General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

[danzn16]

From larry.hannigan.31 - February 20, 2013 at 11:07
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Oscar-faces-another-gruelling-day-in-court-20130219

"After reading the official affidavit (@barrybateman has a link), THREE things stand out.

1. Oscar claims it was pitch dark (he closed the blinds) when he walked to fetch the gun at his bed after hearing someone in the bathroom and thought Reeva was still lying in bed.

Wouldn't he have seen Reeva in the light when he first woke up?

2. He also claims that he could see the bathroom door was locked and the bathroom window was open. Surely if you can see 7m into the bathroom, you could see 1m to see your girlfriend lying in bed.

3. He felt vulnerable on his stumps, why would you then walk into the bathroom on the tile floor where grip is diminished if you feel vulnerable? Why would you approach the toilet with this sense of vulnerability? The bathroom and toilet are 2 different rooms, toilet 1mx1,4m, shooting into such a confined space practically guarantees impact and you have to be in the bathroom to fire into toilet.

City Press stands by the info given to them by 2 SAPS sources, namely Reeva's ipad on the floor (which Hougaard apparently messaged her on, and ipad is expensive to just leave on the floor, which might suggest struggle) and one bullet casing in the bedroom and 3 in the bathroom.

The State is confident in their case, blood splatter patterns from bedroom to bathroom would indicate and support bullet casing in bedroom, and Reeva was shot in bedroom first.

I fully supported Oscar and truly hoped it was an accident, but looking at the evidence (save the Hougaard speculation) I am convinced this was pre-meditated murder. I think the State can easily raise a case beyond reasonable doubt."

I agree if you feel vulnerable on stumps why not get your weapon and but your prosthesis on before you confront an intruder? You still have your weapon so you'd be ready and if intruder didn't come out before you got them on you'd have more if an advantage. Doesn't make sense.

 

[joe jones]

my South African friends are astounded at just how hard the state has come out swinging in this case, from the first day when the tidbit of previous domestic call outs to his home being revealed to the constant leaking of the evidence, if you read the South African papers most of the evidence has already been leaked before the court even opens in the morning,

there is a lot of politics mixed up in this case, the high crime rate in SA is an issue, the huge rate of domestic violence is an issue, the fact that many feel the need to be highly armed at home even when they live in a secure gated community,

today the state got a bit of a smack down, I expect they will go back lick there wounds and begin a better investigation and presentation of the evidence,

for one thing they need to do testing before they announce things in court, is it testosterone or herbal remedy needs sorting out, how tall is Oscar without legs versus Oscar with legs so they can determine if he fired bullets with or without prosthetics, phone records they slipped up on, seems he did make a call to paramedics which police did no know of,

state need to take a proper independent look at all the evidence and do a better job of presenting there case

 

[Inobu]

The details paints a different account.

Mr Botha, who has 16 years' experience as a detective, said he believed the bullets were fired down, suggesting that Pistorius was wearing his prosthetic legs when the shots were discharged.

Gerrie Nel, the chief prosecutor asked Mr Botha if the shots were fired directly at the toilet basin and he agreed.

'If you fire straight at the door, you miss the toilet,' he explained.

Police believe a cricket bat found in the bathroom was used to break down the door to the toilet - part of the door was lying in the bathroom. One bullet cartridge was found outside bathroom while three others were inside.

On the shower mat in the en-suite bathroom lay a firearm and an iPhone 4 and iPhone - there were blood spatters on one of the phones.

Mr Botha said four phones in total were found in the athlete's home and none of them had been used to call emergency services.

----------------------

There is a difference in blood splatter and blood smudges.

The question is who owns the phone with the splatter?

If the phone with the splatter is Reeva's then the phone was in or near Reeva's possession during the attack. This could indicate an intent to call for help.

The introduction of the iphone with splatter starts to point in the direction of an domestic altercation rather than an intruder scenario. If the neighbors testify that the argument was followed by shooting then the affidavit can be ruled as fabricated.

