"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[DotsEyes]

I've never been on a jury. How does that work? If they come back with a guilty verdict, do they have to explain how they reached their decision?

No. They do not have to ever say a word.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Casey's thinking is so sociopathic, she may have thought of using her daughter's death for her own gain by staging a fake kidnapping, therefore garnering her mother's sympathy and that of everyone else. Casey may have even thought she would become famous as the sympathetic mother of a kidnapped child and then all her problems would be solved. In this scenario, after Casey found Caylee dead, or killed her accidentally, as the case may be, Casey chose to apply tape to Caylee's face to make it look like a stranger abduction - the police were supposed to think that a stranger taped Caylee's mouth - for surely her grieving mother wouldn't do that. But for some reason, Casey didn't carry through with the plan and never went to police with her story and after 31 days, it really was too late to do that. So when Cindy cornered her, Casey was unprepared and spouted some garbage from the never fully concocted kidnap story she had imagined, but had not thoroughly reasoned out.

Hmm, trying to follow, so KC did not go with the stranger kidnap story, but rather the ZG kidnap story? And the tape was not needed for the ZG story but was for the fake kidnap story?

 

[Balthazar]

Caylee wasn't killed accidently, per the ME.

It's going to be pretty tough for the ME to prove that. The ME has no evidence that explains how Caylee died. She's going to have a tough time explaining how she ruled this a homicide without any physical evidence that it actually was a homicide rather than a death by undetermined causes. Basically, she will be left with the explanation that she decided it was a homicide because of how and where the body was found and because of the duct tape on the face which led her to believe that a crime had been committed. But that is an assumption, not cold hard facts. Her job as a scientist is to provide scientifically provable facts to the police, not guess at the interpretation of the evidence. She has already contradicted herself by saying she could not determine cause of death. As Wudge said, expect a "withering cross-examination."

 

[Balthazar]

Hmm, trying to follow, so KC did not go with the stranger kidnap story, but rather the ZG kidnap story? And the tape was not needed for the ZG story but was for the fake kidnap story?

Casey may have meant the ZFG kidnap story to be THE kidnap story but never really worked through the whole story to get all the details straight since she was so busy with TL at the time.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Dam---ya'll have been talkin so far above my ole head but I have grabbed this:

Ok---she did not create the nanny story until later---meaning that the baby was killed before the nanny took Caylee. So this means that she taped the baby's face up which (since) there was no kidnapper who put that tape on baby then KC did it. Since she didn't have a kidnapping on her mind at the time of death---there was no reason for her to tap baby's mouth "after she died. Conclusion---the b!tch taped the baby's face before death. If she was trying to stop leakage---by the time the leakage started then the tape wouldn't have stuck to a squashy baby's face.

P.S.
the trash bags took care of the leakage---until she could throw the kid to nature. Grrrr! The more I read about this---the madder I get at KC

 

[marspiter]

Seriously unless someone is hard-core pro-defense no matter the situation, evidence, or what have you, I think its pretty much a consensus that Casey is going to be found guilty of 1st degree murder. For those playing devil's advocate and arguing it was some other person or an accident I would certainly love to see the evidence.

The majority opinion on this forum has pretty much defended its opinion of Casey's guilt till the cows have come home, turned on the tv and sat on the couch. This opinion has been defended by case citation after case citation. Evidence from this case has been pointed to analyzed and rehashed over and over.

If there is a theory on accident or SODDI which has evidence that can prove as such I would personally like to see it. If you have a link showing this please feel free.

A devil's advocate can stand back and tear apart someone else's opinion all day long (If you want me to argue why the sky isn't blue I can certainly do it all day.) However its much more difficult to defend your own opinion with fact and evidence. So once again please show me the evidence of an accident or SODDI as the evidence to Casey's guilt has pretty much been shown and exhausted. Either you get it and your just playing devil's advocate or you don't.

