Gas Cans discovered by George Key date - June 24, 2008 ***REVISITED ***

[Spangle]

Those statements are plausible since the odor was 'contained/sealed' in the trunk area.
The interior of the car would stink because of the way the trunk and rear seats are vented, this wouldn't be noticeable until the doors were opened (or the trunk).

IF the Amscot car park is shaded by trees, that would also 'mute' the odor somewhat.

The towyard was more likely to be unshaded, and the heat index was likely MUCH higher there.

(My other half and I often squabble about parking beneath trees - it can make a HUGE difference in the Fl heat)

Also, we get some nice wind/breeze that if your up wind, they wouldn't have smelled anything either.

When GA was at the tow yard, might not been as windy/breezy that day. And as you said, it would have had direct heat, for sure.

To me, it's possible to not smell it on the out side, based upon heat, wind, time of day, sealed car, etc. And the smell still be there, it's just that the person didn't smell it at that time.

 

[Spangle]

I have a hatch back car. Part of cooling it off quick in the florida sun is to open the hatch and let the heat out. You can feel the heat coming out of the trunk. It goes the way the wind goes and helps suck it out. It doesn't just hang out at the car, it floats away the wind is blowing.

I would think stink would do the same thing.

After KC had the smell in her nose, she is going to smell it strong, no matter which way the wind is blowing. Just remembering, she will smell it strong.

 

[snow_walker]

I was working on what I thought was a brilliant theory, but so far it just hasn't panned out. Thought I would mention it though, in case it leads somewhere for someone else.

My thought was that KC had hidden the body for a time in an unused (or little used) fridge or deepfreeze. Possibly at LA's home, as he was out of town for awhile. Then she had to pick it up again, move it, kept it in the wheelwell of the car for a time.. perhaps it was still in the wheel well when George and tow yard guy looked in the trunk? And perhaps GA found it there and left it in the woods on his way home.. or perhaps KC had already moved it to the woods herself before she abandoned the car at Amscott.

In any event, if the body was kept for a time in a fridge (not frozen but cool) or frozen in a deep freeze, it could well throw off dates and times and when the odour was or wasn't present.

I thought there might have been an old fridge or freezer, seldom used, in the garage, but I don't see one in the pics.. so went back to thinking about LA being away, maybe she used his..or maybe some friend who was away from home at that time. Mainly I want to throw the idea of 'the body may have been in a fridge or freezer part of the time' and 'the body may have been concealed in the wheelwell when GA found the car' out there see if anyone else can make anything out of those ideas.

 

[Spangle]

This is driving me nuts. I'll have to take the dates down and check the weather data for those days in question. Just to see how strong the wind was on those days.

Not only would we have the up/down wind factor. But a real strong wind would make a bigger difference the a slight wind.

 

[LancelotLink]

Just a thought on the odor. I think the temperature and humidity would factor in, along with the car being used, as to the odor at any given time. When G & C picked up the car at the tow yard, it had been sitting, closed and unused for a period, no release for the odor. JMO. :waitasec:

I was also wondering about the AC or any air filtering system. Does Casey's car have anything that would, while running, keep air circulating or cooling in the trunk area?

 

[songline]

GREAT THREAD.
Very interesting concepts. I read many of your posts :clap:
It is transparent that G&C are lying for Casey.
For me it has been also transparent that they knew about Caylee's demise
long before that 911 call. I think it is perhaps since 6/24?

I always felt the Gas Cans were suspect, or some BS story to deflect attention.
another issue I have with the cans is:
that NO finger prints were found on them
not even GA's.

I do not believe that GA saw Casey on June 24th.
:waitasec: but I'm still pondering about the gas cans.

 

[cecybeans]

snipped

I thought there might have been an old fridge or freezer, seldom used, in the garage, but I don't see one in the pics.. so went back to thinking about LA being away, maybe she used his..or maybe some friend who was away from home at that time. Mainly I want to throw the idea of 'the body may have been in a fridge or freezer part of the time' and 'the body may have been concealed in the wheelwell when GA found the car' out there see if anyone else can make anything out of those ideas.

The only possibility I could even think of was AH's storage space. It seemed from their conversations that either KC may have had a key or access. When AH was in PR and KC was driving her car, I'd imagine she had her whole keyring - maybe with a key to the unit. I've often wondered if LE took a look at her storage space to check around - particularly since she was one of the ones KC was busy trying to throw under the bus later. She and JG have always struck me as Most Likely To Be Framed.

 

[NSS]

Awesome Sleuthing ...!! :clap:

I may be wrong but I've been under the assumption that Cindy had called Casey several times around the time of the ""Alleged"" Gas Can Encounter.

