"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Jolynna]

We won't ever know for sure whether or not Scott killed Laci at his house or bound her and threw her in the bay alive.

Or if Jessica was killed before or after she was buried?

It is VERY, VERY possible to conclude homicide without being able to pinpoint the exact mechanism used to kill.

 

[Themis]

We won't ever know for sure whether or not Scott killed Laci at his house or bound her and threw her in the bay alive.

Or if Jessica was killed before or after she was buried?

It is VERY, VERY possible to conclude homicide without being able to pinpoint the exact mechanism used to kill.

That is right, Jolynna. It is not about mathmatical certainty or being 100% sure. That kind of perfect, actual knowledge is not the standard in criminal law. Criminal law is about social resolution and whether or not the government is authorized to use the government's immense power to punish. That is all that it is about.

 

[Jolynna]

Homicide does equal murder.

Homicide means somebody killed Caylee. No possibility of illness. It wasn't an accident.

 

[Wudge]

Homicide means somebody killed Caylee. No possibility of illness. It wasn't an accident.

Caylee's face was wrapped in duct tape.

If something else didn't kill Caylee, the duct tape alone would have done it. Taping up a child's face in layers is a premeditated act.

That is all I need to know.

If it was a homicide, you're right. Somebody killed Caylee. If it was a death due to injury, "undetermined" is one of the four general categories for death due to injury.

I have commented previously on the anonmaly that exists between the M.E. concluding the manner of death was a homicide (instead of "undetermined") without concluding on the cause of death or the mechanism of death.

I anticipate a lengthy and withering cross-examination of the M.E..

 

[Balthazar]

But applying tape after death just doesn't make sense.

Unless it was done to fake a kidnapping scenario or perhaps because Caylee's mouth was gaping open or because there was a soft tissue injury that someone wanted to cover up.

 

[Balthazar]

If Caylee died by accident, why have KC and her attorney not come forward with this explanation, long ago? Why did he let her get charged w/ murder I? Why did he refuse to plea bargain?

Again, the reasoning may be that this is something better explained in a courtroom.

Why did he announce that any explanation by KC would be harmful to her?

He said that because once Casey was arrested, anything she says can and will be used against her.

Doesn't make sense, Princess.

On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Only a fool would allow his client to continue to speak to police after the client has already lied to police. The ONLY thing that could come from that would be additional charges.

 

[Flossie JMO]

I guess I don't see how tape shows a fake kidnap scenario.

 

[wonders]

If it was a homicide, you're right. Somebody killed Caylee. If it was a death due to injury, "undetermined" is one of the four general categories for death due to injury.

I have commented previously on the anonmaly that exists between the M.E. concluding the manner of death was a homicide (instead of "undetermined") without concluding on the cause of death or the mechanism of death.

I anticipate a lengthy and withering cross-examination of the M.E..

Applying not 1 but several strips of duct tape to a persons face...I don't know but common sense tells me homicide.

 

[Balthazar]

(Respectfully snipped) After re-reading your list of facts above, I have to say that none of those things disprove premed. I don't see why you think they do. All of those actions and events described above (w/ the exception of #5, in which I think you meant to type June 15) occured AFTER the murder. All actions taken by a murderer after a killing are to ensure they don't get caught. What you have laid out above in 1-9 are just behaviors and actions KC took to prevent getting caught; they don't disprove premed. As for #5, the big blowout between her and CA........that doesn't disprove premed either. On the contrary, I think it made her so enraged, she then acted on that rage, a rage and resentment that had been brewing.

IMO, we can beat this nag and send her to the glue factory, but the duct tape is going to nail her.

Nothing on the list was meant to disprove premeditation. The list was facts that support a planned staged kidnapping and a separate list of facts that support that no plan was made to stage a kidnapping. The facts supporting that a plan was made to stage a kidnapping are significantly weaker than those supporting no kidnapping plan.

 

[MissJames]

If it was a homicide, you're right. Somebody killed Caylee. If it was a death due to injury, "undetermined" is one of the four general categories for death due to injury.

I have commented previously on the anonmaly that exists between the M.E. concluding the manner of death was a homicide (instead of "undetermined") without concluding on the cause of death or the mechanism of death.

I anticipate a lengthy and withering cross-examination of the M.E..

She will hold up just fine.It's her forte'. She doesn't have a dog in the fight.She doesn't determine who did it. She determines the manner of death.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

Nothing on the list was meant to disprove premeditation. The list was facts that support a planned staged kidnapping and a separate list of facts that support that no plan was made to stage a kidnapping. The facts supporting that a plan was made to stage a kidnapping are significantly weaker than those supporting no kidnapping plan.

