GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

[puzzleme]

That's a very good idea! Have you ever contacted the FBI before? I haven't but it couldn't be too difficult would it?

 

[dogperson]

I have never contacted the FBI. Her NAMUS profile lists the special agent as Jalaine Ward, phone (478)745-1271. The FBI case number is 301-AT-105596. If there was an email I would feel more comfortable contacting her that way (I am assuming this is a woman's name but not really sure). There is also an address of FBI, 201 2nd St, Macon, GA 31201.

 

[Backwoods]

You would expect a guy like Debardeleben to be up to something during those years, unless we find out he was in jail then.

Did you receive the copy of Lethal Shadow that you ordered yet?

I had mine out again last night (though mine's the Beyond Cruel title -- just a retitled reissue. I'm pretty sure). I admit that I have not been reading the book straight through -- pretty nearly, but, given my interest in Carlene's case is really what prompted me to get the book, I've naturally been "hunting" a little for possibly relevant info.

The way the book's written -- well, it jumps around a lot, timeline-wise, following the Secret Service investigation and kind of flash-backing at times to MD's crimes.

One thing MD did is bank-extortion things -- sometimes with a partner (I think usually one of his wives) -- where he would target some big bank guy, break in the bank guy's house while he was at work and nab & bind the guy's wife, and call up the bank guy at the bank with his demands. (He did not kill any of the wives, as far as I know.) One of these, in which he worked alone, happened in May 1973. (That timeline pdf I posted the link to is good, but this just goes to show -- it's not the last word, because this incident, as far as I can see, is not on there.)

So we know now he was not totally "quiet" during this period.

 

[Backwoods]

I was on both the Secret Service and the FBI web sites last night reading about, among other things, how to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with those agencies.

As far as Debardeleben goes, I think the Secret Service pretty much handled all aspects of his crimes in their investigation, which is one thing that made it an unusual one for them. They were after him for counterfeiting and then they found ... all this other stuff. They were in an unusual position, too, because instead of having a known crime and looking for evidence and a suspect, they had evidence and a suspect but had to think how to "hunt down" the crimes!

Early on, the SS apparently contacted the FBI about some of what they'd found and the FBI seemed to kind of say -- OK, now get back to us when you figure out what's going on with all that.

As I understand it (from peeking ahead in the book, partly!), they were able to track down some of the crimes by putting out info about what they'd found/timelines/etc., as I've mentioned before. I think he was eventually convicted of some abductions and rapes, but I THINK he was not ever tried for the murders they linked him to -- and I know there are at least two in which it seems he's pretty much the guy, for sure. He already had so many prison years stacked up because of his other convictions that the jurisdictions apparently decided the trouble and expense, etc., would not be necessary -- much to the chagrin of the SS and to the families of the victims.

Anyhow, the SS eventually "closed" the Debardeleben case, and I believe he died in prison in 2011. I was wondering, because of those two things, if we might not be able to do a FOIA request regarding the SS documentation (if there was any) of his whereabouts in, say, May-July 1972?

Another thing, too: In one case (I forget the particulars), one of the links they found was a license plate that had been stolen (and apparently reported as such) in the state where the crime was committed, around the time of the crime -- it was among the ones Debardeleben had stored away. (D. had a whole huge stash of license plates from many states.) It seems he would often steal a plate in the vicinity of where he was and place it on his vehicle when committing crimes. If we could find out whether he had a Georgia plate reported stolen before or just at the time of Carlene's disappearance ...! That would be something!

 

[Backwoods]

Sorry for all this back-to-back, rapid-fire Backwoods posting -- but I had several areas I wanted to touch on and I felt it would be best to somewhat divide them up into categories.

These are just a few little things that have kept nagging my mind the last few days -- may not be at all important, but:

The Krispy Kreme reference -- First of all, it's been a while since I read all the media, etc., linked in this thread -- I need to go re-read everything, because I may be wondering/asking about things that are out there and I've read but have forgotten.

But anyhow -- I seem to remember there are references to the car being found, finally, parked "right across from the Krispy Kreme". To me, as a "semi-local", this means something that I've realized wouldn't jump out at a non-area person.

The way Westgate Mall was set up, its long front (east, I think) side faced Pio Nono Avenue. On the OTHER side of Pio Nono was (and I'm pretty sure, still is) the Krispy Kreme -- which has been there, like, forever! (In other words, unless I am very badly mistaken, there WAS no Krispy Kreme "at" Westgate -- there was one directly across Pio Nono Avenue.)

