"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Brini]

From the evidence available in the public domain (which is almost assusedly most everything) we have learned of numerous web searches that Casey allegedly made far ahead of when Caylee was last seen alive. Many posters in crime forums and legal analysts speak to these web searches as allegedly being state of mind evidence that establishes Casey was considering options for killing (murdering) Caylee long before she was last seen alive. If true, this would support the planning and deliberation elements that a charge of murder one requires be proved.

Given that many of these searches took place far ahead (weeks, months) of when Caylee was last seen alive demonstrates the State should not be expected to claim that the alleged planning and deliberation was sudden; i.e., just seconds, minutes or even hours beforehand. And if the planning and deliberation is alleged by prosecutors to have been far ahead of time, it does not compute that body disposable would never have been thought about, which is what driving around for days with a body in the trunk of your car would strongly suggest.

Not quite, Wudge.

KC has a long history of living a few minutes at at time.

She steals without a plan to cover up the theft, then tries to bluster her way out of trouble. She tells transparent lies that she thinks up on the fly. The lies are easily checked out and contradicted.

In otherwords, she can't anticipate or plan for the consequences of her behaviors. She is incapable of forming a well-thought out plan to cover a crime, or for that matter, any other action of hers.

She could easily have explored options, on the Net. Then, decided to act on the night of the quarrel-- to free herself and get back at CA. Intent can be formed, as is said, "In the twinkling of an eye." Perhaps she intended to kill Caylee the first moment that they were alone, after the quarrel. Perhaps she decided to kill Caylee because she wanted to be with TonE, that night, and didn't have a sitter.

That a plan to dispose of the body was never made is entirely within KC's established limitations.

This case reminds me, in a way, of the cases were a spouse decides s/he is tired of being married. Maybe takes out a lucrative insurance policy, maybe not.

Then, maybe weeks, months, or years later, an opportunity presents itself to kill the spouse.

Or, maybe the killer just can't stand waiting any longer. And, it is done.

The spouse may have been killed because, say, of an "accident" that day. But, the intent has been there for a long time, and can be established for a jury.

 

[Marina2]

The prosecution doesn't have a cause of death so I don't think they'll even try to tie in the computer evidence to the murder. It would be different if they found Caylee earlier with a broken neck or if they found proof that she was chloroformed. They would defintely use this evidence in that case. I haven't ever put much stock in the computer searches as evidence of how Caylee died.

KC may have had a plan in the works for that long but wasn't ready to implement it. Maybe something happened to cause her to kill Caylee prior to forming a plan for disposal. Those searches do support that she had the frame of mind to take Caylee's life if she had been planning for months. This frame of mind and whatever put her over the edge could cause her to kill Caylee long before she worked out the body disposal part of it.

Another thought is that maybe she did have a plan for disposal but it fell through for one reason or another.

Then again, the searches could be completely unrelated to Caylee's death.

 

[Marina2]

Premeditation "can" be formed in a short period of time. However, the key thing is for prosecutors to produce reliable evidence that proves this is true.

The alleged evidence (such as computer searches) that most posters usually to refer to as evidence of premeditation were not made just seconds or minutes before Caylee was last seen alive.

Thanks Wudge. My question was regarding the trunk evidence rather than the computer searches. I read your post to Muzikman and can see your reasoning now. I'm not of the mind that the computer searches prove anything, let alone premeditation. I don't think they'll use it unless they can find a cause of death that's similar to what she searched for.

 

[Brini]

The prosecution doesn't have a cause of death so I don't think they'll even try to tie in the computer evidence to the murder. It would be different if they found Caylee earlier with a broken neck or if they found proof that she was chloroformed. They would defintely use this evidence in that case. I haven't ever put much stock in the computer searches as evidence of how Caylee died.

KC may have had a plan in the works for that long but wasn't ready to implement it. Maybe something happened to cause her to kill Caylee prior to forming a plan for disposal. Those searches do support that she had the frame of mind to take Caylee's life if she had been planning for months. This frame of mind and whatever put her over the edge could cause her to kill Caylee long before she worked out the body disposal part of it.

Another thought is that maybe she did have a plan for disposal but it fell through for one reason or another.

Then again, the searches could be completely unrelated to Caylee's death.