I'm confused. Here is what you posted:

(I've snipped the first portion of your post that had the first 9 facts listed.)


Evidence to the contrary - this evidence indicates that this was likely a crime that was committed in the absence of premeditation and that Casey did not originally intend to setup a fake kidnapping, but just used that as an excuse when confronted by Cindy:

1. Not reporting Caylee missing for 31 days
2. Not acting like the mother of a kidnapped child
3. Not begging for the child's safe return
4. Refusing to explain what happened in such a way that would make any sense whatsoever due to a lack of a pre-planned cohesive story
5. Blow up with Cindy on July 15, 2008
6. Avoiding parents, LE and anyone who could help with "missing child" for 31 days
7. Lying about child's whereabouts to anyone who asked for 31 days
8. Making stuff up as she goes along (changing story)
9. Only mentioning ZFG took Caylee when confronted by Cindy

Please suggest any further evidence that speaks to premeditation or lack of premeditation.

BBM So, were #s 1-9 arguing for or against premed? I took your post to mean, as I bolded above, that those facts you enumerated argued against premed. You stated "in the absence of premeditation", so that is what I was posting to. I don't feel those points/facts disprove premed.

 

[Tuba]

The premeditation of this murder is not dependent on how well concocted was the nanny kidnapping fabrication or how neat the complaint against her, filed by Casey Anthony. The defendant might have said, "I woke up in the morning and Caylee wasn't there." The disposal of Lacy was not well planned either, just transport her to the bay and dump her. Olga Duncan's mother in-law killed her with premeditation and put the body on the floor of a land project. Leah Hickman was stuffed into the crawl space of her very apartment basement. In the Billings murders and the Husted murders, the couples were left in place, just where they were killed. How you solve, plan or do not plan after the fact in no way determines whether you formed the intent to kill at the time of a murder. These two stages of the crime should not be confused even in terms of the thought behind them.

Not all murders are slow and careful like arsenic poisoning but as in "I don't like the way you look tonight", a reach for a loaded gun and firing so that po faced victim dies, is also premeditated.

 

[Jolynna]

Unless it was done to fake a kidnapping scenario or perhaps because Caylee's mouth was gaping open or because there was a soft tissue injury that someone wanted to cover up.

As for the fake kidnapping, KC did nothing to stage it. Your list of reasons why KC most likely came up with the "nanny took her" story when trapped by Lee was spot on. I agree with you.

KC did nothing to point to a kidnapping either before or after Caylee was dead. She came up with "nanny has her" because she couldn't lead LE to Caylee on July 15. She knew Caylee was dead. She knew Caylee was duct-taped too. That is why she couldn't make a deal before Caylee was found (IMO). She would have had to lead LE to Caylee's body.

If Laci, Jessica or any other victim had been found with their faces layered with duct tape would there be debates about whether the tape was put on before or after death? Would "I put duct tape over Laci's mouth to stop post mortem leakage" have been a realistic consideration coming from Scott's mouth?

 

[Balthazar]

I guess I don't see how tape shows a fake kidnap scenario.

Casey's thinking is so sociopathic, she may have thought of using her daughter's death for her own gain by staging a fake kidnapping, therefore garnering her mother's sympathy and that of everyone else. Casey may have even thought she would become famous as the sympathetic mother of a kidnapped child and then all her problems would be solved. In this scenario, after Casey found Caylee dead, or killed her accidentally, as the case may be, Casey chose to apply tape to Caylee's face to make it look like a stranger abduction - the police were supposed to think that a stranger taped Caylee's mouth - for surely her grieving mother wouldn't do that. But for some reason, Casey didn't carry through with the plan and never went to police with her story and after 31 days, it really was too late to do that. So when Cindy cornered her, Casey was unprepared and spouted some garbage from the never fully concocted kidnap story she had imagined, but had not thoroughly reasoned out.

 

[Balthazar]

I'm confused. Here is what you posted:

(I've snipped the first portion of your post that had the first 9 facts listed.)


Evidence to the contrary - this evidence indicates that this was likely a crime that was committed in the absence of premeditation and that Casey did not originally intend to setup a fake kidnapping, but just used that as an excuse when confronted by Cindy:

1. Not reporting Caylee missing for 31 days
2. Not acting like the mother of a kidnapped child
3. Not begging for the child's safe return
4. Refusing to explain what happened in such a way that would make any sense whatsoever due to a lack of a pre-planned cohesive story
5. Blow up with Cindy on July 15, 2008
6. Avoiding parents, LE and anyone who could help with "missing child" for 31 days
7. Lying about child's whereabouts to anyone who asked for 31 days
8. Making stuff up as she goes along (changing story)
9. Only mentioning ZFG took Caylee when confronted by Cindy

Please suggest any further evidence that speaks to premeditation or lack of premeditation.

