"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

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Guilty V Not Guilty & What Level

  • Guilty 1st Degree Murder - Totally Premeditated

    Votes: 530 79.3%
  • Guilty 2cnd Degree Murder

    Votes: 58 8.7%
  • Guilty Manslaughter - Not premeditated but during a Rage attack or a snapped moment

    Votes: 61 9.1%
  • Not Guilty - Complete Accident

    Votes: 11 1.6%
  • Completely Innocent

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    668
  • Poll closed .
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I looked up the State v. Merkouris 1956 California Supreme Court case -- the case that resulted in the above jury instruction. It had some interesting language that refutes the concept that the jury is supposed to assign a numerical percentage -- like 70% prosecution and 30% defense results in a verdict of acquittal. The standard is when two or more conclusions can be drawn from the circumstantial evidence both or all of them are reasonable (no numerical weighting) then reasonable doubt arises and the burden of beyond a reasonable doubt is not met, hence the acquittal. However, look at the precise language of the case.

"Defendant's offered instruction was refused because the trial court felt that it was not good law in that it "virtually says that when the evidence is equally balanced the defendant is entitled to a verdict of acquittal" and because it was in conflict with the reasonable doubt instruction. [16] In a criminal case the prosecution must prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, if the evidence is equally balanced, the defendant is entitled to an acquittal. Further, there is in the proposed instruction nothing inconsistent with the instruction on reasonable doubt. The offered [46 Cal.2d 563] instruction was a correct statement of the applicable law and should have been given." [Emphasis added.] (People v. Merkouris, (1956) 46 Cal.2d, 560 at 562-563.)
 
Here's the entire discussion of the topic in the Merkouris case.


Two Reasonable Theories Instruction
[15] It is next contended that the trial court erred in refusing to instruct the jury concerning its duty if the evidence was susceptible of two reasonable theories.
Defendant offered this instruction: "If the evidence in this case is susceptible of two constructions or interpretations, each of which appears to you to be reasonable, and one of which points to the guilt of the defendant, and the other to his innocence, it is your duty, under the law, to adopt that interpretation which will admit of the defendant's innocence, and reject that which points to his guilt.
"You will notice that this rule applies only when both of the two possible opposing conclusions appear to you to be reasonable. If, on the other hand, one of the possible conclusions should appear to you to be reasonable and the other to be unreasonable, it would be your duty to adhere to the reasonable deduction and to reject the unreasonable, bearing in mind, however, that even if the reasonable deduction points to defendant's guilt, the entire proof must carry the convincing force required by law to support a verdict of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."
The court instructed the jury as follows: "A defendant in a criminal action is presumed to be innocent until the contrary is proved, and in case of a reasonable doubt whether his guilt is satisfactorily shown, he is entitled to an acquittal, but the effect of this presumption is only to place upon the State the burden of proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt is defined as follows: It is not a mere possible doubt; because everything relating to human affairs, and depending on moral evidence, is open to [46 Cal.2d 561] some possible or imaginary doubt. It is that state of the case which, after the entire comparison and consideration of all the evidence, leaves the minds of the jurors in that conviction that they cannot say they feel an abiding conviction, to a moral certainty, of the truth of the charge."
"Two classes of evidence are recognized and admitted in courts of justice, upon either or both of which, juries lawfully may base their findings, whether favorable to the People or to the defendant, provided, however, that to support a verdict of guilt, the evidence, whether of one kind or the other, or a combination of both, must carry the convincing quality required by law, as stated in my instructions.
"One type of evidence is known as direct and the other as circumstantial. The law makes no distinction between the two classes as to the degree of proof required for conviction or as to their effectiveness in defendant's favor, but respects each for such convincing force as it may carry and accepts each as a reasonable method of proof.
"Direct evidence of a person's conduct at any time in question consists of the testimony of every witness who, with any of his own physical senses, perceived such conduct or any part thereof, and which testimony describes or relates what thus was perceived. All other evidence admitted in the trial is circumstantial in relation to such conduct, and, in so far as it shows any act, statement or other conduct, or any circumstance or fact tending to prove, by reasonable inference the innocence or guilt of the defendant, it may be considered by you in arriving at a verdict."
"I instruct you further that you are not permitted, on circumstantial evidence alone, to find the defendant guilty of the crime charged against him unless the proved circumstances not only are consistent with the hypothesis that the defendant is guilty of the crime, but are irreconcilable with any other rational conclusion." (Emphasis added.)
In People v. Bender, 27 Cal.2d 164, 175, 177 [163 P.2d 8] (relied upon by defendant) we said in holding that the trial court should give an instruction of its own motion embodying the principle " 'that, to justify a conviction, the facts or circumstances must not only be entirely consistent with the theory of guilt but must be inconsistent with any other rational conclusion.' " (8 Cal.Jur. 371, § 405.) We also said there that the jury had been told that " 'If the evidence in this case is susceptible of two constructions or interpretations, [46 Cal.2d 562] each of which appears to you to be reasonable, and one of which points to the guilt of the defendant, and the other to his innocence, it is your duty, under the law, to adopt that interpretation which will admit of the defendant's innocence, and reject that which points to his guilt.' This instruction is eminently proper as far as it goes. To it should have been added a direct statement of the precise principle under discussion." (Emphasis added.) It will be noted that in the case under consideration, the "precise principle" was given to the jury, but the instruction which was given in the Bender case was here omitted. In the Bender case, we held that under the facts there presented, the failure to instruct fully was not ground for reversal.
The evidence here is entirely circumstantial. No murder weapon (or weapons) were ever found; no fingerprints matching those of defendant were found in the ceramics shop. The most incriminating evidence against defendant is that he was identified as the man coming out of the back gate of the ceramics shop. Defendant's theory was that he was not guilty; that he was not in Los Angeles on the 20th, although he admitted having been there on the 3d through the 8th or 9th of September when he left for Texas. From the resume of the evidence heretofore set forth, it appears that at the time the case was submitted to the jury reasonable inferences of either guilt or innocence could have been drawn therefrom. The jury could have disbelieved the identification testimony of Mr. Yonadi who said it was the defendant he saw coming out of the back gate; it could have disbelieved the testimony of Mrs. Simons who said that the defendant was the man she had seen in the areaway because she recognized "the lower part of his face" from a colored picture. Under the circumstances here presented, that part of defendant's instruction bearing upon two reasonable interpretations, or constructions, of the evidence should have been given. Defendant's offered instruction was refused because the trial court felt that it was not good law in that it "virtually says that when the evidence is equally balanced the defendant is entitled to a verdict of acquittal" and because it was in conflict with the reasonable doubt instruction. [16] In a criminal case the prosecution must prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, if the evidence is equally balanced, the defendant is entitled to an acquittal. Further, there is in the proposed instruction nothing inconsistent with the instruction on reasonable doubt. The offered [46 Cal.2d 563] instruction was a correct statement of the applicable law and should have been given.
 