The affidavit paints one picture of the event and the devices found at the scene will either collaborate or refute it.

It is a good chance the prosecution is only presenting enough evidence to address the bail hearing.

Inobu

There is a lot of conflicting information that skews our view.
The bathroom layout is contradicting so watch closely for accurate info

The image has toilet facing door where as the bathroom plan (drawing) has the toilet facing the side wall. This is why the detective said if you shoot straight at the door you will miss the toilet
According to the drawing there is no sink in the toilet room.

 

[Carol70]

This SA court system is really good for us sleuthers. We would never have this kind of information and insight into a case in the US at this point, just from a bail hearing. Typically, there isn't any discussion about the evidence or merits, which would usually be discussed at a preliminary hearing. A bail hearing is usually straightforward-criminal background, seriousness of the crime, liklihood of flight risk, etc...

It's because we don't have jury trials, the judge cannot be swayed by what is said in the media, at bail etc. he will only look at the facts presented to him. I find it hugely frustrating sometimes when I follow cases on WS and the wait is so long for info ( April Jones case)... Anyhow, after tomorrow, things will die down and it will be a long wait until trial as he will most likely plead not guilty. It could be up to a year before the trial starts and it could go on for a good few years. Least in other countries, a trial starts and ends within weeks with a verdict.

 

[21merc7]

OK..thanks for this...I am assuming that this is a single-family home I am looking at and not an apartment complex. I would love to know where the witness lives. Is he right next door? If so, that isn't really 300 yards. Do they actually have a visual of the bedroom window from their home? Did the people right next door hear anything? I now have more questions than answers.

This SA court system is really good for us sleuthers. We would never have this kind of information and insight into a case in the US at this point, just from a bail hearing. Typically, there isn't any discussion about the evidence or merits, which would usually be discussed at a preliminary hearing. A bail hearing is usually straightforward-criminal background, seriousness of the crime, liklihood of flight risk, etc...

I have more questions too. Since we know that LE isn't finished, forensics isn't finished, prosecution isn't finished, we can be happy that we got this much info so far.

Found another picture of the complex, there is some space between some homes, look for all the white cars and you can pinpoint his toward the upper/mid right. I have no idea where the neighbor(s) lived:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/14/article-2278492-17932845000005DC-654_634x356.jpg

From this article and can compare with the first pic provided in this article as well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-MURDER-model-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

 

[Carol70]

my South African friends are astounded at just how hard the state has come out swinging in this case, from the first day when the tidbit of previous domestic call outs to his home being revealed to the constant leaking of the evidence, if you read the South African papers most of the evidence has already been leaked before the court even opens in the morning,

there is a lot of politics mixed up in this case, the high crime rate in SA is an issue, the huge rate of domestic violence is an issue, the fact that many feel the need to be highly armed at home even when they live in a secure gated community,

today the state got a bit of a smack down, I expect they will go back lick there wounds and begin a better investigation and presentation of the evidence,

for one thing they need to do testing before they announce things in court, is it testosterone or herbal remedy needs sorting out, how tall is Oscar without legs versus Oscar with legs so they can determine if he fired bullets with or without prosthetics, phone records they slipped up on, seems he did make a call to paramedics which police did no know of,

state need to take a proper independent look at all the evidence and do a better job of presenting there case

I absolutely agree with you however, most of the leaked info has been speculation and not fact..her bashed in head with the cricket bat to her being shot in the hip in the bedroom and running to the bathroom...it was confirmed today by the police themselves that it's all non sense and that oscars story could be a possibility. I do believe they must have more solid evidence that they are keeping for trial thou??

 

[robinparten]

I have not read through this whole thread, so please forgive me if I speak out of turn. I truly think his version of what happened is as likely as the version the prosecution is offering up. Witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and this detective has obviously not done his homework and it shows. And unless I have missed something, OP does not have a history of violent or weird behavior. I heard someone on the news yesterday who has been a friend of his since he was 11, and this friend also happened the be the sketch artist in court yesterday. He said that OP was a bit paranoid (my word, not his) because he is worth so much and people see dollar signs when they run into him, and apparently there have been frivilous allegations brought against him in the past, presumably for his money. So this friend said that OP was understandably skittish about his security etc.