IIRC, it was a pretty far little bit -- parking lot distance -- from the actual mall structure to Pio Nono. So to say the car was parked "right across from the Krispy Kreme" -- SOUNDS as if it must have been pretty near the edge of the Westgate parking lot -- not really close up to the Westgate stores and entrances. This makes me wonder whether there was any usual or expected spot where Carlene herself normally would have parked -- and, if so, whether that was anywhere near where the car was found.

BTW: Do we know WHY Carlene was going to Westgate -- a specific errand or anything? (I WILL reread the sources, I promise!!)

Also -- I know there's mention of Carlene watching some guys she knew play pinball at Westgate, and I have been racking my brain trying to remember where at Westgate, in 1972, that would have been.

Opposite the Pio Nono side of Westgate (so the west side, I think), there was an entrance that had a few "separate" storefronts, ones that were not inside the "big" part of the mall. The tenants changed over time -- I think I remember there being a drycleaner's there, at one time, and my brother said maybe a barbershop -- and I think he's right, because I think I suddenly now remember the striped barber pole thing outside!! I'm thinking MAYBE, in the latter years of Westgate, there MAY have been a game arcade out in this little section -- I just can't recall for sure, though. Anyhow, if there was one there, I was thinking how that little area was kind of "off to itself" and sort of hidden a bit from other parts of the complex. (I remember that sometimes when the wind was blowing, there would be a little whirlwind mini-tornado of leaves there between the two sections of the building. Weird, the memories thinking about all this is stirring up!)

Recruiting Macon folks: I very closely follow the WS thread about the 2011 murder of Lauren Giddings in Macon and I know that there are Macon posters/readers there. Think I'll drop a little invite to come to Carlene's thread -- it's a slow point in Lauren's case, so maybe a little off-topic appeal will be OK.

ETA: I did post the invitation in Lauren's thread:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 27 June 2011 - 14

 

[momrids6]

Recruiting Macon folks: I very closely follow the WS thread about the 2011 murder of Lauren Giddings in Macon and I know that there are Macon posters/readers there. Think I'll drop a little invite to come to Carlene's thread -- it's a slow point in Lauren's case, so maybe a little off-topic appeal will be OK.

RSBM: I know 2 things about Macon;

1.the strip of gas stations / fast food on the left off the highway coming in that my bladder praises the lord for when they come into view

and

2. Macon is the beginning of the nightmarish traffic gridlock that lasts all the way to the GA dome

If any of this gets farther South... I may be more helpful...

 

[Backwoods]

Exactly! I have wondered the same thing! I'm sorry to say according to the letter she wrote in 1999 LE didn't even know if she had been found or was dead. So if they didn't know that it sounds like DNA hasn't even been tested against any UID. I have been looking to at UIDs with no luck but I have been looking at area maps of Macon trying to see if there might be a chance to find where her remains might be found. I am disabled with lupus so traveling is out for me. If only I knew someone who lived near Macon I could consult with about maybe looking around or looking for wells. I know realistically I can't find her! But that letter the Mother wrote to the paper it broke my heart! I'm a mother of three grown children 27, 24, and 21. I can't image her pain. I'm determined to try to find Carlene for her.
Any ideas? I'm new to all this and I would like any ideas you might have. Which UID have you tried to match with her with?

bbm: puzzleme, if Carlene is deceased, maybe you CAN find her! There are some incredible folks posting in the Unidentified threads here on WS who help families find their missing loved ones that way -- probably often without ever leaving their computers! It is so good of you to want to help this family. Often have thought of delving into the UID threads myself, but so far I really haven't much. Just in my opinion, the work that goes on there is some of the most valuable on WS.

Thinking about the Knowles connection -- if he was involved, I'd think it probably was because he was staying in Macon at the time (purely theoretical, at this point) and so wouldn't have taken Carlene too far away, BUT -- I was doing some research on him the other day and found it mentioned that he may have had relatives in Alabama. IF he had anything to do with Carlene going missing, wonder if maybe he headed that way...? Alabama UIDs might not be a bad search area -- it would be a little ways, but there are a good many hours between the time she was last seen and when the car showed back up.

 

[Backwoods]

Just a thought spurred by the post I just addressed to puzzleme:

I wonder if, by any chance, there were recent maintenance records on the station wagon (or another recent source of mileage info --even just family knowledge) that could have been used to compare to the mileage on the car when it was found at Westgate? Just might have indicated whether it was driven unusually far (or not) that day...?

Might have been a good idea at the time (hope they did it!) -- probably a pretty useless one now, sadly...