=

SNIP

If you can draw two or more reasonable
conclusions from the circumstantial evidence, and one of those
reasonable conclusions points to innocence and another to guilt,
you must accept the one that points to innocence.

[bolded by Wudge]

SNIP

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/calcrim_juryins.pdf

Themis, hopefully, your posts will help to break the code for anyone still struggling with this instruction.

(tip of my hat)

(My Dad once said: "despite the best efforts of all parents, each generation has to find out for themselves that the stove is hot.")
 
Here's the entire discussion of the topic in the Merkouris case.

<Snip>

"You will notice that this rule applies only when both of the two possible opposing conclusions appear to you to be reasonable. If, on the other hand, one of the possible conclusions should appear to you to be reasonable and the other to be unreasonable, it would be your duty to adhere to the reasonable deduction and to reject the unreasonable, bearing in mind, however, that even if the reasonable deduction points to defendant's guilt, the entire proof must carry the convincing force required by law to support a verdict of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

BBM - This is what is more likely to happen in KC's case. If the defense had a reasonable explanation, Baez would have been pounding it during one of his numerous press conferences. :)
 
BBM - This is what is more likely to happen in KC's case. If the defense had a reasonable explanation, Baez would have been pounding it during one of his numerous press conferences. :)
If there was a reasonable explaination the defense wouldn't keep asking for later and later trial dates.
 
Hi. I'm a long time lurker with a question. I hope my
question doesn't sound stupid.
Since the defense isn't claiming this was an accident, will they even be able to offer alternate duct tape placement theories? The "kidnapper" would have no reason to use duct tape after she was dead.
 
Hi. I'm a long time lurker with a question. I hope my
question doesn't sound stupid.
Since the defense isn't claiming this was an accident, will they even be able to offer alternate duct tape placement theories? The "kidnapper" would have no reason to use duct tape after she was dead.

Prior to the start of a trial, defense counsel will often misdirect or otherwise hide their intended defense strategy (why should they give prosecutors a head-ups when they can fuddle).