So I guess my first reaction is tragic mistake. But then it took me a while to believe Scott Peterson could kill his wife too. I remember first looking at a picture of SP and Laci and saying to a co-worker, there is no way, he is living the American dream, nobody could be that stupid. But he was.

 

[joe jones]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162...ion-admits-error-over-testosterone-testimony/

bit of back tracking going on

 

[TheDuchess]

I founc this information on the neighborhood he lives in, but I'm not sure which lot is his, as I can't find an actual address. Also, it appears to still be under construction, so it is difficult to determine if there are more homes in there since the google photo was taken.

http://www.google.com/maps?q=silver...es&hnear=Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&z=17

http://www.silverwoods.co.za/

"Secu*rity

The estate is enclosed with a solid, elec*tri*fied secu*rity wall with strict access con*trol uti*liz*ing the lat*est secu*rity mea*sures through*out the estate. Regard*ing secu*rity as a high pri*or*ity, the ser*vices of a spe*cial*ist secu*rity con*sul*tant have been used to ensure the use of the lat*est technology.:

 

[21merc7]

I absolutely agree with you however, most of the leaked info has been speculation and not fact..her bashed in head with the cricket bat to her being shot in the hip in the bedroom and running to the bathroom...it was confirmed today by the police themselves that it's all non sense and that oscars story could be a possibility. I do believe they must have more solid evidence that they are keeping for trial thou??

I hope prosecution has more evidence or will have pieced it together by trial, and, of course, forensic tests will be back in. Must say, he has good defense attorneys. I wish all charged with serious crimes had attorneys that were that good at it and passionate about it.

 

[danzn16]

Botha says the witness's home is about 600m from Oscar's home. Gasps from the gallery. Oldwage shaking head. BB
Botha the witness did not specifically say hearing Oscar or Reeva's voice. BB

Wow that's 5 and a half football field lengths away. How can anyone hear yelling that far away? Did they confirm windows/ doors were open then I guess maybe that's a possibility.

 

[cityslick]

I founc this information on the neighborhood he lives in, but I'm not sure which lot is his, as I can't find an actual address. Also, it appears to still be under construction, so it is difficult to determine if there are more homes in there since the google photo was taken.

http://www.google.com/maps?q=silver...es&hnear=Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&z=17

http://www.silverwoods.co.za/

"Secu*rity

The estate is enclosed with a solid, elec*tri*fied secu*rity wall with strict access con*trol uti*liz*ing the lat*est secu*rity mea*sures through*out the estate. Regard*ing secu*rity as a high pri*or*ity, the ser*vices of a spe*cial*ist secu*rity con*sul*tant have been used to ensure the use of the lat*est technology.:

For perspective, using the map you linked, 1000 ft would be about Silverlakes Road to where the map dot is. Sorry, there is no way anyone is hearing what is specifically going on in that apartment, not with all those other houses around there.

About the phone in the bathroom, is is possible perhaps she brought the phone in there while she went to the bathroom (surf internet, play game, check email, etc). I know I do that from time to time.

 

[SweetT]

Wow that's 5 and a half football field lengths away. How can anyone hear yelling that far away? Did they confirm windows/ doors were open then I guess maybe that's a possibility.

Didnt the dude say he got up and closed the patio doors and brought the fan in? So prior to that the doors would have been opened?

