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IMO the defence was devious and did not hand the phone or the bullet or casing which they found in the toilet! I also wonder sbout the steroids. Were others removed by brother first? Was he just being smart? And the booties! They must have watched him looking for errors. Or was Botha corrupt and bribed? What about the overseas accounts on the computer stick?

Who knows what was meddled with before the police got a chance. I am not sure how the police could be expected to know there was yet another phone, since they had found several already.
 
From the article:



Okay, what does bullet "cartridge" mean in SA?
Im sure that means the actual bullet which means that IO should have realised that there was a bullet missing?? 4 casings in bathroom, Reeva shot 3 times, where was the 4th bullet??
 
Im sure that means the actual bullet which means that IO should have realised that there was a bullet missing?? 4 casings in bathroom, Reeva shot 3 times, where was the 4th bullet??

I don't know why that bugs me but it does.

Wiki says the cartridge is the entire thing, bullet, case, etc., before being shot. There is a diagram to explain. Of course, this may be just for U.S. explanations.

Bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thanks, it sounds like what we call a track suit too then (we would say track suit bottoms rather than pants - pants are pretty much always underwear here) We say hoodie too, or the generic "fleece" for any kind of top made of fleece fabric.

And yes, we say "loo" in the UK too. In fact we have many more slang names for the toilet, ranging from the twee to the forthright :) I agree that IME the toilet is either openly in the bathroom, or in an entirely separate room. I suppose with the arrangement here, one person can have a private pee while the other is brushing their teeth, say. On the other hand, you would disturb someone having a bath if you wanted to go through to use the toilet. Still, there are probably plenty of other toilets in that house, one for any eventuality!

As for the clothes that Reeva was wearing on the night. If you have seen the shot from the CCTV of her driving her car in, you will note that she is wearing a black top. IMO that is the one that she died in.
 
From the article:

Okay, what does bullet "cartridge" mean in SA?

This is the article.

Door is key to Oscar defence

February 25 2013 at 07:55am

Oscar Pistorius stands in the dock during a break in court proceedings at the Pretoria Magistrate's Cour. File photo: Siphiwe Sibeko

Durban - Oscar Pistorius’s defence team is eagerly awaiting the opportunity to examine the toilet door through which Reeva Steenkamp was shot, calling it one of the most critical pieces of evidence still outstanding.

The door was removed by police before Pistorius’s team had the chance to examine the crime scene.

Durban forensic pathologist Reggie Perumal, who has been hired by the defence, said the State was only going to start its assessments of the door now that Pistorius’s bail application was over.

“It is critical that we examine this door so that we can see the trajectory of the bullets and establish exactly where she was in the toilet when she was shot. Next to the post-mortem results this is the most crucial information needed,” he said.

Perumal, who was present at the post-mortem of Steenkamp’s body and took more than 200 photos, said many of the rumours about the crime or events leading up to it, such as her having been pregnant, were easily ruled out.

“There was also a theory that Steenkamp had a clump of Pistorius’s hair in her hand when she died, but we even have photos of her hands and there were only two strands of hair on her hand and they were her own, long blonde hairs.”

State Prosecutor Gerrie Nel looks at the bathroom plan of Oscar Pistorius' house during a break in court proceedings at the Pretoria Magistrates court. Photo: Reuters

Reuters

Other information obtained during the post-mortem that was critical to Pistorius’s bail application was made known to the court via the former investigating officer’s testimony. One such bit of information related to Steenkamp’s bladder having been empty at the time she was killed, Perumal said.

“We decided to get as much of our evidence as we could through the investigating officer so that I did not need to be called as a witness during the bail application. He was at the autopsy so that was actually a blessing for Oscar.”

But it is not only the post-mortem that Perumal relied on as he also assessed the crime scene. In fact, it was he who, through seeing a particular mark on the toilet wall, realised that a bullet cartridge was in the toilet and suggested it be retrieved.

“A lot of injustices are done in criminal cases because of improper crime scene investigation,” he said.

Perumal also told how bloody swipes from Steenkamp’s hair – as well as other blood markings in the house – supported Pistorius’s story of where he picked her body up and carried it.

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes. And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time. There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

Perumal added that it had been frustrating to listen to the many “wrong conclusions” expressed by almost every person who had been following this case, as he could do nothing more than listen. And although so many people had “now become experts” on the matter, he, next to Pistorius, was possibly one of the few people who had an accurate idea of what really happened the night Steenkamp was killed. But his lips were sealed – until he testified at the trial.

bronwyn.fourie@inl.co.za

The Mercury
 
Yes, the door is crucial.

Good to hear they have about 200 photos.