I'm not wedded to those searches, either. Pretty sure we all research some pretty bizarre things, now and again.

But, on the other hand... the addition of the searches for means of killing PLUS the research re: missing children-- BEFORE Caylee went missing, won't look too good, when added to the forensic and the other behavioral evidence.

 

[Jolynna]

From the evidence available in the public domain (which is almost assusedly most everything) we have learned of numerous web searches that Casey allegedly made far ahead of when Caylee was last seen alive. Many posters in crime forums and legal analysts speak to these web searches as allegedly being state of mind evidence that establishes Casey was considering options for killing (murdering) Caylee long before she was last seen alive. If true, this would support the planning and deliberation elements that a charge of murder one requires be proved.

Given that many of these searches took place far ahead (weeks, months) of when Caylee was last seen alive demonstrates the State should not be expected to claim that the alleged planning and deliberation was sudden; i.e., just seconds, minutes or even hours beforehand. And if the planning and deliberation is alleged by prosecutors to have been far ahead of time, it does not compute that body disposable would never have been thought about, which is what driving around for days with a body in the trunk of your car would strongly suggest.

Maybe before she killed Caylee she had never dug a hole?

Looks pretty easy on television.

She DID look up shovels. She even borrowed one. Should have been good to go.

 

[Brini]

Is this a common thing ~ to put tape over all the orifices on a dead body to prevent "leakage" of the decomp fluids? I have never heard of it before and am sure it would never occur to me to do this preventative maintenance on someone I had just murdered. Are there a lot (or any) cases that we are aware of when it had been done before? Or is this just a theory to help rationalize the presence of the duct tape that we have just kinda run with?

It's a theory.

Bodies are bagged, not taped, for good reason.

 

[Frigga]

To contemplate~
1. To look at attentively and thoughtfully.
2. To consider carefully and at length; meditate on or ponder: contemplated the problem from all sides; contemplated the mystery of God.
3. or To have in mind as an intention possibility: contemplate marriage; forced by the accident to contemplate retirement.

To plan~
1: a drawing or diagram drawn on a plane: as a: a top or horizontal view of an object b: a large-scale map of a small area 2 a: a method for achieving an end b: an often customary method of doing something : procedure c: a detailed formulation of a program of action d: goal, aim3: an orderly arrangement of parts of an overall design or objective4: a detailed program (as for payment or the provision of some service) <pension plan>

Herein lies the difference, I believe. A good example would be someone *contemplating* divorce... marriage is unhappy, person is cruel, not a good parent, not attracted anymore- blah, blah, blah. Should I stay? Should I leave? Will I find someone new... will I be alone for the rest of my life? Am I better off staying... you get the drift.

I believe most people *contemplate* things, then make a decision, then (hopefully) make a *plan*.

I believe Casey *contemplated* killing or getting rid of Caylee (some might even consider her contemplation processes as more of Daydreaming (as we tend to do in school as teenagers when we are bored or otherwise unoccupied). Kind of like Casey doodling Tony's surname at the end of hers on the notepad. She was Daydreaming about her married name, what it would look like, sound like etc. (probably simultaneously contemplating what marriage to Tony might look like for her).

I don't believe she had necessarily thought through a *plan*. Quite frankly, I don't think Casey thinks anything through that even looks like what I described above. I believe very much she flies by the seat-of-her-pants, to varying degrees.

So, back to the divorce scenario, someone contemplates and over time, decides yes, I am going to leave; then begins making their plans. Do I need to stash money away unnoticed til its time? Where will I go? Will I stay with a friend? If I am a stay-at-home Mom- how will I provide for my kids? That is when most people develop their *plan*.

I do not think Casey ever reached the *plan* process completely. Did she look at ways to do it? I believe she did. Did she figure out what she would do after wards? I believe not. Remember she lives in an extremely fragmented, fantasy world. This is not her way. I think something or someone triggered her, and the things she had *contemplated*, came to fruition. After that, I think she was saying to herself- "What the Hay do I do now?" and everything else was born from there!

I hope I made some sense... this is just my opinion in regards to the above post (Wudge's post(s))- thanks for your time!

 

[Brini]

Maybe before she killed Caylee she had never dug a hole?

Looks pretty easy on television.

Not easy when I try to do it. But, I guess it depends on the terrain.

