"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Guilty V Not Guilty & What Level

  • Guilty 1st Degree Murder - Totally Premeditated

    Votes: 530 79.3%
  • Guilty 2cnd Degree Murder

    Votes: 58 8.7%
  • Guilty Manslaughter - Not premeditated but during a Rage attack or a snapped moment

    Votes: 61 9.1%
  • Not Guilty - Complete Accident

    Votes: 11 1.6%
  • Completely Innocent

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    668
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
From the evidence available in the public domain (which is almost assusedly most everything) we have learned of numerous web searches that Casey allegedly made far ahead of when Caylee was last seen alive. Many posters in crime forums and legal analysts speak to these web searches as allegedly being state of mind evidence that establishes Casey was considering options for killing (murdering) Caylee long before she was last seen alive. If true, this would support the planning and deliberation elements that a charge of murder one requires be proved.

Given that many of these searches took place far ahead (weeks, months) of when Caylee was last seen alive demonstrates the State should not be expected to claim that the alleged planning and deliberation was sudden; i.e., just seconds, minutes or even hours beforehand. And if the planning and deliberation is alleged by prosecutors to have been far ahead of time, it does not compute that body disposable would never have been thought about, which is what driving around for days with a body in the trunk of your car would strongly suggest.

I understand your reasoning now Wudge, but I think you're placing way too much weight on the computer searches months before being used by prosecutors as their main evidence of premeditation. Just because it was released as discovery doesn't mean that a lot of weight will be placed on those facts.

More likely, IMHO, is a family fight in the hours before Caylee went missing. Anger from this fight triggered the premeditation, as evidenced by multiple strips of duct tape. The body in the trunk for several days then evidences Casey's callous disregard for her daughter's well-being; taking any responsibility for her actions; or there having been some kind of accidental death.

And you can bet next year's salary that all the evidence available is most assuredly not yet in the public domain. :)
 
I understand your reasoning now Wudge, but I think you're placing way too much weight on the computer searches months before being used by prosecutors as their main evidence of premeditation. Just because it was released as discovery doesn't mean that a lot of weight will be placed on those facts.

More likely, IMHO, is a family fight in the hours before Caylee went missing. Anger from this fight triggered the premeditation, as evidenced by multiple strips of duct tape. The body in the trunk for several days then evidences Casey's callous disregard for her daughter's well-being; taking any responsibility for her actions; or there having been some kind of accidental death.

And you can bet next year's salary that all the evidence available is most assuredly not yet in the public domain. :)

Totally agree, Muzikman. And want to add that I'm super happy to be seeing posts from you again. I've missed you and your thoughts.
 
And if one rips one piece of duct tape and puts it on a child's mouth and then rip another piece---the gun is loaded and pointing at child's head---the third piece of duct tape is pulling the trigger. The report said "several" pieces of tape---at least 3---equals a dead baby. I could see her being mad enough at baby for throwing a fit for one piece of tape---not a good idea but when she rips that second piece of tape then she had a purpose.

No thrashing. Besides, Countzero and I have eaten the coconut pies I had planned to throw. :)

Just a gentle reminder that "innocent until proven guilty" applies ONLY to the courts. Personal opinion is not bound by it. XOXO

Brini, that pie was mighty tasty today after supper ......;) I do enjoy sharing with friends.

Mana, I loved your analogy! Well put. I do want to read Dr. G's professional opinion of the timing and placement of the duct tape to give KC the final bullet.

Still, I have many, many unanswered questions about the A clan involvement that I can not shake off with the released docs. If the A clan is not involved why wouldn't the LE/SA release docs that say this? The forensic testing has to be complete by now; seven months almost to the date Caylee was found. This cat and mouse game between LE/SA and JB&crew needs to come to a conclusion and let the trial be swift and on to the sentence phase and save the folks in Fla millions of $$$$$.
 
I agree. KC did look up "shovels" when she was doing her chloroform searches. She went and got a shovel. And she borrowed a shovel the day after the last time Caylee was ever seen.

It sounds like KC did the necessary research in advance, got the equipment and was prepared to dig the day after Caylee died. She just didn't know in advance how hard digging was going to be.

Being too lazy to dig the hole doesn't change intent.

IMO

She also remembered to have duct tape with her. Who carries around duct tape?
 