Regarding assorted fruitcakes (such as kidnappers), no clear map exists on how they think or why they do what they do.
 
Prior to the start of a trial, defense counsel will often misdirect or otherwise hide their intended defense strategy (why should they give prosecutors a head-ups when they can fuddle).

Regarding assorted fruitcakes (such as kidnappers), no clear map exists on how they think or why they do what they do.

Can things the defense team has stated to the media be used in a trial to impeach?I'm assuming not,but JB talks a lot.
 
I did post a case example. I know you read that post, because you replied to it.

Nevertheless, by far, the most important thing is to understand the logic behind the instruction. And in post #554, I provided a hypo to illuminate "why"-- law schools use similar hypos. The answer is (as explained in the hypo) that logic precludes a situation where a juror finds the defense offered a REASONABLE explanation for an item piece of evidence, yet the juror still uses that evidence to find the defendant guilty based on our standard of proof beyond a REASONABLE doubt.

It's logically impossible to close that equation.

(Please understand, the absolute key is whether a juror finds the defense's explanation to be REASONABLE. This is true even if prosecutors offer an explanation that the juror evaluates to be more reasonable -- as brought out in the hypo.)

HTH

Honey, you offered an equation . I only remember half of it. But, I believe you said if the defense poses an explanation that is 35% reasonable, and the state poses an explanation that is (I forgot what %age, but it was larger) (65%?), the jury must give greater weight to the defense's explanation.
 
I have located the jury instruction from California. Reading the whole instruction gives a different picture IMHO. There is no numeric percentage or "calibration" described. It applies only to circumstantial evidence and the jurors are also cautioned to reject unreasonable conclusions. Remember, direct evidence is: you saw it raining outside, that is proof that it is raining. Circumstantial evidence is when you saw someone come in the building wearing a raincoat that is wet and has droplets of water on it, that is circumstantial evidence and the conclusion you may draw is that it is raining outside. The instruction only applies to circumstantial evidence.

Instruction will be in the next post.

ETA: I will post in pieces because it is long and I keep getting bumped offline attempting to do one post.

That's the best explanation of the two I've ever heard!

BTW-- Thank you ALL for being so figging brilliant, and making these debates SO much fun!

I am truly in lofty company :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::):):):):):):):):):)
 
Wudge,
Do you think they will change to an accident defense?

If either the defendant or the attorney was smarter, they'd JUMP for an accident defense.

People would be totally torqued at KC's shenanigans, but they might get a jury who would bite-- duct tape and all.
 
Personally I dont think we have seen enough duct tape evidence that could prove that it was used to suffocate, stem fluids, or anything else.

Until we see a full report, its impossible to reach an informed conclusion about how/when/why the tape was used.

We also have to remember that even if we believe KC to be 100% guilty, none of us will be on the jury pool.
They will not be hearing one side of the evidence as we have over the last year, they will be hearing from the defence forensics experts who will attempt to disprove the evidence the state presents.

Even 12 jurors may think she is guilty, but may not believe that there is enough evidence to find her guilty of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just because most people believe the totality of the evidence is enough to get a guilty verdict, doesnt mean that will be the jurys findings.

So many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted of crimes (not that I think KC fits in this group), and too many guilty perps get to walk...... so one thing we know is that justice does not always prevail.
JMO

If we get no more information about the duct tape than we have right now, I find the most reasonable explanation for duct tape over her mouth and nose to be suffocation. The idea of taping up a dead person's face like that seems very unlikely.
 
224. Circumstantial Evidence: Sufficiency of Evidence

Before you may rely on circumstantial evidence to conclude that a
fact necessary to find the defendant guilty has been proved, you
must be convinced that the People have proved each fact essential
to that conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt.​

Also, before you may rely on circumstantial evidence to find the
defendant guilty, you must be convinced that the only reasonable
conclusion supported by the circumstantial evidence is that the
defendant is guilty. If you can draw two or more reasonable
conclusions from the circumstantial evidence, and one of those
reasonable conclusions points to innocence and another to guilt,
you must accept the one that points to innocence. However, when
considering circumstantial evidence, you must accept only reasonable
conclusions and reject any that are unreasonable.​

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/calcrim_juryins.pdf

Yes, that sounds familiar! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

So, Themis, I'm confused. Under which category does kidnapping by an Invisnanny fall? Reasonable, or not reasonable? ;-

How about a telephone call from a dead baby?

A 30-day "script" of tales to mislead LE? ;-)
 
If there was a reasonable explaination the defense wouldn't keep asking for later and later trial dates.