 

[Wudge]

Thanks Wudge. My question was regarding the trunk evidence rather than the computer searches. I read your post to Muzikman and can see your reasoning now. I'm not of the mind that the computer searches prove anything, let alone premeditation. I don't think they'll use it unless they can find a cause of death that's similar to what she searched for.

I agree with your holding on the computer searches. Nonetheless, prosecutors are going with a premeditated murder, and to prove premeditation they need to produce reliable evidence of intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.

In this regard, I believe most case followers consider the computer searches first and foremost. If prosecutors do not rely on the computer searches as evidence that reliably proves those four elements, what then?

 

[Brini]

To contemplate~
1. To look at attentively and thoughtfully.
2. To consider carefully and at length; meditate on or ponder: contemplated the problem from all sides; contemplated the mystery of God.
3. or To have in mind as an intention possibility: contemplate marriage; forced by the accident to contemplate retirement.

To plan~
1: a drawing or diagram drawn on a plane: as a: a top or horizontal view of an object b: a large-scale map of a small area 2 a: a method for achieving an end b: an often customary method of doing something : procedure c: a detailed formulation of a program of action d: goal, aim3: an orderly arrangement of parts of an overall design or objective4: a detailed program (as for payment or the provision of some service) <pension plan>

Herein lies the difference, I believe. A good example would be someone *contemplating* divorce... marriage is unhappy, person is cruel, not a good parent, not attracted anymore- blah, blah, blah. Should I stay? Should I leave? Will I find someone new... will I be alone for the rest of my life? Am I better off staying... you get the drift.

I believe most people *contemplate* things, then make a decision, then (hopefully) make a *plan*.

I believe Casey *contemplated* killing or getting rid of Caylee (some might even consider her contemplation processes as more of Daydreaming (as we tend to do in school as teenagers when we are bored or otherwise unoccupied). Kind of like Casey doodling Tony's surname at the end of hers on the notepad. She was Daydreaming about her married name, what it would look like, sound like etc. (probably simultaneously contemplating what marriage to Tony might look like for her).

I don't believe she had necessarily thought through a *plan*. Quite frankly, I don't think Casey thinks anything through that even looks like what I described above. I believe very much she flies by the seat-of-her-pants, to varying degrees.

So, back to the divorce scenario, someone contemplates and over time, decides yes, I am going to leave; then begins making their plans. Do I need to stash money away unnoticed til its time? Where will I go? Will I stay with a friend? If I am a stay-at-home Mom- how will I provide for my kids? That is when most people develop their *plan*.

I do not think Casey ever reached the *plan* process completely. Did she look at ways to do it? I believe she did. Did she figure out what she would do after wards? I believe not. Remember she lives in an extremely fragmented, fantasy world. This is not her way. I think something or someone triggered her, and the things she had *contemplated*, came to fruition. After that, I think she was saying to herself- "What the Hay do I do now?" and everything else was born from there!

I hope I made some sense... this is just my opinion in regards to the above post- thanks for your time!

But, the forming of intent needs not be so protracted.

I keep a gun. It is stored empty, and the ammo is locked up.

If I unlock the ammo and load the gun, I have formed intent, if I then shoot someone.

It has only taken me a minute, or two.

 

[Frigga]

Brini, I agree with you... a very valid point.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I agree with your holding on the computer searches. Nonetheless, prosecutors are going with a premeditated murder, and to prove premeditation they need to produce reliable evidence of intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.

In this regard, I believe most case followers consider the computer searches first and foremost. If prosecutors do not rely on the computer searches as evidence that reliably proves those four elements, what then?

I think this is a question many of us would like answered, and we probably won't know until trial. I think the best we can do is speculate on what the state's "theory" is. Maybe it's as simple as, Casey wanted to be free that night to go to Tony's, after numerous attempts by Cindy to force a responsible adult role on Casey, she decided a few minutes before killing Caylee that this was her plan for a babysitter, a permanent one. Maybe the proof is in a conversation, a text message we have yet to see, IDK. Until we hear what the state believes happened to Caylee or receive more discovery that fills in the blanks, speculation is all we can do.

One thing I am sure of, the prosecution does have more information than we do, I feel sure they have their ducks in a row and will be ready to produce the goods at trial.