This is not directed to one person in general. I simply think the topic has been exhausted and I have not seen any evidence showing anything other then Casey's guilt. This is a forum and not a court law so in this case the pro-defense also has to prove their point just like the pro-prosecution stance does if not then its really not a debate with equal evidence on both side but merely an attack on one opinion.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Casey may have meant the ZFG kidnap story to be THE kidnap story but never really worked through the whole story to get all the details straight since she was so busy with TL at the time.

Could be, we may never know, however I do believe she used the tape to murder Caylee.

 

[DotsEyes]

How do we know it was premeditated? Here are a few things that come to mind:

As soon as the thought of duck tape came into her head, there was premeditation,
As she wrapped the tape around the baby's mouth and nose, she had a chance to stop herself, she didn't,
In the minutes it took for Caylee to die, KC had the chance to undo the damage, she didn't,
The heart sticker was the cherry on the sundae, meaning "it's finished",
KC was happier after Caylee's death than before.

 

[Brini]

(Respectfully snipped) After re-reading your list of facts above, I have to say that none of those things disprove premed. I don't see why you think they do. All of those actions and events described above (w/ the exception of #5, in which I think you meant to type June 15) occured AFTER the murder. All actions taken by a murderer after a killing are to ensure they don't get caught. What you have laid out above in 1-9 are just behaviors and actions KC took to prevent getting caught; they don't disprove premed. As for #5, the big blowout between her and CA........that doesn't disprove premed either. On the contrary, I think it made her so enraged, she then acted on that rage, a rage and resentment that had been brewing.

IMO, we can beat this nag and send her to the glue factory, but the duct tape is going to nail her.

Yes. The duct tape was overkill. There is no necessity to use several layers of duct tape, covering the nose AND mouth, unless killing is the goal.

Moreover, it takes a few minutes to tear off and place layers of duct tape.

After ONE layer, one would have had he opportunity to say to oneself, "OMG! WHAT am I doing?"

To apply two more layers is murder one.

And, because of Caylee's age, it's special circumstances.

 

[Jolynna]

Casey didn't put duct-tape on Caylee to point to a kidnapper so she would be a victim. Casey did everything she could to keep anyone from looking for Caylee.

"Caylee's at Seaworld, Universal, Hard Rock Hotel, playing with Zach at the beach."
"Caylee is fine, she's sleeping. I don't want to disrupt her schedule."
"I talked to Caylee today. She sounded great."
"Give me one more day."

What part of "Give me one more day" or any of KC's lies, listed above in italics, sounds like KC was relishing the forthcoming attention and sympathy?

Far from using her kidnapped child to get sympathy, Yuri said KC didn't even use the word kidnapper when talking to LE on July 15/16.

 

[yolorado]

That is right, Jolynna. It is not about mathmatical certainty or being 100% sure. That kind of perfect, actual knowledge is not the standard in criminal law. Criminal law is about social resolution and whether or not the government is authorized to use the government's immense power to punish. That is all that it is about.

Right, and it's not about parsing every word in every legal document known to man or throwing around important sounding legal terminology, or it shouldn't be. It should be about applying reason and sanity and societal knowledge and wisdom to resolve matters before us having to do with the possibility that one individual took the liberty and life of another indivual. Words are just words. Justice underlying them, running through them, should be our goal, for victims and society as well as for accused and criminals.

 

[Brini]

How do we know it was premeditated? Here are a few things that come to mind:

As soon as the thought of duck tape came into her head, there was premeditation,
As she wrapped the tape around the baby's mouth and nose, she had a chance to stop herself, she didn't,
In the minutes it took for Caylee to die, KC had the chance to undo the damage, she didn't,
The heart sticker was the cherry on the sundae, meaning "it's finished",
KC was happier after Caylee's death than before.

And, AH said KC stole her duct tape, out of her purse. Is that when KC got the idea?