I thought there were 4 successive calls 1 minute in length & 1 minute apart

This would suggest that Cindy was calling Casey & she wasn't answering

Do you see these calls on Casey's cell records..?
( I could be mistaken...Which happens quite a bit these days)

I thought that if an "incident" did take place that afternoon, George may have called Cindy & told he.......

A) "Casey had the Gas Cans"

or

B) "There's a horrible Smell in the Car"

And the 4 successive calls were Cindy frantically calling Casey

Is there anyway you could either confirm or deny the existence of these calls?

I'm not very good at sorting through those Cell Records

I couldn't find the details for all cell records - I'll look more later. I used only 'ping' records for the above.

However, in the reference area here I found this from Momtective. Casey was trying to get hold of Cindy, no doubt GA had asked her a question she didn't like.

IIRC - KC was supposed to be in Tampa with ZG, so she probably had to call CA in order to *explain* being at home. The calls that evening were to exchange the story about KC coming home to get ZGs insurance papers (where'd she find THEM?).

Also interesting is that CA tells GVS that KC already knew about the gas cans as she had told her in a call that morning (around 1.02) - except there wasn't any call between them that morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/caylee/index.html

June 24th
Casey still at the hospital with Zani (according to the FBI interview)
14:49:06 Casey calls Cindy’s cell no answer
14:49:31 Casey calls Cindy’s cell 4 sec
14:49:47 Casey calls Cindy’s cell no answer
14:50:11 Casey calls Cindy’s cell 1 min call
15:15:18 Cindy calls Casey 4 minute conversation
17:25:53 Casey calls Cindy’s cell 10 minute conversation
19:05:06 Anthony home calls Casey 4 sec
19:06:10 Casey calls Anthony home 12 minute conversation

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2988005&postcount=1

ETA - found the cell records page.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2385297/Casey_Anthony_cell_records_615_to_716


Re reading the documents and comparing them against statements at the time is a real eye opener.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I couldn't find the details for all cell records - I'll look more later. I used only 'ping' records for the above.

Also interesting is that CA tells GVS that KC already knew about the gas cans as she had told her in a call that morning (around 1.02) - except there wasn't any call between them that morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/caylee/index.html

ETA - found the cell records page.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2385297/Casey_Anthony_cell_records_615_to_716

Re reading the documents and comparing them against statements at the time is a real eye opener.

Very respectfully snipped. Thank you NSS for the link to Greta's interview w/ C & G. Watching it again, Cindy is almost holding her breath when George gets to the gas can story, it's as if she is so afraid he is going to say something else. You can see the relief in her face when the story ends, in fact she ends it by saying "the gas cans were in Casey's car". Cindy's not the type to give away any wrong that Casey has done, so this confession w/ Greta is very suspicious. IMO, she is giving away a small wrong on Casey's part in order to cover for a much larger wrong, if that makes sense.

I'd be willing to bet money that something else occurred, other than just finding the gas cans... if only we could figure out what. I wonder if the state has those blanks filled in ?

 

[Searchfortruth]

BJB explains the chase and the probable date being June 29th on this page...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73424

 

[cloud9]

The only possibility I could even think of was AH's storage space. It seemed from their conversations that either KC may have had a key or access. When AH was in PR and KC was driving her car, I'd imagine she had her whole keyring - maybe with a key to the unit. I've often wondered if LE took a look at her storage space to check around - particularly since she was one of the ones KC was busy trying to throw under the bus later. She and JG have always struck me as Most Likely To Be Framed.

Also, I don't know if this has been resolved yet or not, but I remember a phone conversation between LA and AH where she asked about a key and he said something like he "destroyed it." Why "destroy" it? And was it the key to her shed?

 

[AZlawyer]

I couldn't find the details for all cell records - I'll look more later. I used only 'ping' records for the above.

However, in the reference area here I found this from Momtective. Casey was trying to get hold of Cindy, no doubt GA had asked her a question she didn't like.

IIRC - KC was supposed to be in Tampa with ZG, so she probably had to call CA in order to *explain* being at home. The calls that evening were to exchange the story about KC coming home to get ZGs insurance papers (where'd she find THEM?).

Also interesting is that CA tells GVS that KC already knew about the gas cans as she had told her in a call that morning (around 1.02) - except there wasn't any call between them that morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/caylee/index.html





ETA - found the cell records page.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2385297/Casey_Anthony_cell_records_615_to_716


Re reading the documents and comparing them against statements at the time is a real eye opener.

