General Discussion Thread #2

[Carol70]

If anyone is interested in doing so, I'd like to turn this around and discuss what elements of OP's statement have been corroborated so far.

For instance, he stated they were originally planning to go out separately with friends but Reeva asked if they could stay home together instead. If/when they cancelled their plans, what explanation did they give their friends? Hopefully these friends have been interviewed. Also, do their phones and iPads indicate they were sleeping between 10 and 3 as described, or was there any activity? Did any neighbors hear a male shouting briefly at 3:00am with no female counterpart heard, as OP has described? Do OP's phone records support his version of who he called and when? Is there a witness (from Netcare?) who confirms they directed OP to take Reeva to the hospital rather than waiting for paramedics?

I'm not sure on all your points but can confirm that the defence stated that they had called Netcare to confirm OP call, got the exact time he made the call and I'm sure all the details of the call. Sadly, the IO had failed to do this by the time he took the stand.

 

[Carol70]

Good point.

What are all the implications of the "missed toilet casing"?

Obviously if missed by the SAP forensics team, great ineptitude is implied. Should not all possibilities be considered? This includes planting by Pistorius' forensics people. But one would think this is unlikely as the casing can be matched to the gun. Unless a third possibility--at a deep level--collusion between the 2 sides.

Again, unlikely. But as I "saw" the lead investigator (Hilton Botha)--for the SAP unravel and he didn't seem to care--I thught there couldn't have been a better pick by the defense for the lead detective against them. and then the bombshell about his own impending trial.

Also something to consider...why did Botha tell OP family that he saw no reason why bail would be denied but then changed his mind??? What could possibly have been the thing that changed his mind?

 

[Carol70]

I can't seem to find any indepth transcripts of Botha's day on the stand...word for word..if anyone finds anything, Plse post link!

 

[Zinn]

I'm not sure on all your points but can confirm that the defence stated that they had called Netcare to confirm OP call, got the exact time he made the call and I'm sure all the details of the call. Sadly, the IO had failed to do this by the time he took the stand.

BBM.

This is good to know. Do you recall when this was stated by defense? Which day of the bail hearing? I'd like to go back and look for the quote to see exactly what information they confirmed. TIA.

 

[shane13]

Also something to consider...why did Botha tell OP family that he saw no reason why bail would be denied but then changed his mind??? What could possibly have been the thing that changed his mind?

Precisely.
It's like he's working both sides of the fence.

And consider that now, after the fact, the higher-ups have replaced Botha with their top detective.

But they knew his legal troubles from the shoot-up of 2 years prior.
Once it became known that O.P was involved in this shooting--why not replace Botha immediately, as it will come out due to worldwide scrutiny?

Again it is as if they left Botha there long enough to try to ruin their own case against OP.

 

[writer411]

I do have a little trouble with the neighbor saying she heard shots, then screaming, then shots. Did the 4 shots come 2 at a time? Doesn't seem plausible. Were more than 4 shots fired, and if so, why didn't attorneys allude to this?

these visual witnessless crimes are certainly vexing. But here's my thing. Unless he shot her dead with the first bullet, chances r, she screamed (what the neighbor allegedly heard), and he would have probably stopped shooting, if he didnt wish to kill her that is. She might have died with one bullet anyway, but a scream would have stopped him from firing more shots. Or, he shoots her dead on the toilet with the first shot, she falls to the floor with an audible thud, yet he keeps shooting?

Lets hope that good lighting in the courtroom doesnt keep justice for the victim from being served.

 

[shane13]

these visual witnessless crimes are certainly vexing. But here's my thing. Unless he shot her dead with the first bullet, chances r, she screamed (what the neighbor allegedly heard), and he would have probably stopped shooting, if he didnt wish to kill her that is. She might have died with one bullet anyway, but a scream would have stopped him from firing more shots. Or, he shoots her dead on the toilet with the first shot, she falls to the floor with an audible thud, yet he keeps shooting?

Lets hope that good lighting in the courtroom doesnt keep justice for the victim from being served.

IIRC, she was shot in the head, arm and hip. Arm and hip shots would not have been deadly.

Did he keep shooting until the shouting or other indications from her ceased, and then he could be sure she (or the "intruder") was dead?

Note that he did not empty the gun, as there would be more than 4 rounds therein.

Are the 4 shots further indication of willful murder? Shooting until he was certain she (or the "intruder") was dead?

 

[Zinn]

Also something to consider...why did Botha tell OP family that he saw no reason why bail would be denied but then changed his mind??? What could possibly have been the thing that changed his mind?

Carol70 - Curious to know when Botha said this. Do you know? If he said this, it would contradict police reports from that morning that specifically stated they planned to oppose bail. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21455843

 

[CountryGirl]

His statement says after he shot the bathroom door, he then goes back into the bedroom, notices Reeva is not in bed so he goes back out on the balcony and calls for help before going back into the bathroom.

He doesn't say after he sees Reeva isn't in bed that he checks the balcony to see if she is hiding out there --or-- if she had somehow unlocked the bedroom door and is hiding downstairs or run outside for help.

He seems pretty sure very soon that she was in the bathroom and he had shot her.

 

[natsound]

these visual witnessless crimes are certainly vexing. But here's my thing. Unless he shot her dead with the first bullet, chances r, she screamed (what the neighbor allegedly heard), and he would have probably stopped shooting, if he didnt wish to kill her that is. She might have died with one bullet anyway, but a scream would have stopped him from firing more shots. Or, he shoots her dead on the toilet with the first shot, she falls to the floor with an audible thud, yet he keeps shooting?

Lets hope that good lighting in the courtroom doesnt keep justice for the victim from being served.