I understand your reasoning now Wudge, but I think you're placing way too much weight on the computer searches months before being used by prosecutors as their main evidence of premeditation. Just because it was released as discovery doesn't mean that a lot of weight will be placed on those facts.

More likely, IMHO, is a family fight in the hours before Caylee went missing. Anger from this fight triggered the premeditation, as evidenced by multiple strips of duct tape. The body in the trunk for several days then evidences Casey's callous disregard for her daughter's well-being; taking any responsibility for her actions; or there having been some kind of accidental death.

And you can bet next year's salary that all the evidence available is most assuredly not yet in the public domain. :)

POTD:woohoo::woohoo:
 
To further clarify my previous posts in this thread, as well as others I would like to express my personal opinion and experience.

When you have lived within a severely dysfunctional family unit, you have been taught at a very early age the clues to see in others. I have learned to pickup to nuances of body language and verbal clues that slap me in the face when I am around them. I have learned to slowly separate myself from them and back away. I have learned that no amount of mumbo jumbo talk will change who they are and the evil they project on those around them who aren't strong enough to leave them and the situation they are in. I have learn to spot a manipulator from a distance. I have learned not to give them an inch or a nano second of my time for if I do, they will zap the energy I have left.

I have learned that I will not give them that power over me.

With regards to the A clan. I have yet to see any explanation that can be rationally accepted that CA/GA/LA tried to assist Caylee. NONE. Instead they have all given explanations where they assisted KC. They have told lies countless of times to the extent that if I had a nickel for each one told, I could buy a new home in Florida, and pay the asking price and retire again. I see in CA/GA/LA/KC images of those I grew up with. Only the names and faces were changed. The personalities were similar if not the same.

They are involved in Caylee's murder. It is to what degree that I have questions. I don't buy one of the excuses that CA has given. She has no grief for Caylee nor KC. Even if CA did not directly murder Caylee, she still bears responsibility by association.

So again, is KC guilty ..... yes ..... but I am not convinced it was KC alone.

Brini, add two bottles of red wine to what I owe ya :blowkiss:
 
I understand your reasoning now Wudge, but I think you're placing way too much weight on the computer searches months before being used by prosecutors as their main evidence of premeditation. Just because it was released as discovery doesn't mean that a lot of weight will be placed on those facts.

More likely, IMHO, is a family fight in the hours before Caylee went missing. Anger from this fight triggered the premeditation, as evidenced by multiple strips of duct tape. The body in the trunk for several days then evidences Casey's callous disregard for her daughter's well-being; taking any responsibility for her actions; or there having been some kind of accidental death.

And you can bet next year's salary that all the evidence available is most assuredly not yet in the public domain. :)

Then, there's that vid of KC happily renting movies w/ TonE w/i hours of the death by whatever means of her baby.

Doesn't LOOK good, Wudge.

You can pick at individual pieces of evidence 'til who shot John. But, when it's all put into a pile... gets NASTY, honey! REALLY odoriferous! Kinda like decomp.
 
Our standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", which is an extremely high hurdle. To clear that hurdle requires the reliability of major evidence to be at least equally high. I don't see that reliability attached to any such evidence in this case.

Moreover, based on my experience assessing the relevance, materiality, competence and reliability of evidence, my call has long been that the evidence does not support murder one in this case.

I'm not gaming anything. It should be clear that I see and measure evidence much differently than you do. And if you or one of yours were ever charged with a felony and facing a criminal trial based on weak circumstantial evidence, I highly suspect that you would consider my assessment more favorably. I also suspect that it would not bother you one iota if your jury was composed of Wudge clones.

FWIW

Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

Please go read People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 as it pretty much addresses every point you have been trying to make and pretty much refutes most of them.

This is my first post on this forum but I have been lurking for a very long time and felt compelled to come out of lurking to mention this case as I feel it is a good primer for Casey Anthony trial.
 
Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

Please go read People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 as it pretty much addresses every point you have been trying to make and pretty much refutes most of them.

This is my first post on this forum but I have been lurking for a very long time and felt compelled to come out of lurking to mention this case as I feel it is a good primer for Casey Anthony trial.
Thank you for your post and...

:Welcome-12-june:
 
Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

Please go read People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 as it pretty much addresses every point you have been trying to make and pretty much refutes most of them.