Family phone calls 6/24/08 (calls of significant length are noted):

9:49 am house (George) calls Gentiva (Cindy)

10:19 am house (George) calls police
10:21 am house (George) calls Cindy's cell
10:22 am house (George) calls Cindy's cell
10:22 am Cindy's cell calls house (George)

11:19 am Casey's cell calls Gentiva (Cindy) (7 minutes)

-GAS CAN INCIDENT-

2:48 pm Casey's cell calls Gentiva (Cindy)
2:49 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's cell
2:49 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's cell (3 minutes)
2:57 pm Cindy checks her cell phone voicemail
3:00 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell
3:00 pm Casey gets a "voicemail waiting" message
3:01 pm Cindy checks her cell phone voicemail
3:15 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell (6 minutes)
3:20 pm Casey checks her cell phone voicemail

5:23 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell
5:24 pm Casey gets a "voicemail waiting" message
5:25 pm Casey checks her cell phone voicemail
5:25 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's cell (11 minutes)

7:05 pm house calls Casey's cell
7:06 pm Casey's cell calls house (13 minutes)

A note for cell phone record fanatics only:
I am counting "Lexus" calls as Gentiva (Cindy) calls. Short version of my reasoning: There are 2 "original" documents apparently from AT&T--one has the Gentiva number for these calls and one has the Lexus number. Since the Lexus sleuthing (IMO) has run into a dead end and the Gentiva option fits so much better with the evidence, I am speculating for now that the "original" AT&T document showing the Gentiva number is accurate and the other document is inaccurate. I know we all thought we had worked out a long time ago that the "original" AT&T records had the Lexus number, but now we seem to have a conflict even in what seemed to be the "raw data."

 

[aafromaa]

snipped

Wasn't Casey's text, about the bad smell in the car, sent to Amy on June 25th ? If so, that's only a day after the gas can incident w/ George. I am thinking he might have smelled the decomp, but didn't mention it then as Casey got in her car and took off quickly.

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right & the 1st text to AH about the smell was on the 25th - the day after the gas can incident. Then on the 26th KC texted AH that the smell was worse and on the 27th that she had gotten rid of it.

I've had a lot of trouble trying to understand the 2.6 days of decomp thing but I am beginning to think that Caylee was in that trunk on the 24th. We know there was some reason that KC didn't want GA in the trunk. (It wasn't so he wouldn't see the gas cans because she got them and gave them to him.) If he really did see "clothes" in the trunk, I think it is possible that Caylee's body was under them.

I do not think that GA smelled anything that day even if the trunk was open and he was near it because I don't think the decomp had started by that time. I know that sounds far-fetched and I don't have all the answers.

But if the 2.6 days is accurate (or at least in the ballpark - because I have read posts from other WSers that the temperature used to calculate that was off a bit and it could have been slightly longer) but if it was in the ballpark and if KC's text to AH saying she got rid of the smell on the 27th actually meant that she got rid of Caylee's body on morning of the 27th, then backing up 2.6 days (or in that range) would mean the decomp smell started on the 25th, the day that KC 1st texted AH about the smell and the smell would have been worse on the 26th which KC also texted AH that it was.

Now, of course, the problem with my theory, is where was Caylee before the 24th? I don't know. I believe that she died on the 16th (though I'm not sure whether it was early morning, mid-afternoon, or late night). Regardless, that's a long time for there to be no decomp. UNLESS there was something done to slow down or prevent that decomp. Morgues use refrigeration slightly above freezing to drastically reduce the decomp rate and temperatures considerably below freezing to totally halt decomp.

I have no evidence to offer that KC refrigerated or froze Caylee's body after death (in a refrigerator, freezer, or cooler) but if she did - let's say on the afternoon of the 16th and it was shortly after Caylee's death, and then didn't remove her until the 24th just before seeing GA at the A's house, then there would have been no odor of decomp for him to smell and her body could have been hidden beneath the clothes in the trunk and that could be why KC didn't want him to go into her trunk.

Another WSer (in some thread somewhere - I'm sorry but I don't recall who, when, or where or I would give credit) suggested that Caylee's body was placed in a cooler and it was that cooler set on the ground in a couple of different places in the A's backyard that caused the cadavar dogs to hit on them. I think that is a possibility and probably took place on one or both of the days (the 17th & 18th IIRC) that BB saw KC's car backed into the driveway (one of which she borowed a shovel). I think she was trying to find a way to dispose of the body (& this is likely when she put her in the laundry bag as well) but decided against it and kept her wherever she had her for those first couple of days until the 23rd or 24th.

Why the 23rd? That's just a possibility I'm throwing in there because I think it was strange for KC not to allow TL to put the gas in the car for her the day he picked her up on Chickasaw Trail and I think that was the 23rd - the day his friend was in a car wreck. There was some reason that she didn't want him too close to that car that day too. Again, I don't think it was odor but rather something she thought he might see and ask her about - like "what's in the cooler" or something. If that's the case, was there a cooler in the trunk on the 24th when GA supposedly saw in the trunk? Had the ice melted by the 25th and the odor started? Was it ice in a cooler or was she in someone's fridge or freezer all that time? I don't know, I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

But the only way that I can reconcile no one smelling the car and her not mentioning it prior to the 25th is that it didn't start smelling until late on the 24th or sometime on the 25th. And if it wasn't the body that KC got rid of on the 27th, what was it? Obviously, it wasn't the odor because that continued to get worse at the tow yard. (Though I still think she expected it to disipate over the weekend and that's why she & AH went to Target to get gas cans on Mon. But I'm not sure if she got to the car before it was towed and decided the smell was too bad and left or if it had already been towed by the time she got there.) And the only way I can reconcile my understanding of the 2.6 days of decomp in the trunk is that if the decomp was significantly reduced or halted for a time.

