has been around a passing person knows this. I normally am the family member who is strong during crisis but when my dad passed and I was in the room, I freaked out seeing and hearing his lungs release air. Then the rest of the bodily functions ....... my cousin is a doctor and even he was affected by it with me. 10 years later and I remember it as if it happened today. You don't forget the image permanently "burned" into your brain cells.

 

[Wudge]

I reluctantly agree that the evidence that has been released so far does not do a great job of proving premeditation. Although sitting here at home I am convinced that Casey did this deliberately and calmly, carrying out a plan that she had hatched in her mind some time before, if I were sitting on a jury with just the evidence we have seen I would have a hard time convicting her of premeditated murder. However, as has been pointed out several times, Casey has not been indicted for felony murder, although she easily could have. The indictment clearly charges her with having violated Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a)(1) and in doing so requires finding of premeditation. Since the prosecutors could have charged her with felony murder (since they indicted her as well for aggravated child abuse) and chose not to, it leads me to believe that a) this is some sort of a legal strategy and will amend the indictment later or b) that they have more evidence of premeditation that hasn't yet been released. I'm hoping it's (b) because, well, that's more exciting for those of us who sit here waiting impatiently for the next doc dump :computer:, but either way I'm confident that the prosecutors have a solid plan for the case.

I can't see how the circumstances in this case can support a charge of premeditated murder and a charge of felony murder that relates to the aggravated child abuse charge. They are simply too disparate. I believe the prosecutors also recognize this to be true.

Should prosecutors add a felony murder charge based on all that we know, it would be a major surprise to me. Moreover, I would argue to the jury that the state's two highly disparate charges clearly demonstrate that prosecutors are but guessing as to how Caylee died, for premeditated murder is a far cry from from death due to aggravated child abuse. I would further argue that the state's widely disparate charges clearly show that prosecutors themselves do not have a central case to offer the jury, much less evidence that proves either of these vastly different charges beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[JWG]

What about the other orifaces?

Perhaps that is where the one piece of Henkel's duct tape found near the bags, but not on the skull, was originally located? :waitasec:

Although...modern pull-ups should take care of most of that.

Still...that lone, unattached piece of duct tape was somewhere...

 

[Amil]

I can't see how the circumstances in this case can support a charge of premeditated murder and a charge of felony murder that relates to the aggravated child abuse charge. They are simply too disparate. I believe the prosecutors also recognize this to be true.

Should prosecutors add a felony murder charge based on all that we know, it would be a major surprise to me. Moreover, I would argue to the jury that the state's two highly disparate charges clearly demonstrate that prosecutors are but guessing as to how Caylee died, for premeditated murder is a far cry from from death due to aggravated child abuse. I would further argue that the state's widely disparate charges clearly show that prosecutors themselves do not have a central case to offer the jury, much less evidence that proves either of these vastly different charges beyond a reasonable doubt.

When a mother tells everyone she knows that the baby is having fun with the nanny and when caught says the baby was kidnapped, and continues to lie by misleading the police instead of helping the police, reasonable people seated on a jury are going to be listening to the prosecution and jaundiced toward the defense.

 

[countzero]

Well now ..... if JB would just come out and tell us why KC is not guilty then we would not have to have this poll, half or three quarters of the threads would be closed, I would be able to pay attention to what was going on around me while being here with my fellow WS's and my puter and brain would be on full speed again. And the mods, particularly JBean who has to keep me on track (), could go back to a normal routine and meet us all down in the parking lot for one hell-o of a great party :rings: :martini: :toast: :beersign: .

So JB when you read this, please put an ol' gray haired lady back to her pre-KC state before I am able to collect social security.

This is a public service announcement. Stay tune for further announcements and or changes. Thank you.

 

[Marina2]

I can't see how the circumstances in this case can support a charge of premeditated murder and a charge of felony murder that relates to the aggravated child abuse charge. They are simply too disparate. I believe the prosecutors also recognize this to be true.

Should prosecutors add a felony murder charge based on all that we know, it would be a major surprise to me. Moreover, I would argue to the jury that the state's two highly disparate charges clearly demonstrate that prosecutors are but guessing as to how Caylee died, for premeditated murder is a far cry from from death due to aggravated child abuse. I would further argue that the state's widely disparate charges clearly show that prosecutors themselves do not have a central case to offer the jury, much less evidence that proves either of these vastly different charges beyond a reasonable doubt.

I agree about the disparity between first degree murder and felony murder that relates to aggravated child abuse. They haven't charged her with felony murder, though, so it's a non issue at this point, right? Maybe they think they have evidence of past child abuse that justifies the child abuse charge.

I see a greater disparity in the first degree murder charge and the aggravated manslaughter charge. However, it seems to be common for these two charges to exist together. KC's charges are the same ones Billy Bob Thornton's daughter is facing. I've seen this other times, as well.

Judge denies bond for Billy Bob Thornton's daughter
"Amanda Brumfield, 29, was indicted Wednesday on charges of first-degree murder, aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child in the death of a 1-year-old girl she was babysitting in Ocoee."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-bk-billy-bob-thornton-daughter-062509,0,2106554.story


I can see it's quite a jump from premeditated murder to aggravated manslaughter but it appears to be done often.

 

[Marina2]

Well now ..... if JB would just come out and tell us why KC is not guilty then we would not have to have this poll, half or three quarters of the threads would be closed, I would be able to pay attention to what was going on around me while being here with my fellow WS's and my puter and brain would be on full speed again. And the mods, particularly JBean who has to keep me on track (), could go back to a normal routine and meet us all down in the parking lot for one hell-o of a great party :rings: :martini: :toast: :beersign: .

So JB when you read this, please put an ol' gray haired lady back to her pre-KC state before I am able to collect social security.

This is a public service announcement. Stay tune for further announcements and or changes. Thank you.

I guess you'll just have to have patience and faith in JB. He has made us this promise:

Oct. 14, 2008
"During a news conference today, attorney Jose Baez said his client's behavior would be explained at trial.
"We have a court system set up for this," he said. "I sincerely believe when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, now I understand, that explains it."

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6032237&page=1

 

[countzero]

I guess you'll just have to have patience and faith in JB. He has made us this promise:

Oct. 14, 2008
"During a news conference today, attorney Jose Baez said his client's behavior would be explained at trial.
"We have a court system set up for this," he said. "I sincerely believe when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, now I understand, that explains it."

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6032237&page=1

Thanks for finding the link. I didn't have the mental energy to go looking for it ..... again.

I have no patience for JB much less any faith in the man. He wouldn't last 2 nano seconds in my presence before being cut to shreds without him knowing it. I viewed BSheaffers video awhile ago and the man is point on about him and ALyons taking over first chair now. JB may not even get second chair ..... can't say I will cry over that one.

 

[chefmom]

Furthermore, none of the released documents even hypothesize that the tape was placed there before death. They only go so far as to say it was placed there prior to decomposition. My own opinion based on reading the documents is that it was placed there after death, likely to stem the flow of fluids, the source of which may have been decomposition or the lungs draining of pool water. It is not possible to determine which based on what I have seen.

I thought the tape may have been placed to stop fluids, too. But, I have read that when a person dies, the muscle in the jaw relaxes and drops, making the mouth open. Considering the description of the placement of the tape strips, and the fact that they are what was holding her jaw in place when her remains were found, I think KC may have been trying to tape her mouth shut. Maybe she couldn't take seeing her there with her mouth open, not moving. (Oooh! It makes me shutter just to type that!)