This is my first post on this forum but I have been lurking for a very long time and felt compelled to come out of lurking to mention this case as I feel it is a good primer for Casey Anthony trial.

POTD! Please kindly do us the favor of ceasing to lurk, and jump on in!

Thanks!:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:
 
I believe KC is guilty.....but I don't understand why she needed to research shovels to figure out how to dig a hole. The cumulative circumstantial evidence points to KC; however, what evidence is allowed at trial, how it is delivered to the jury, and how they percieve that info is another story. Marspiter - WELCOME! Great first post. I lurked for years before posting, but your first post was awesome! Thanks!
 
I have yet to see any evidence that would convince me (if I were a juror) that KC is guilty of the actual charges laid against her, i.e. 1st degree murder or aggravated manslaughter. Until I do, I will reserve judgement.

One thing I am sure of, is that it is a good job that civilised societies such as ours have a legal system that affords a presumption of innocence and a right to a fair trial. The lynch mob mentality I have witnessed on various blogs and forums (including this one) is truly frightening, IMO!

I do not deny for one minute that any unnecessary loss of life is a tragedy, particularly when it is an innocent child, but I am still appalled at the sheer number of people who appear to have already decided KC is deserving of the death penalty before she has been proven guilty of any crime that would warrant it!

If she has wilfully or recklessly caused the death of her child then she will deserve the punishment she receives. At the moment however, she is, and should be, presumed innocent of those acts.

No one had "decided" that she's guilty, it is simply their opinion just as it is yours that she may not be. BTW, IMO.......the indications are overwhelming she's guilty. The presumption of innocence you speak of is just a legal mechanism to afford her a fair trial, not in any way an expectation in the belief of her actual innocence.
 
Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

WOW! Just WOW!
I was going to snip for space or bold the most interesting parts, but I couldn't find anything to exclude.
Amazingly articulate thoughts! Things that make soooo much sense it's nearly a 'DUH' moment.
Thank you for stepping out of lurkdom to share this information. Please continue posting!!!!
I'll also be researching the case you cited, no info seems to be enough info in this crazy case.
 
Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

WOW! Just WOW!
I was going to snip for space or bold the most interesting parts, but I couldn't find anything to exclude.
Amazingly articulate thoughts! Things that make soooo much sense it's nearly a 'DUH' moment.
Thank you for stepping out of lurkdom to share this information. Please continue posting!!!!
I'll also be researching the case you cited, no info seems to be enough info in this crazy case.

I just read up on it, too.
 
KC is guilty as H E double hockey sticks. Stick a fork in her...done. Over. Finished.
What I hate about the DP...experts I mean, since I am against the DP...is that the experts feel (IMO) as though since a murderer is still living, that they DESERVE special treatment. The victim is dead. We can't do anything for the victim...but let's help this "special" person...who committed a crime. Their life is forfeit to me. I told cecy on the phone, they are better off being experiments...instead of cute puppies and rats. Experiment on these worthless jerks. JMO.
KC is guilty. There is no curious cloud of doubt...save for the aftermath...by that I mean, once KC was arrested on a bleeping whim. Her parents likely will not be charged. Yes, they have completely desecrated Caylee's memory by being all Saprano like and covering up "after the fact" but it is pretty apparent that KC was the one driving around the death mobile and used paper towels to clean off decomp either from the trunk or from herself. I could care less what her life is like in prison. She has one life and she destroyed it all on her own. Guilty guilty guilty.
 
Wudge,

You keep repeating over and over “beyond reasonable doubt”. Beyond reasonable doubt is not some form of all encompassing shield that allows any off the wall explanation of a crime to exist in the mind of a juror. Nor does it mean if there is any doubt in their mind they must acquit, as that doubt must be considered with in reason to the average reasonable person. It does not state beyond the shadow of doubt. In this case I would argue that any other explanation in this case regarding Casey’s guilt is in fact not reasonable to the average reasonable person (assuming they aren’t just playing devil’s advocate, just to do so). This is what reasonable doubt is, just in case there are any questions.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: is the standard of proof required in most criminal cases within an adversarial system. Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there is no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a reasonable person that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a "reasonable person's" belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty.

