"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Jolynna]

I've asked if the evidence reliably proves premeditation. And if so, what is that reliable evidence?

The duct tape.

No parent has ever plastered duct tape over their dead baby's face. Ever. If there's a reason for a parent would do it then show me all the cases where it has happened...

Caylee was alive when KC started taping. She used more than one strip of tape. That is premeditation.

I don't care if KC didn't have her burial site lined up in advance. I don't even care if the duct tape wasn't the actual cause of death. Yes, it is possible that Caylee was also strangled to make things go faster. Or maybe KC tried chloroform first and it didn't work. I don't have to know every detail.

I know enough to know that when KC applied the second strip of tape she didn't intend for Caylee to come out of the situation alive.

Premeditation proved to my satisfaction. KC...guilty.

 

[Balthazar]

How do you know the SA does not have evidence that supports premeditation? That is an assumption.
To date the prosecution has appeared far more competent,professional and prepared than the defense at every hearing.
Judge Strickland has had to hand hold JB through this case.
And remember Todd B.? Now he was problematic and an example of how this defense operates .I don't think the State is in a position to worry.It's the defense that's sweating.
I will support the State and the job they are doing. I think KC is guilty and will get the sentence the State is seeking.

it is also an assumption that evidence that supports premeditation exists. However, we are only discussing the available evidence here as anything else would only be supposition on our part.

As to the defense team, remember Andrea Lyon is now first chair. Baez is of far less importance. Ms. Lyon will put on a formidable defense, IMO.

On a personal note: I'm deeply sorry for the terrible tragedy you have suffered with you son. No one should ever have to go through something like that.

 

[marspiter]

To me, driving around with a dead body in the trunk of your car would not only indicate the lack of a plan, it would suggest shock and/or disorientation. I can envision post-death fluids leaking and tape being used to try and stem fluid flow inside the trunk and onto the carpet.

There is a case here in North Carolina that was all over the news here a number of years ago (about 2001) involving a woman who killed her infant child and placed it in the trash. She killed her baby in a bathroom by suffocating her baby. While she was pregnant she did what she could to conceal her pregnancy much the way KC did. To all of her friends she only looked like she had gained a few pounds. She was already a larger girl and did not look visibly pregnant (unlike Casey).

The night she gave birth she was up partying and drinking heavily with friends. She woke up after everyone else had gone to bed and delivered her baby in the bathroom of the apartment where the party was. She then suffocated the infant by placing one of her hands over the mouth and nose as well as compressing the chest with her other because she felt compressing the chest would cause a quicker death (she was right). Once she delivered and killed the infant she proceeded to place the infant in a trash bag and put it in the trunk of her car. She then cleaned the bathroom (the next morning there was an odor of bleach according to the individuals there and they just figured someone got sick and cleaned it)

She left the baby in the trunk and left early in the morning before anyone awoke and proceeded to go to work. I believe the baby was in her car for 2 days. She waited to dump the body in the dumpster until trash pick up for the business she worked for. The body was found by workers at the landfill and an investigation was launched. The defendant came to the police and gave a fictitious story about a girl she knew in college who was pregnant and that she though it was her baby.

After an investigation into these claims the police started looking more at her. In the end and to make this long story short she plead guilty to second degree murder. I can assure you she was guilty of first degree murder and it was certainly premeditated based on my knowledge of the case.

Given that premeditation can take place in mere moments before the act I would say placing the body in the car does not indicate a lack of premeditation, but actually helps to show that persons frame of mind and supports premeditation. They knew what they did and are now trying to cover it up. Which IMHO covering up a crime speaks volumes about someones guilt.

 

[Mystic]

So far from reading most all of the doc dumps and even playing devil's advocate with different scenerios of SODDI. There is always some piece of evidence.. an interview that disproves anyone but KC doing this.

I realize at this point I don't know what will be put forth at trial from the doc dumps or how it will be presented nor what the defense will present. Yet up to this point with eveything I've seen she is Guilty and it sure was premeditated whether that was minutes, hours or days... but my persumption is that it was an old idea that she decided to go thru with about a day beforehand. She sure does not have any capability in foresight and thus wouldn't have been a good event planner imo

 

[Brini]

This evidence is clearly very problematic for the prosecution.

The ONLY way I can think of that the placement of Caylee's body would evidence premeditation is if there was proof that Casey was setting up a fake kidnapping scenario. The problem with this is that Casey not reporting Caylee missing for 31 days completely dispels the notion that could be what Casey was doing from the begining, because if Casey was setting up a fake kidnapping, she would have reported Caylee missing ASAP. The only other scenario that might work for premeditation - but not on Casey's part - is if Caylee was actually kidnapped and murdered by SOD and was placed off of Suburban to frame Casey.