The defense is asking for a later trial date so that Andrea Lyon has the opportunity to prepare for the case which is entirely reasonable, IMO. The later trial date has nothing to do with what the defense will be whatsoever. There may, in fact, be a reasonable explanation. We will have to wait and see at the trial.
 
The defense is asking for a later trial date so that Andrea Lyon has the opportunity to prepare for the case which is entirely reasonable, IMO. The later trial date has nothing to do with what the defense will be whatsoever. There may, in fact, be a reasonable explanation. We will have to wait and see at the trial.

Bu, Princess, if there was an explanation that exonerates KC, as JB has hinted, he could go to LE and spring her right this minute.
 
Bu, Princess, if there was an explanation that exonerated KC, as JB has hinted, he could go to LE and spring her right this minute.
Well, actually I think at this point it would need to be argued in court.
 
Prior to the start of a trial, defense counsel will often misdirect or otherwise hide their intended defense strategy (why should they give prosecutors a head-ups when they can fuddle).

Regarding assorted fruitcakes (such as kidnappers), no clear map exists on how they think or why they do what they do.

Even if a "reasonable" alternative explanation, such as SODDI types (ex-lovers, kidnappers or angry drug kingpins, etc.) is presented to the jury (and AL, who will presumably be spearheading defense strategy for this case, is on record as being against such strategies) - they will not continue to appear "reasonable" to a jury in juxtaposition with the other evidence that KC and her family have contributed with their behavior after the incident.

Since most trained psychological experts here agree that KC does not qualify for an insanity defense (even though they may disagree as to what specific psychological disorder/s she may exhibit) - I will not attempt to argue with them and therefore think that it will also be hard to support an accidental death scenario as well.

If Caylee were kidnapped by a friend, it is evident that KC and the entire Anthony family would have had this person accused and arrested. They all tried to unsuccessfully pin it on an Imaginanny, and then very quickly moved to attempt to frame others. If KC had been "protecting" the family by not reporting her daughter kidnapped and being afraid to involve LE, which might indicate she consorted with criminals (which is what she implied to them behind bars) then that little ploy seems a bit farfetched since the only worries she apparently had behind bars was that she missed a family barbeque and was "frushtrated" at being unable to look for her daughter herself anymore (at places like malls and bars) and did not understand what she was "supposed to be learning" by her incarceration. The only time KC seemed concerned for her or her family's safety was when protestors outside the house got ugly and she called 911. No mention of protective custody or witness program was ever mentioned in any interview leading me to believe she was not very worried about offending anyone nefarious by accusing them of kidnapping and then murdering her baby . Also, her "fear" of the safety of her family contradicts the fact that she hinted that Jesse or Amy or another of her friends might be involved.

If the death had been accidental, then any decent, caring human being, much less a mother of the child in question, would have called in medical professionals to try to revive the child (or at least officially pronounce her dead). Instead, KC was much more concerned about getting to Blockbuster to spend the night watching movies with her boyfriend, and it appears that her dead baby was stashed in the trunk for at least a couple of days before being disposed of. For the next month, KC's entire behavior toward her family and others about Caylee was completely evasive, filled with elaborate lies, and her demeanor was as if she was finally having the time of her life. She was so happy to be free from responsibility she even went on another of many documented little crime sprees, spending unlawfully gained money. Her social life, documented by texts, social networking and the time she spent partying, indicates she was not all that concerned about a "missing" child.

Since KC spent the entire time after Caylee's "disappearance" and demise acting nonchalant, unconcerned and positively playful, I think it will be hard for the jury to swallow any other "reasonable" explanation offered by the defense because her own behavior contradicts it, as does that of her family, who behaved after she was arrested as if they were much more concerned with deflecting the blame for Caylee's disappearance and death on others than on even finding her, which indicates to me they knew very early on she was not alive and that only their daughter knew what happened. So even if a SODDI defense was attempted and a jury bought it, they would have to assume by KC's own behavior before, during and after the incident she was, at the very least an accessory to the crime either during or after the fact.

I just think a Florida jury will find it hard to see what, in other circumstances might be deemed "reasonable doubt", as having merit here, based on KC's behavior for the month before she was busted and her behavior ever since. The fact that there is very little reasonable about her own behavior or her family's, other than it points to protecting their daughter from criminal charges, I think would also influence a jury to nullify any other explanation as "reasonable" doubt. JMHO.
 
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3951508#post3951508"]Jury Instructions - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Soooo guilty or not guilty? where do you stand?
 
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