Also beyond reasonable doubt can be maintained by only circumstantial evidence. I suggest you look into People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458. This case mainly talks about proving murder with out a body but the court also talks about the weight of circumstantial evidence and how a guilty conviction can stem from only circumstantial evidence. People v. Scott further more goes on to explain how circumstantial evidence can be used in the establishment of the corpus delicti of murder.

In that case the individual was convicted of murder with no body. Further more there was no evidence of violence or other means of death (much like this case). The circumstantial evidence of that case pointed to a conclusion (assumption if you will) of the victim being murdered and the evidence in that case is less then the circumstantial evidence already presented in this case. That and the actions (lies) of the defendant in the establishment of guilt were used, much like this case.

Please go read People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 as it pretty much addresses every point you have been trying to make and pretty much refutes most of them.

Welcome.

The complete standard you refer to is "proof" beyond a reasonable doubt, and that proof must be based on the prosecution providing highly reliable evidence that is necessary to support the charge. In this case, the major charge is murder one.

To prove murder one beyond a reasonable doubt, prosecutors must present highly reliable evidence (clear and unyielding) that proves four required elements for a murder one conviction. These four necessary elements that must be proved by the prosecutors producing highly reliable evidence at trial are: intent (wilfull), planning (premeditation), deliberation (consideration) and malice aforethough (evil mind).

It's also important to understand that jurors must deliberate and reach their decision as instructed by the trial judge. Given the facts in this case, a few boilerplate jury instructions bear noting. The first instruction that bears noting is that the judge will tell jurors they are not permitted to speculate. Another key instruction the judge will give to jurors is that if the defense provides a reasonable explanation for an item of circumstantial evidence that prosecutors hold to be inculpatory evidence, jurors must accept the defense's explanation. In other words, if the defense provides a reasonable explanation for an item of evidence, jurors cannot use that evidence to support a guilty verdict (they must "yield" to the defense). This is true even if the prosecution's explanation (view) of the evidence is deemed to be far more reasonable; e.g., 70/30 in favor of the prosecution's view or 80/ 20 or 90/10, etc..

Most importantly, a critical review of the evidence in this case shows that the State has neither a witness nor a confession nor a crime scene nor forensic evidence from a crime scene. Moreover, the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death are unknown as is the mechanism of her death, the place of her death, the cause of her death and the date of her death.

Clearly, many people speak poorly of Casey's behavior and allege it to represent concsiounness of guilt, and many people also hold Casey to have made false and/or misleading statements. Nevertheless, the judge will instruct the jury that, at best, such evidence represents corroborative evidence, not inculpatory evidence. And it's this lack of highly reliable inculpatory evidence that is the basis for my position that the evidence we know of is insufficient to support the State's premeditated murder charge.

(Feel free to lay out the evidence and/or premises you maintain proves intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.)
 
Wudge,

Please take note of the statute and what must be proven for 1st degree murder in Florida as there are only 3 elements and not 4 as you stated. Also premeditation is only one of those elements. I also want to refer you back to People v. Scott in my previous post as to what evidence can be used to prove murder.

Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a) defines First Degree Premeditated Murder. Before
you can find the defendant guilty of First Degree Premeditated Murder, the government
must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1. (Victim) is dead.
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).
3. There was a premeditated killing of (victim).
An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant
to a single design or purpose.


In regards to premeditation:

According to Florida Standard Criminal Jury Instruction 7.1 (2003)

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The
decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the
exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to
kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the
defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.
The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from
the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the
killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the
existence of premeditation at the time of the killing.
If a person has a premeditated design to kill one person and in attempting to kill
that person actually kills another person, the killing is premeditated.

Which in essence means that at the time of the killing once you realize what it is you are doing you have formed intent and thus by this definition have committed premeditation because you have "reflected" upon your action. The computer searches do in my opinion show some premeditation however these searches only help strengthen the case for premeditation and according to the definition above are not actually necessary given the state of Caylee's remains and Casey's actions before and after the murder. Once again premeditation can also form the instant before the actual event. The tape is going to be good evidence as well because it shows that it was applied before decomposition. Once again the jury is going to be able to formulate the opinion that it was place on a live Caylee because there is no reasonable explanation for it to be placed at any other time given the forensics. Personally if I was the defense my main focus would be on that tape. That is going to be the states most important single piece of evidence as seen thus far.