How is it problematic for the prosecution? It is exactly the sort of "planning" that KC has always done-- none.

KC DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping. KC was not able to do it with any competence. She claimed that she kept silent to protect the baby, whose life was in danger. That was, as we know, a lie. And, not a well-crafted one.

She kept silent because she hoped Caylee's body would no be found.

As for SODDI- we went over that endlessly on another thread. There is no evidence of any SOD. And, if there was a SOD, KC would talk, knowing that she cannot protect Caylee, any more.

She would not remain silent to protect said SOD. She would only keep silent to protect self.

Even her own lawyer said that KC telling what she knows would be detrimental to her.

 

[Brini]

I'm in complete agreement with you here. There is no evidence that reliably supports premeditation. There should not have been a Murder 1 charge, IMO.

That there IS a Murder I charge indicates that the state believes that there is evidence for said charge. This despite your and W's opinions of the evidence.

If the evidence for premeditation, "Doesn't even come close," IMHO the state would not have so filed.

 

[Brini]

KC's first call home when she was arrested:

Kristina: KC, if anything happens to Caylee I'll die (starts to cry)
KC: (in groaning manner) Oh..my...God, I'm sorry but I'm hanging up (or something to that affect)
----
KC: All my family cares about is getting Caylee back, that's all they care about

---------------------
If this doesn't sound like the words of a mother who didn't care that her child was gone, I don't know what does. She may not have spent weeks planning it or where she would bury the body, but she was glad Caylee was dead and this was most likely intentional, even if she didn't "plan so long in advance that she would have had a plan on where to dump the body." I was skeptical on whether or not this was an accident but then I heard this call and am 100% convinced it was premediated, malicious, and she didn't shed one tear for Caylee's death or "disappearance." You can argue "ugly coping" all you want (in terms of the partying) but no one copes by being P/Oed at the fact that people are paying more attention to their missing child than them. This was no accident and now KC is pissed more than ever that Caylee is continuing to steal the spotlight, even after KC got rid of her. IMO all the jury needs to do is hear this chilling phone call and I can almost guarantee she'll get murder 1.

Wasn't too impressive was it.

Young mother states her baby was kidnapped, and she was arrested "on a whim." She calls home. The Family and a friend express concern about Caylee. She pronounces the call, "A total waste," and repeatedly asks for TonE's number.

 

[marspiter]

Even her own lawyer said that KC telling what she knows would be detrimental to her.

Snipped for importance. JB's assessment at that point is spot on and to me is the only truly honest thing that has come from the defense. No smoke and mirrors with that one. Doesn't exactly take a doctorate in astrophysics to read between the lines there.

 

[Brini]

Are you alleging this to be reliable evidence?

AS I said, I believe the baby would be dumped in the nearest familiar area whether murdered or accidently killed. That is typical of KC. She's lazy and does not plan aftermaths well.

 

[Brini]

it is also an assumption that evidence that supports premeditation exists. However, we are only discussing the available evidence here as anything else would only be supposition on our part.

As to the defense team, remember Andrea Lyon is now first chair. Baez is of far less importance. Ms. Lyon will put on a formidable defense, IMO.

On a personal note: I'm deeply sorry for the terrible tragedy you have suffered with you son. No one should ever have to go through something like that.

That state believes they have evidence of premeditation AEB they filed Murder I. Period.

An accident, maybe hot car accident, could be claimed, and could have worked, had the defense done it sooner. Didn't the defense reject an early deal, insisting that KC is entirely innocent?

That KC has never shown shock or grief for Caylee will not help KC with a jury. Nor that she was more concerned with TonE, at the time.

Then, we have the duct tape, which will be very hard to explain.

Then, we have Dr. G's opinion, that it was homicide. That raises suspicion. We will, of course, want to hear her reasoning.

Then, we have KC's partying like she didn't have a problem in the world. Most parents who accidently killed their kid would have to be sedated.

In summary, I think that there is now too much water under the bridge for an accident claim. But, if the defense has one, why haven't they brought it forward? Why did they reject the plea bargain?