 

[Carol70]

I founc this information on the neighborhood he lives in, but I'm not sure which lot is his, as I can't find an actual address. Also, it appears to still be under construction, so it is difficult to determine if there are more homes in there since the google photo was taken.

http://www.google.com/maps?q=silver...es&hnear=Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&z=17

http://www.silverwoods.co.za/

"Secu*rity

The estate is enclosed with a solid, elec*tri*fied secu*rity wall with strict access con*trol uti*liz*ing the lat*est secu*rity mea*sures through*out the estate. Regard*ing secu*rity as a high pri*or*ity, the ser*vices of a spe*cial*ist secu*rity con*sul*tant have been used to ensure the use of the lat*est technology.:

His house is there, it's to the left of the A arrow..it's the house that's almost at an angle. Also, if you look at the latest pictures of the estate (dailymail pic posted above) you will notice quite a lot of construction / development still going on currently....I could understand OP being slightly paranoid, everyday there would be labourers, construction people etc etc having access to the estate.quite a few high news stories about serious (murder) home invasions have happened after the victims have had work/renovations done to their homes.

 

[joe jones]

I totally agree about defence attys, if Oscar did not have the money to afford the best attys then we would only get to hear the states assertions with no push back, once the state made its evidence known today Oscar could have been convicted quite easily and locked in jail if it was a trial and not a bail hearing

but his very good defence attys knocked huge wholes in states assertions and opinions on what the evidence proves, and state will need to seriously up its game and do there job professionally if they ever hope to get any type of conviction, as these attys are already ahead of them and state is playing catch up

 

[danzn16]

Oh lawd, this just gets worse.

#OscarPistorius Roux you cantaminated the scene!
Botha: yes, there werent any foot covers left and I went to get something.

Omg this is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!! Wtf!!!

 

[21merc7]

Didnt the dude say he got up and closed the patio doors and brought the fan in? So prior to that the doors would have been opened?

All I can say, being a paranoid person in a high crime city, is, I would never fall asleep or even nap with a door or window open. Not going to happen, well, unless I was smashed out of my gourd and passed out, which I'm too paranoid to let happen. :what:

 

[Carol70]

Omg this is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!! Wtf!!!

I know...mad hey!!! I wouldn't be surprised if Investigator Botha is packing bags at Checkers by the end of the week!! I tell you.."shakes head" lolol..

 

[danzn16]

Botha later corrected himself and said they were 300 yards away!

I would like to know more about testo compositum coenzyme - the "herbal remedy" which is not a banned substance.

http://superhumangear.com/store_wp/...stes-compositum-testosterone-booster-10x1-ml/

http://www.shopping.com/Heel-Coenzyme-Compositum-100-tablets-Heel/info#keyFeatures

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...of-performanceenhancing-drug-use-8502857.html

So just 2.5 football fields now? What kind of detective work is this?!? This is unacceptable? Saying 600m already made that witness look discredited and now correcting it does not just undo that damage.

And what kind if steroids is this if its not even banned?

 

[TheDuchess]

I have more questions too. Since we know that LE isn't finished, forensics isn't finished, prosecution isn't finished, we can be happy that we got this much info so far.

Found another picture of the complex, there is some space between some homes, look for all the white cars and you can pinpoint his toward the upper/mid right. I have no idea where the neighbor(s) lived:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/14/article-2278492-17932845000005DC-654_634x356.jpg

From this article and can compare with the first pic provided in this article as well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-MURDER-model-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

http://www.google.com/maps?q=silver...es&hnear=Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&z=17

OK...I found the house-not sure of the address, but if you look at the link for the Google map, his house is straight to the left of the bottom roundabout in the photo (where you see the letter A.) You can see the house with the red roof on the corner, and then his to left of that and his is a bit angled and has the 2-tiers and then another white roofed house to the left of that.

Since I don't know when the image was taken, the other lots may very well be full, but it seems as though the homes are in close proximity to one another.

But if you look at the scale, it shows what 100 meters looks like and it's about 4-5 lots wide-that would put the neighbor 300 meters away as far away as the guard shack (at the top of the image) well past the lower round-a-bout, or if you go left, practically in the next subdivision over.

NOT CLOSE

I would like to have had LE know the distance as it is vitally important. 600 meters/300 meters??? What is it and is that even accurate???