My goodness, that got a bit lenghty, didn't it. I guess that's what happens when you think "out loud" - hope no one minds the length. :crazy:

 

[aafromaa]

snipped

The chase happened on June 29th, per E-Pass records. Maybe George had been thinking of the smell, Caylee, saw Casey driving a vehicle and wanted to find out what was going on...chasing your daughter down the highway at over 80 MPH are the actions of a desperate man,

Can you give any additional information regarding the E-Pass records and the chase? Is it possible that these E-Pass records could reflect something else?

There are 2 reasons that I can't see this taking place on the 29th.

1) KC told CA that she was with JMH in Jacksonville so I can't see CA lending her the car for the afternoon - according to GA the day of the chase, CA had lent KC her car and KC had left hers in the driveway and came back that evening to switch them back.

2) TL says that KC hung out with him all weekend before his trip (left on 30th) so when would she have had time to borrow CA's car on the 29th?

I'm not saying that I believe the new story from the A's that this chase happened long before June 16th, but I'm just not sure about it being the 29th either.

Added in Edit:

Just read the BJB theory of the chase that was noted above. ([ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73424"]Ping Map for June 29, 2008 - Discuss this day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]) That BJB is something! Still not sure about KC being apart from TL that morning but he does say there are times he lends her his vehicle to run errands before he leaves for NY so BJB's theory sounds pretty good. (Even though I can't believe KC would have the gall to try to get those gas cans again after the 24th - then again, it is KC so I guess I can believe it.)

 

[aafromaa]

You may have a point, the garage door was closed with his car inside. He had just come home at 2:00 and had to leave soon, his job started at 3:00. I don't think I would be closing the garage door if I was going to be in and out like that...maybe he was waiting for Casey.

actually, GA wasn't working 3-11 that day - he had interview with Andrews International that evening (6pm-ish) and was going to hang around the house before getting ready to go to the interview

 

[Searchfortruth]

snipped



Can you give any additional information regarding the E-Pass records and the chase? Is it possible that these E-Pass records could reflect something else?

There are 2 reasons that I can't see this taking place on the 29th.

1) KC told CA that she was with JMH in Jacksonville so I can't see CA lending her the car for the afternoon - according to GA the day of the chase, CA had lent KC her car and KC had left hers in the driveway and came back that evening to switch them back.

2) TL says that KC hung out with him all weekend before his trip (left on 30th) so when would she have had time to borrow CA's car on the 29th?

I'm not saying that I believe the new story from the A's that this chase happened long before June 16th, but I'm just not sure about it being the 29th either.

Added in Edit:

Just read the BJB theory of the chase that was noted above. (Ping Map for June 29, 2008 - Discuss this day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community) That BJB is something! Still not sure about KC being apart from TL that morning but he does say there are times he lends her his vehicle to run errands before he leaves for NY so BJB's theory sounds pretty good. (Even though I can't believe KC would have the gall to try to get those gas cans again after the 24th - then again, it is KC so I guess I can believe it.)

Yes, this was all info I got from the posts of BJB and JWG, I believe. The theory is that it was TL's car, but was mistaken by George...don't know how close he got to the car. IF it was the 29th, the increase in calls from Cindy to Casey around July 1st might be connected. The increase in calls is dramatic, IMO.

 

[Searchfortruth]

actually, GA wasn't working 3-11 that day - he had interview with Andrews International that evening (6pm-ish) and was going to hang around the house before getting ready to go to the interview

I was sure he had to work that day, uh oh...Thanks for the info !

 

[Whisperer]

If I were George, I would have chased her arse down the day of the gas cans. I would have been really angry when she pushed the f d^%m cans in my stomach..

About the break- as I recall LE found no prints when they examined the scene......hmmm.

 

[Searchfortruth]

OK, now I am questioning if George worked on June 29th, a Sunday. I just read over the ping map thread for June 29th, and a wonderful post, written by BJB, said that George was working Sunday through Thursday during this time frame...is this right ? Link to ping map thread below...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73424"]Ping Map for June 29, 2008 - Discuss this day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[BondJamesBond]

IF it was the 29th, the increase in calls from Cindy to Casey around July 1st might be connected. The increase in calls is dramatic, IMO.

*snipped*

FWIW...call trends of interest [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3773492&postcount=636"]here[/ame].