 

[MAMABEAR]

It appears from the ME's report that duct tape was across the nose and mouth.If so, it reveals Caylee most likely suffocated.That gave KC time ,while Caylee was dying,to take the tape off.Many minutes to reconsider.
I know you believe it could be reasonbly explained that the tape was put on after death.As a lay person I don't think that will fly.Also,a well respected ME ruled it a homicide.I believe on the stand she will explain why she came to that conclusion and not possible accident.
That's all the evidence we've seen so far.Maybe defense has a resonable explanation,but I don't think so.
My son ,age 15,committed suicide by hanging himself on our stairs.His sister,small brother and a friend were all downstairs.His computer was on a game and he had an open box of cookies next to his chair.Just a couple of hours before he had given my husband a pair of his glasses he needed fixed for school that Monday and a list of fireworks he wanted for that night[New Years Eve].
He probably could have stepped his foot back to a stairtread and stopped everything.We were so confused and sure it was an accident or a cry for help and he was unable to stop it.We even thought maybe it was a prank just to scare his sister and friend. Something must have gone wrong.No one saw it coming. We realized the truth with a tiny bit of evidence...a note found by LE on a stair above him....No explanation,no mention of suicide....just a note giving each friend a heartfelt message and thanking us[his parents]for loving him. That was enough for us to know that our child had impulsively taken his life.But though impulsive he had taken a minute to write a few sentences and get a belt. He meant to go.No thought out plan,obviously[his sister and 5 yr old brother found him],but intended ,nevertheless.

Oh Ms James---I am so very sorry that you and your family had to enter that nightmare. Life ain't fair for the livin---thats fersur.:hug: I lub you Ms James.

My nephew blew his head off---he had laid a big plastic sheet on the floor so his mother didn't have to much of a mess to clean up. When the ambulance peeps got there, she was sittin in the floor and had his feet to her chest, rubbin them and saying how cold he was---over and over.

None of the A's reacted normal. I don't care how much anybody talks about their "grief". Where was the Twilight Zone with these peeps? They had nun. Member when they fought with the protesters? Nobody would be able to go to the yard and interact with peeps like that. Who would care who was outside?

 

[Brini]

So far from reading most all of the doc dumps and even playing devil's advocate with different scenerios of SODDI. There is always some piece of evidence.. an interview that disproves anyone but KC doing this.

I realize at this point I don't know what will be put forth at trial from the doc dumps or how it will be presented nor what the defense will present. Yet up to this point with eveything I've seen she is Guilty and it sure was premeditated whether that was minutes, hours or days... but my persumption is that it was an old idea that she decided to go thru with about a day beforehand. She sure does not have any capability in foresight and thus wouldn't have been a good event planner imo

Yeah, she wouldda tried to plan the event, ON THE DAY of said event, and without having chosen a site!;-)

 

[Brini]

Oh Ms James---I am so very sorry that you and your family had to enter that nightmare. Life ain't fair for the livin---thats fersur.:hug: I lub you Ms James.

My nephew blew his head off---he had laid a big plastic sheet on the floor so his mother didn't have to much of a mess to clean up. When the ambulance peeps got there, she was sittin in the floor and had his feet to her chest, rubbin them and saying how cold he was---over and over.

None of the A's reacted normal. I don't care how much anybody talks about their "grief". Where was the Twilight Zone with these peeps? They had nun. Member when they fought with the protesters? Nobody would be able to go to the yard and interact with peeps like that. Who would care who was outside?

When did the family ever plead with the "kidnapper" to return Caylee, either?

 

[Balthazar]

How is it problematic for the prosecution? It is exactly the sort of "planning" that KC has always done-- none.

KC DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping. KC was not able to do it with any competence. She claimed that she kept silent to protect the baby, whose life was in danger. That was, as we know, a lie. And, not a well-crafted one.

She kept silent because she hoped Caylee's body would no be found.

As for SODDI- we went over that endlessly on another thread. There is no evidence of any SOD. And, if there was a SOD, KC would talk, knowing that she cannot protect Caylee, any more.

She would not remain silent to protect said SOD. She would only keep silent to protect self.

Even her own lawyer said that KC telling what she knows would be detrimental to her.

For the Prosecutors to claim that Casey faked a kidnapping, there must be significant evidence to support that allegation.

Casey has kept silent on the advice of her attorney from July 16 on. That cannot be construed as evidence of guilt. It may be that what occurred was an accident and/or there are valid reasons for withholding this information until trial which might include a SOD among many other possibilities. We don't know what the defense will be. We can only consider the evidence that has been revealed.

But, let's put your supposition to the test and list the evidence that Casey was trying to setup a fake kidnapping. I'll even help you get started with the pieces I think could fit:

1. Someone in the Anthony household looked up a missing children website.
2. Casey said that ZFG took Caylee.
3. Casey told her family that Caylee was taken to teach her a lesson.

What else can you add? Do you see premeditation of a kidnapping plot in the months prior to Caylee's disappearance?

 

[Brini]

For the Prosecutors to claim that Casey faked a kidnapping, there must be significant evidence to support that allegation.