 

[dogperson]

Backwoods, have you checked your messages?

Also I have some maps and photos of what Westgate looked like back then. As soon as I locate them I will post them here. At first I also thought the Krispy Kreme was in the mall itself but as you all have noticed, it was not. It was still out in plain view but not in the mall parking lot. I still think the abductor took her in her own car, did whatever he did, then brought the car back and parked it. He had about 8 hours so Carlene could be in the general area or not, depending what he spent those 8 hours doing.

 

[puzzleme]

Ya'll are the greatest! I would like to thank each one of you who has replied to my post and everyone who has replied to the other posts! I really thank you for being interested in bringing Carlene home! I will be posting more as soon as I can get my head around everything that has been posted here! I had no idea that so many would be this interested! Thanks again!

 

[puzzleme]

Backwoods, have you checked your messages?

Also I have some maps and photos of what Westgate looked like back then. As soon as I locate them I will post them here. At first I also thought the Krispy Kreme was in the mall itself but as you all have noticed, it was not. It was still out in plain view but not in the mall parking lot. I still think the abductor took her in her own car, did whatever he did, then brought the car back and parked it. He had about 8 hours so Carlene could be in the general area or not, depending what he spent those 8 hours doing.

I would love to see the maps dogperson!

 

[Backwoods]

Backwoods, have you checked your messages?

Also I have some maps and photos of what Westgate looked like back then. As soon as I locate them I will post them here. At first I also thought the Krispy Kreme was in the mall itself but as you all have noticed, it was not. It was still out in plain view but not in the mall parking lot. I still think the abductor took her in her own car, did whatever he did, then brought the car back and parked it. He had about 8 hours so Carlene could be in the general area or not, depending what he spent those 8 hours doing.

So -- just to be sure I am understanding the location of the car sort of the same way you are: I am thinking it was in the east side of the Westgate parking lot, probably close enough to the edge of the parking lot and thus to the street (Pio Nono Avenue) to be seen from the Krispy Kreme, which was just across Pio Nono.

Or, are you saying you don't think the car was in Westgate's parking lot??

 

[Backwoods]

I was searching online and found a couple of links about has some info about Westgate Mall in Macon, Georgia. The first two links had photos of the mall from the 1960's and 1970's.


http://skycity2.blogspot.com/2009/07/westgate-shopping-center-macon-ga_17.html


http://skycity2.blogspot.com/2010/09/westgate-mall-brochure-photos-macon-ga.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westgate_Mall_(Macon,_Georgia)


I also read the link from the newspaper article Miracle of a Loss that was posted at the beginning of this thread.

What caught my attention was that the newspaper article mentioned Carlene did sketches of horses and that the day Carlene Tengelsen disappeared on June 21, 1972, was the first day of Summer.

Carlene's disappearance may be connected to other females that disappeared on the first day or at the start of Summer during the 1970's. All had connection to horses.

Jan Andre Cotta missing: June 26, 1973 from Wall Township, New Jersey.

Margaret Ellen Fox missing: June 24, 1974 from Burlington, New Jersey.

Edna Christine Thorne missing: June 24, 1975 from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Sandra Kaye Butler missing: June 26, 1978 from Sparks, Nevada.

puzzleme, I don't know what all photos and maps dogperson has, but in the meantime:

I don't know whether you saw this earlier post, above, (thanks, nerosleuth!) that has links that has some photos and/or maps (in the first two links), so bringing it forward. It was fascinating to me when I first read that post and visited those links to see all the historical info about Westgate -- it really "took me back".

Also, last night I found an additional link from that skycity2 blog, one that wasn't linked before. Here it is:

http://skycity2.blogspot.com/2010/05/westgate-shopping-center-today-macon-ga.html

At that link, this is a link to an enlarged version of a photo/diagram that appears on that page:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UJQzmnjudgM/TNQEKx-ir7I/AAAAAAAAEqk/Po5i7g4Pc6o/s1600/westgate_1993.jpg

It's an aerial view of what was still at the Westgate site in 1993, but sort of indicates some of the locations of the structures/stores from Westgate's mall days.