 

[marspiter]

It's not about parsing every word in every legal document known to man or throwing around important sounding legal terminology, or it shouldn't be. It should be about applying reason and sanity and societal knowledge and wisdom to resolve matters before us having to do with the possibility that one individual took the liberty and life of another indivual. Words are just words. Justice underlying them, running through them, should be our goal, for victims and society as well as for accused and criminals.

This I completely and totally agree with. This is what our justice system should be about. Not who has the best high priced attorney with a golden tongue, or who can play the "game" better whether it be prosecution or defense.

 

[Brini]

Hmm, trying to follow, so KC did not go with the stranger kidnap story, but rather the ZG kidnap story? And the tape was not needed for the ZG story but was for the fake kidnap story?

Don't try too hard to figure out KC's convolutions. It will make your head hurt.

 

[MissJames]

Casey's thinking is so sociopathic, she may have thought of using her daughter's death for her own gain by staging a fake kidnapping, therefore garnering her mother's sympathy and that of everyone else. Casey may have even thought she would become famous as the sympathetic mother of a kidnapped child and then all her problems would be solved. In this scenario, after Casey found Caylee dead, or killed her accidentally, as the case may be, Casey chose to apply tape to Caylee's face to make it look like a stranger abduction - the police were supposed to think that a stranger taped Caylee's mouth - for surely her grieving mother wouldn't do that. But for some reason, Casey didn't carry through with the plan and never went to police with her story and after 31 days, it really was too late to do that. So when Cindy cornered her, Casey was unprepared and spouted some garbage from the never fully concocted kidnap story she had imagined, but had not thoroughly reasoned out.

How could the defense put this story forth to the jury without putting KC on the stand.There has to be a basis.

 

[MissJames]

Right, and it's not about parsing every word in every legal document known to man or throwing around important sounding legal terminology, or it shouldn't be. It should be about applying reason and sanity and societal knowledge and wisdom to resolve matters before us having to do with the possibility that one individual took the liberty and life of another indivual. Words are just words. Justice underlying them, running through them, should be our goal, for victims and society as well as for accused and criminals.

:blowkiss:
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Marina2]

What if a skeleton was found, wrapped in plastic bags with a hole in the skull that was determined to be from a gunshot wound. Is the ME expected to put "undetermined" as the manner of death because he doesn't have proof that this wasn't a self-inflicted wound?

Would a jury question the credibility of a ME if he concluded "homicide" rather than "undetermined" since there's nothing to show that suicide didn't occur?

Add to the scenario that those who should have reported this man missing never did. They went on to lie and deceive investigators in an apparent attempt to prevent inculpatory evidence from being found. Is it really that wrong for the ME to look at all the events surrounding this death and conclude homicide even though suicide has not been ruled out?

I look forward to the cross exam of the ME and I don't expect it to be withering. I think she'll give very logical reasons why she concluded "homicide" rather than "undetermined".

 

[Marina2]

I think that there will be evidence presented that shows the tape was placed before death. It seems with all the forensic technology we have today there should be some way to determine this. IMO, this is what brought the death penalty back. Duct tape alone wouldn't do it but proof that it was placed prior to death would be pretty good evidence of premeditated murder and enough to legally bring back the death penalty.

 

[marspiter]

And, because of Caylee's age, it's special circumstances.

*snipped*

Yes Caylee's age is going to be of special importance. Were not talking about an adult that can take care of themselves. She was less then 2 yrs old and required assistance for even her most basic of needs. She was last left in the care of her mother Casey.

That is going to be the big thing that is running in the jurors heads. One can argue semantics and spout legalese all day long but at the end of the day a defenseless child was killed and the jury is going to want answers not smoke and mirrors.

 

[MissJames]

I think that there will be evidence presented that shows the tape was placed before death. It seems with all the forensic technology we have today there should be some way to determine this. IMO, this is what brought the death penalty back. Duct tape alone wouldn't do it but proof that it was placed prior to death would be pretty good evidence of premeditated murder and enough to legally bring back the death penalty.

ITA with you. Dr. G on the stand will be a not to miss moment. Her testimony will be enlightening.