BBM So, were #s 1-9 arguing for or against premed? I took your post to mean, as I bolded above, that those facts you enumerated argued against premed. You stated "in the absence of premeditation", so that is what I was posting to. I don't feel those points/facts disprove premed.

This list disproves the likelihood that Casey was setting up a fake kidnapping scenario as a part of premeditation of the murder of Caylee. There are many other things that can enter into premeditation, however. I'm being extremely precise as to the interpretation of the list.

 

[Balthazar]

The premeditation of this murder is not dependent on how well concocted was the nanny kidnapping fabrication or how neat the complaint against her, filed by Casey Anthony. The defendant might have said, "I woke up in the morning and Caylee wasn't there." The disposal of Lacy was not well planned either, just transport her to the bay and dump her. Olga Duncan's mother in-law killed her with premeditation and put the body on the floor of a land project. Leah Hickman was stuffed into the crawl space of her very apartment basement. In the Billings murders and the Husted murders, the couples were left in place, just where they were killed. How you solve, plan or do not plan after the fact in no way determines whether you formed the intent to kill at the time of a murder. These two stages of the crime should not be confused even in terms of the thought behind them.

Not all murders are slow and careful like arsenic poisoning but as in "I don't like the way you look tonight", a reach for a loaded gun and firing so that po faced victim dies, is also premeditated.

I agree with you. I was just examining the faked kidnapping theory as to it's relevance in indicating premeditation in Caylee's murder. That's why I'm being very precise in the interpretation of the list. There are many other elements that might lend themselves to indicate premeditation in other ways in this case. However, of the evidence that has been revealed with no speculation as to it's meanting shows evidence of premeditation is not as strong as the evidence that this was not a premeditated crime.

 

[Brini]

Testimony by an eyewitness is direct evidence and carries the weight of inculpatory evidence. Likewise, a confession is direct evidence that carries the weight of inculpatory evidence. In Caylee's case, no direct evidence exists.

The post-death evidence I referred to (on another thread) was post-death behavioral evidence and post-death lies to LE, both of which are circumstantial evidence that be used as but corroborative evidence. Moreover, lying to LE about an untrue kidnapping could be admitted as consciousness of guilt, however, it does not follow that any such guilt stemmed from Casey committing murder one.

Yet, post-death behavior led to convictions for murder one in the SP and DD cases, with LESS circumstantial evidence than in the CA case. And, there was no cause of death found in the SP case.

Honey, you can bandy inculpatory vs exculpatory all day. The jury will make its decision based on the facts of the case.

I know that no lawyer or judge has ever handed me a chart with the evidence sorted into I v. E.

 

[Brini]

Casey's thinking is so sociopathic, she may have thought of using her daughter's death for her own gain by staging a fake kidnapping, therefore garnering her mother's sympathy and that of everyone else. Casey may have even thought she would become famous as the sympathetic mother of a kidnapped child and then all her problems would be solved. In this scenario, after Casey found Caylee dead, or killed her accidentally, as the case may be, Casey chose to apply tape to Caylee's face to make it look like a stranger abduction - the police were supposed to think that a stranger taped Caylee's mouth - for surely her grieving mother wouldn't do that. But for some reason, Casey didn't carry through with the plan and never went to police with her story and after 31 days, it really was too late to do that. So when Cindy cornered her, Casey was unprepared and spouted some garbage from the never fully concocted kidnap story she had imagined, but had not thoroughly reasoned out.

Caylee wasn't killed accidently, per the ME.

 

[Brini]

Applying not 1 but several strips of duct tape to a persons face...I don't know but common sense tells me homicide.

While completely covering the respiratory orifaces-- ALL of them.

 

[MissJames]

Here's the thing.....At this late stage no one is going to buy the accident defense.I don't think the defense will use it.Up until Caylee's body was found JB was out there saying they expected Caylee to be found alive.The A's had people who had seen Caylee.Caylee is alive was the theme,so it's too late to go back and say there was an accident.
That leaves the SODDI defense and that has an entire thread on why it won't work.Also,AL is known for not liking that defense because it leaves less chance during sentencing to claim mitigating factors.
So the evidence is still linked to KC and the circumstances aren't conducive to an accident.
We are left with skeletal remains and strips of duct tape on the face. I don't think jurors are going to be looking for ways to explain this as anything other than murder.Not when the whole story is laid out before them.
Guilty