 

[dogperson]

I think the Krispy Kreme wasn't in the actual mall itself, from what I recall from the maps, and that it would not have been the logical place for a person to park while visiting the mall. My understanding of it is that the car was found parked by the curb along the street. As soon as I get time I will go thru all the stuff I've saved and try and find the particular maps I want, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. That's why I think the abductor ditched the car there, though why it was in such a public location I have no idea unless: 1) He had to get back to that area because he lived there or was parked there himself, or 2) He got a thrill out of taking the chance of getting caught with the car. If it was the second reason, that's why I lean toward this being a grown man, not a teen boy Carlene's age. It's hard for me to imagine a young guy being that foolhardly as it would likely have been his first (maybe only ever) abduction and you would expect him to be afraid of getting caught. If number 1 is right, then I'm thinking a local person, or at least someone who was currently staying in the area nearby. If his ride was parked there somewhere then he had to get back to it. The actual mall parking lot would have maybe been a bit riskier because he had to know people would be out looking for a girl Carlene's age, and since the mall was the last place she was seen he would have to expect people to be checking the parking lot.
This is just my opinion, but I think Carlene's remains could be anywhere within a 3 hour's drive from the mall, because she didn't show up to pick up her sister at around 4:30 and the car didn't show up until 1:30 am. That's 8 hours. She must have been abducted prior to 4:30 but how long prior I don't know, maybe within an hour? What was he doing with the car for 8 hours?
I would love to know if anything seemed weird about the mileage, or about how much gas was left in the tank. Surely he didn't fill it up but if he drove far enough from the area he might have. I wonder if it's possible for us to get a copy of the original police report. I suspect it won't have many details on it since the police were reluctant to believe Carlene wasn't just a runaway, but you never know.
So did he assault her pretty quickly after abducting her and then drive her a long way from Macon? That seems the less risky way, but maybe he took her alive way out of town somewhere. Or was part of the time spent disposing of remains? Or was he joyriding? Or did he have a private residence or property nearby where he spent those hours? I wonder what area of town Knowles' girlfriend lived in.

 

[Backwoods]

dogperson, you are correct that the Krispy Kreme wasn't at Westgate -- it was just across Pio Nono Avenue. What I'm asking is, do we know for sure (I gather so, from the way I'm reading the articles) that the car turned up IN the Westgate parking lot...because, if that's a given, and it was described as being "right across from the Krispy Kreme", that indicates to me that it (the car) likely was toward the edge of the front Westgate parking lot. Otherwise, it probably would have been described as being "right in front of_______", fill in the blank with some particular Westgate store or entrance. Westgate sat up kind of on a hill overlooking Pio Nono -- it just would seem weird, IMO, to say the car was right across from the Krispy Kreme (which was/is on the other side of Pio Nono) unless it was pretty near the edge of the Westgate parking lot, with the Krispy Kreme in view across the street.

Hope I am making sense...

ETA: I am pretty sure there was no (legal) curbside parking on Pio Nono -- no facilities for such and was (and is) a busy main road. So if indeed it was along the curb on a street, it was either dumped on Pio Nono hastily and recklessly (possible!) or may have been on a side street across Pio Nono, near the Krispy Kreme.

Again ETA: Sorry to be hammering on this thing about the car -- but I think it could be really important, where exactly it turned up, and I don't have a clear understanding of that.

 

[puzzleme]

I thought Knowles was in jail in 1972 and he didn't meet up with the girlfriend until 1974. I think I read that on trutv. That's what I thought I read. But hey I could be wrong

 

[puzzleme]

Thanks backwoods for the links and map!

 

[Backwoods]

I thought Knowles was in jail in 1972 and he didn't meet up with the girlfriend until 1974. I think I read that on trutv. That's what I thought I read. But hey I could be wrong

He was paroled in early 1974 -- that's when he went out to meet the California by-mail girlfriend; that went sour and that's when, apparently, he started his known spree of killings.

But -- it is not clear to me, from anything reliable I've been able to find, that he was incarcerated in June 1972. He was in and out of jail/prison a lot, it seems. He MAY have been in, in June 1972, but I just haven't been able to prove or disprove that. He DID have a girlfriend (some sources say he married her at some point, but I don't know) in Macon, though, during the early 1970s, that I do know.

 

[Backwoods]

dogperson, I have been wondering myself about what area of Macon Knowles' girlfriend lived in -- think maybe I can find out. I'll try.

 

[Backwoods]

dogperson, you mentioned earlier the idea of sleuthing yearbooks from Carlene's high school. I'm sure you have already noticed that on some of those Sky City blog links there are some photos of students at Westgate, taken from Southwest High School yearbooks. Pretty good indicator that Westgate might have been a popular hangout for some students of the area at that time.

Last night I found this pay-site for yearbooks/annuals. Looks like you get a year's subscription for $19.95 or monthly at $4.95, with a 2-month minimum. Not pushing it at all, just linking it here as a possible resource for anyone interested:

http://www.e-yearbook.com/