There is clearly enough circumstantial evidence to show that this child being in good health and found dead in the manner in which she was found indicates beyond reasonable doubt that she was murdered. The evidence shows beyond reasonable doubt (by the exclusion of any other reasonable explanation) that Casey is guilty of said murder. The act of committing this offense with reflection of ones actions before the event satisfies all 3 clauses of above statute 782.04(1)(a)
 
To summarize the case I have been talking about (People v. Scott).

The United States case of People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 (1960) held that "circumstantial evidence, when sufficient to exclude every other reasonable hypothesis, may prove the death of a missing person, the existence of a homicide and the guilt of the accused".
 
Welcome.

The complete standard you refer to is "proof" beyond a reasonable doubt, and that proof must be based on the prosecution providing highly reliable evidence that is necessary to support the charge. In this case, the major charge is murder one.

To prove murder one beyond a reasonable doubt, prosecutors must present highly reliable evidence (clear and unyielding) that proves four required elements for a murder one conviction. These four necessary elements that must be proved by the prosecutors producing highly reliable evidence at trial are: intent (wilfull), planning (premeditation), deliberation (consideration) and malice aforethough (evil mind).

It's also important to understand that jurors must deliberate and reach their decision as instructed by the trial judge. Given the facts in this case, a few boilerplate jury instructions bear noting. The first instruction that bears noting is that the judge will tell jurors they are not permitted to speculate. Another key instruction the judge will give to jurors is that if the defense provides a reasonable explanation for an item of circumstantial evidence that prosecutors hold to be inculpatory evidence, jurors must accept the defense's explanation. In other words, if the defense provides a reasonable explanation for an item of evidence, jurors cannot use that evidence to support a guilty verdict (they must "yield" to the defense). This is true even if the prosecution's explanation (view) of the evidence is deemed to be far more reasonable; e.g., 70/30 in favor of the prosecution's view or 80/ 20 or 90/10, etc..

Most importantly, a critical review of the evidence in this case shows that the State has neither a witness nor a confession nor a crime scene nor forensic evidence from a crime scene. Moreover, the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death are unknown as is the mechanism of her death, the place of her death, the cause of her death and the date of her death.

Clearly, many people speak poorly of Casey's behavior and allege it to represent concsiounness of guilt, and many people also hold Casey to have made false and/or misleading statements. Nevertheless, the judge will instruct the jury that, at best, such evidence represents corroborative evidence, not inculpatory evidence. And it's this lack of highly reliable inculpatory evidence that is the basis for my position that the evidence we know of is insufficient to support the State's premeditated murder charge.

(Feel free to lay out the evidence and/or premises you maintain proves intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought.)

Great information. This made me wonder about another thing. There hasn't been any exact method of death yet... as in whether medication or chloroform to knock her out prior to taping the mouth and nose. Also, if there was a possibility that she found Caylee in the pool, no attempt to revive her as 911 was not called, nothing.

Wouldn't any of these circumstances be given the weight of premeditation by how described in your post. Just thinking outloud. From what's been released thus far in document dumps I can not see a way she murdered her without it being pre-med since it appears like asphyxiation. Which in itself gives ample time for kc to have stopped.
 
Wudge,

Please take note of the statute and what must be proven for 1st degree murder in Florida as there are only 3 elements and not 4 as you stated.

SNIP


Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a) defines First Degree Premeditated Murder.


In regards to premeditation:

According to Florida Standard Criminal Jury Instruction 7.1 (2003)

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The
decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the
exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to
kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the
defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.
The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from
the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the
killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the
existence of premeditation at the time of the killing.
If a person has a premeditated design to kill one person and in attempting to kill
that person actually kills another person, the killing is premeditated.

SNIP

Four elements are required to prove premeditated "murder" one (intent, planning, deliberation and malice aforethought). The element absent in your reference to a premediated "killing" is malice aforethought.

Please understand that not all premediated "killings" are unlawful. A person can kill another person (or persons) having intended to, planned to and deliberation on their plan and intent, but, for a lawful "murder" conviction, malice must be proved.

Note: of the four elements, a conviction on murder two (second-degree murder) only requires that malice be proved.

HTH
 
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