Justice for victims is hard to come by these days, so I'm not getting my hopes up. And I was a big OP fan before this.

 

[Carol70]

BBM.

This is good to know. Do you recall when this was stated by defense? Which day of the bail hearing? I'd like to go back and look for the quote to see exactly what information they confirmed. TIA.

Day 2, while roux was grilling Botha...It was when roux asked him if he had followed up on the netcare call, Botha said no and roux said well that had and proceeded to give the time of oscars call.

I also wanted to confirm that why I was asking if anyone can find the transcripts for the day to post link.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/23/pistorius-wants-to-contact-steenkamp-family

Oscar Pistorius 'wants to contact' family of Reeva Steenkamp

QUOTE

It is not clear whether the Steenkamp family, who cremated their daughter last week, are ready for such a gesture. The late model's father, Barry Steenkamp, told South Africa's Beeld newspaper that Pistorius would have to "live with his conscience" if he was lying about how he had killed her.

The athlete would "suffer" alone if his claims that he mistook her for a burglar were false, he said. The warning came as what appeared to be Pistorius's first public comment on the case turned out to be the work of a hacker. "Thank-you to every person that has prayed for both families, Osca", said a message on his brother Carl's Twitter account. A spokeswoman for Pistorius said: "The tweet is not from Oscar or Carl. We can confirm that Carl's Twitter account has been hacked during this very tragic time. We are busy cancelling all the social media sites for both Oscar's brother and his sister."

The London Paralympic gold medallist, staying with his family at his uncle's house in the exclusive Pretoria suburb of Waterkloof, was visited by parole officers and a counsellor on Saturday. Under his bail conditions he cannot drink alcohol, return to his own home or leave the country and must report to a police station twice a week.

Karyn Maughan, a legal journalist at eNCA who has been following the case, said: "I strongly suspect his legal team will bring a challenge to the bail conditions. There was a degree of shock from both the defence and the prosecution that the magistrate added eight or nine conditions that hadn't been sought."

The condition that Pistorius be subjected to random alcohol and drug tests had caused particular disquiet, Maughan added. She also said that, according to his coach, Pistorius was due to see a psychiatrist on Tuesday. "Apparently he's not sleeping."

END QUOTE

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Trying to gain control .. I wonder if OP would also like to 'contact' some of the officials in this case. Watch and learn people, OP will show us how to get out of a murder with no jail time whatsoever.

 

[gitana1]

Gitana, as to your first point , I actually responded to the same post a few pages back..Plse respond, I would like to know your thoughts on my opinion.

Yep, it was me who mentioned that invaders often come through bathroom windows, the windows are small and rarely have bars on, usually a very small person or child is pushed though who then opens up a point of entry....or the invaders are less likely to encounter anyone on their way in.

The prior calls of a domestic nature actually were for when Oscar evicted a drunk woman from his house who then became nasty.

Can you quote the post you want me to respond to? It's too hard to find!!!

where does he say he dropped his weapon after shooting, he may have returned out of bathroom with gun in hand to bedroom, saw no Reeva in bed realised she was in toilet, and at this point returned to bathroom and dropped gun, he never says he dropped gun after shooting, his statement says he shot and returned to bedroom no mention of what he did with gun

Joe, you are totally right! I just relied on the other poster, believing it to be fact. He says nothing about the gun being dropped and in fact, he says he kept his eye on the door of the bathroom the whole way after he shot through the door!:

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html

Based on this and the fact that the prior domestic call was about a drunk guest, I am firmly back on the fence!

 

[otyikondo]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c1#/video/world/2013/02/22/tsr-foreman-magic-wall-pistorius.cnn

some excellent visuals here

A minor point, but looks to me that WC door is hinged wrong way. Would certainly not be very practical that way around (though I admit it does look much the same as the outline drawing shown in courtroom). I have seen other mock-ups with the door handle on the shower side, which would probably make more sense.

 

[Carol70]

I'm sorry about all these typos I'm making, this damn iPad has a mind of its own!!! I don't want to keep editing my posts so I'm just saying it now upfront.

 

[SyraKelly]

Trying to gain control .. I wonder if OP would also like to 'contact' some of the officials in this case. Watch and learn people, OP will show us how to get out of a murder with no jail time whatsoever.

I agree with this totally and I am thinking he probably already has..BOTHA

 

[natsound]

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/pistorius-syringes-odd-sport-scientist/

Pistorius syringes "odd"

 

[cityslick]

Trying to gain control .. I wonder if OP would also like to 'contact' some of the officials in this case. Watch and learn people, OP will show us how to get out of a murder with no jail time whatsoever.

As with all cases, I'm convinced there are those that will never believe what OP says or does, no matter what the real truth is. There is nothing OP can do that will convince those that think he murdered her intentionally (or maybe even not intentionally, just the the fact that he killed her period, accident or not).

Some will simple see that a young woman is dead, no matter the circumstance and that he will never be redeemed for it. Such is their opinion. It is a tragedy, no matter what.

 

[Carol70]

Carol70 - Curious to know when Botha said this. Do you know? If he said this, it would contradict police reports from that morning that specifically stated they planned to oppose bail. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21455843

I may be confusing myself but I'm sure it was about bail... Was bought up by Roux when Botha was on the stand.

 

[Carol70]

Can you quote the post you want me to respond to? It's too hard to find!!!



Joe, you are totally right! I just relied on the other poster, believing it to be fact. He says nothing about the gun being dropped and in fact, he says he kept his eye on the door of the bathroom the whole way after he shot through the door!: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html

Based on this and the fact that the prior domestic call was about a drunk guest, I am firmly back on the fence!

Lol, nevermind, I said almost exactly what Joe said!!