 

[indicat]

I agree with your holding on the computer searches. Nonetheless, prosecutors are going with a premeditated murder, and to prove premeditation they need to produce reliable evidence of intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.

In this regard, I believe most case followers consider the computer searches first and foremost. If prosecutors do not rely on the computer searches as evidence that reliably proves those four elements, what then?

They did not seek the death penalty until the duct tape information came out. Would'nt that say the duct tape is what they are using as intent, deliberaton and malice aforethought? As for the planning I would say that was the thought of doing this entering her head possibly while Caylee was crying, actually it fits all the criteria.

 

[Marina2]

I agree with your holding on the computer searches. Nonetheless, prosecutors are going with a premeditated murder, and to prove premeditation they need to produce reliable evidence of intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.

In this regard, I believe most case followers consider the computer searches first and foremost. If prosecutors do not rely on the computer searches as evidence that reliably proves those four elements, what then?

I think they'll just put all they have out there that doesn't destroy their credibility and hope for the best. The best being first degree murder. If the jury doesn't feel the evidence supports that, they have the option of aggravated manslaughter. I have no doubt that the jury will be convinced that KC is responsible for Caylee's death. The aggravated manslaughter charge included in the indictment gives them an out if the prosecution can't prove premeditation.

 

[MAMABEAR]

But, the forming of intent needs not be so protracted.

I keep a gun. It is stored empty, and the ammo is locked up.

If I unlock the ammo and load the gun, I have formed intent, if I then shoot someone.

It has only taken me a minute, or two.

And if one rips one piece of duct tape and puts it on a child's mouth and then rip another piece---the gun is loaded and pointing at child's head---the third piece of duct tape is pulling the trigger. The report said "several" pieces of tape---at least 3---equals a dead baby. I could see her being mad enough at baby for throwing a fit for one piece of tape---not a good idea but when she rips that second piece of tape then she had a purpose.

 

[Searchfortruth]

But, the forming of intent needs not be so protracted.

I keep a gun. It is stored empty, and the ammo is locked up.

If I unlock the ammo and load the gun, I have formed intent, if I then shoot someone.

It has only taken me a minute, or two.

Or, in this case intent could be formed during the time it takes to tear off multiple strips of duct tape...it could be formed during the time it takes to tear off one piece of duct tape. We know that Casey tore off atleast three (?) pieces of tape and put them on Caylee, that's enough premeditation for me.

 

[MAMABEAR]

They did not seek the death penalty until the duct tape information came out. Would'nt that say the duct tape is what they are using as intent, deliberaton and malice aforethought? As for the planning I would say that was the thought of doing this entering her head possibly while Caylee was crying, actually it fits all the criteria.

And we still don't know what was found on the tape. Could be marks from Caylee.

 

[Brini]

Maybe before she killed Caylee she had never dug a hole?

Looks pretty easy on television.

She DID look up shovels. She even borrowed one. Should have been good to go.

Not if the yard is threaded with bamboo roots.

Also, KC is lazy.

 

[Jolynna]

I agree with your holding on the computer searches. Nonetheless, prosecutors are going with a premeditated murder, and to prove premeditation they need to produce reliable evidence of intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.

In this regard, I believe most case followers consider the computer searches first and foremost. If prosecutors do not rely on the computer searches as evidence that reliably proves those four elements, what then?

BBM.

In response to your question...the duct tape.

There is no reason to put duct tape over a dead child's nose and mouth. I don't think there has ever been a single instance of a mother duct taping over their child's mouth or nose to stop fluid leakage after death. I believe KC used the duct tape for the same reasons every other perp uses duct tape.

IMO

 

[Jolynna]

Not if the yard is threaded with bamboo roots.

Also, KC is lazy.

I agree. KC did look up "shovels" when she was doing her chloroform searches. She went and got a shovel. And she borrowed a shovel the day after the last time Caylee was ever seen.

It sounds like KC did the necessary research in advance, got the equipment and was prepared to dig the day after Caylee died. She just didn't know in advance how hard digging was going to be.

Being too lazy to dig the hole doesn't change intent. Casey still borrowed the shovel. It isn't reasonable to think KC was concerned about what the bamboo would do to the feet of her deceased child. So why the shovel the day after Caylee is gone and KC gets to have her first full night ever with Tony?

IMO