Casey has kept silent on the advice of her attorney from July 16 on. That cannot be construed as evidence of guilt. It may be that what occurred was an accident and/or there are valid reasons for withholding this information until trial which might include a SOD among many other possibilities. We don't know what the defense will be. We can only consider the evidence that has been revealed.

But, let's put your supposition to the test and list the evidence that Casey was trying to setup a fake kidnapping. I'll even help you get started with the pieces I think could fit:

1. Someone in the Anthony household looked up a missing children website.
2. Casey said that ZFG took Caylee.
3. Casey told her family that Caylee was taken to teach her a lesson.

What else can you add? Do you see premeditation of a kidnapping plot in the months prior to Caylee's disappearance?

Princess, there WAS no kidnapping. There is no ZFG. That defense fell apart MONTHS ago. Even the A's are not pushing that story, anymore.

 

[Balthazar]

That there IS a Murder I charge indicates that the state believes that there is evidence for said charge. This despite your and W's opinions of the evidence.

If the evidence for premeditation, "Doesn't even come close," IMHO the state would not have so filed.

Charges in notorious criminal cases are highly politicized. If the general public demands the charge, it will be made regardless of if it fits the situation or not. Remember that the Public Defender is an elected official in Florida. The Public Defender and his/her team are going to do what the public wants particularily in an infamous crime such as this one.

 

[Balthazar]

Princess, there WAS no kidnapping. There is no ZFG. That defense fell apart MONTHS ago. Even the A's are not pushing that story, anymore.

YOU claimed that there was evidence that Casey was trying to setup a fake kidnapping, so I asked you to explain what that evidence is as I don't really see it.

This is quoted from you post above:

"KC DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping. KC was not able to do it with any competence. She claimed that she kept silent to protect the baby, whose life was in danger. That was, as we know, a lie. And, not a well-crafted one."

So I am asking you for EVIDENCE that Casey attempted to setup a fake kidnapping. What evidence would the prosecution use to prove that Casey tried to setup a fake kidnapping? Without substantive evidence, they cannot make that claim and I'm saying, I don't see anything substantial enough to prove that is what she was doing. You say Casey DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping, so I'm asking you for the evidence that shows that.

 

[marspiter]

For the Prosecutors to claim that Casey faked a kidnapping, there must be significant evidence to support that allegation.

Well there is Casey's own admission that Caylee was indeed kidnapped. Yeah those Miranda warnings are a real dozy. You know the whole part about what you say can be used against you.

If I'm not mistaken there is several admissions to a kidnapping in both verbal and written statements from Casey. There was a constant spouting of a kidnapping from the parents as well. Yet no one made any pleas to a kidnapper. Besides the kidnapper is fake and I think pretty much all of America is sure on that one.

Lets not even get into the fact that LE could throw a multitude of different charges at her which sadly they haven't. Every lie she made to LE is a class 2 misdemeanor here in NC, or False report to LE. Then there is perjury which is a felony and then there is subornation of perjury which is another felony, Resisting, delaying, or obstructing an officer (remember the car chase in JB's BMW). I mean seriously you could stack enough charges on this girl that she's not going to see the light outside prison for a very long time.

 

[Themis]

YOU claimed that there was evidence that Casey was trying to setup a fake kidnapping, so I asked you to explain what that evidence is as I don't really see it.

This is quoted from you post above:

"KC DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping. KC was not able to do it with any competence. She claimed that she kept silent to protect the baby, whose life was in danger. That was, as we know, a lie. And, not a well-crafted one."

So I am asking you for EVIDENCE that Casey attempted to setup a fake kidnapping. What evidence would the prosecution use to prove that Casey tried to setup a fake kidnapping? Without substantive evidence, they cannot make that claim and I'm saying, I don't see anything substantial enough to prove that is what she was doing. You say Casey DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping, so I'm asking you for the evidence that shows that.

I know you didn't ask me, but KC's statements to LE are evidence. KC herself told LE there had been a kidnapping by ZG. That is the evidence.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

YOU claimed that there was evidence that Casey was trying to setup a fake kidnapping, so I asked you to explain what that evidence is as I don't really see it.

This is quoted from you post above:

"KC DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping. KC was not able to do it with any competence. She claimed that she kept silent to protect the baby, whose life was in danger. That was, as we know, a lie. And, not a well-crafted one."

So I am asking you for EVIDENCE that Casey attempted to setup a fake kidnapping. What evidence would the prosecution use to prove that Casey tried to setup a fake kidnapping? Without substantive evidence, they cannot make that claim and I'm saying, I don't see anything substantial enough to prove that is what she was doing. You say Casey DID attempt to set up a fake kidnapping, so I'm asking you for the evidence that shows that.

Lest we forget the One Tree Hill searches? That is pretty damning.