How come we never heard the pregnant rumor here? We've heard plenty more, lol!
 
Yes, the door is crucial.

Good to hear they have about 200 photos.

How come we never heard the pregnant rumor here? We've heard plenty more, lol!

I guess the media did not believe that one.
 
PISTORIUS'S AUNT IS ONE OF SOUTH AFRICA'S TOP MURDER EXPERTS

Oscar's aunt Micki Pistorius is a top criminal profiler

In yet another sensational twist to emerge from the Oscar Pistorius case - it has emerged his aunt is one of South Africa's top criminal profilers.

Micki Pistorius, 52, is the author of 'Profiling Serial Killers and other crimes in South Africa' and spent six years in the country's police department as founder of an investigative psychology unit.

She regularly attended court with the rest of the Pistorius family during his bail hearing last week, but has not made any public comment about his case.

A prosecution lawyer confirmed to The Independent yesterday that she will not be consulted about her nephew's psychology - although it is likely to be discussed in court.

The athlete has been accused of having 'a propensity for violence' during his bail hearing but magistrate Desmond Nair said he was not satisfied this had been proven.

In her book 'Catch Me A Killer', Dr Micki Pistorius claimed to have extra-sensory powers of perception which she called 'cryptesthesia'.

She has also made controversial comments about killers saying: 'Serial killers are not monsters; they are human beings with tortured souls. I will never condone what they do, but I can understand them.'
.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...check-meet-bail-conditions.html#ixzz2LuvBmont
 
Pistorius case descends into fresh farce after he fails to turn up at police station to meet his bail conditions... then court claims he doesn't have to
Reports: Due to attend station before 1pm local time (11am GMT)
World's media camped outside Brooklyn police station
Picture shows Reeva Steenkamp grinning as she arrives at his home in Mini
Ex-flatmate reveals Reeva felt 'caged' by Pistorius at start of relationship
She hadn't planned to stay the night at Pistorius's but changed her mind
He appeared in court just two days before his brother's bail hearing

By Sean O'hare, Dan Newling and Mark Duell

PUBLISHED:11:08 GMT, 25 February 2013| UPDATED: 13:17 GMT, 25 February 2013

Confusion is already surrounding Oscar Pistorius' bail conditions amid reports he had to present himself today at Brooklyn police station.

The world's media camped outside Brooklyn police station in what would have been the athlete's first public appearance since being released on bail on Friday.

Officials at Pretoria Magistrates' Court said Pistorius was expected to attend the police station by 1pm (11am UK time), but Eyewitness News said it had been told by a National Prosecuting Authority official that his attendance was not a requirement of bail.

Pistorius' bail was set at one million rand (£73,822) including 100,000 RND (7,382) in cash.

CCTV: The video stills apparently show 29-year-old model Reeva Steenkamp looking happy as she pulled up at the star's home in Pretoria, reported the respected South African investigative programme Carte Blanche

On camera: Miss Steenkamp was pictured on a camera pulling into the guarded entrance of the Silver Woods estate in her Mini Cooper car just before 6pm on the day before Valentine's Day

Conditions of his release include that he surrenders his passports and travel documents, does not visit his house where the model died and does not use any prohibited substances. He is also banned from drinking alcohol.

His legal team declined to comment today on reports that the athlete is considering approaching the North Gauteng High Court in Pretoria to ease his bail conditions.
 
It does not end the issue for me. The way I have put things together now is that Mr Myers identified the body as being Reeva but that does not mean that he could see if her skull was fractured or not. They probably did not want him to know before they told Reeva's parents. Reeva's parents never saw the body but were shown photos of it and then told that she was hit with a cricket bat.

So what was the sequence of events?

While Pistorius is asleep, Reeva on iPad gets message after midnight from Hougaard to wish her Happy Valentine's Day

Pistorius wakes up and sees Reeva on iPad and gets iPad from her to invade her privacy by looking at messages.

2-3am He goes into a jealous rage. They argue. She says she is leaving him. He locks bedroom door so she cannot escape and hides key from her.

Argument escalates and he hits her on head with cricket bat. She screams. Her skull is fractured. He reaches for gun and shoots her in the hip as she is running into the bathroom. She locks door of toilet. He realises he has overstepped the mark and he does not want anyone to know how violent he was with her. She has to die.

He waits 17 minutes while concocting his intruder story.

He has legs on. He goes to toilet and fires 3 shots.

Let me just get this straight. I'm not denying the possibility it COULD have gone down like this, but there are one or two stumbling-blocks unless of course you have an a priori conviction that the perp is a premeditated killer.

In the first place, having been beaten about the head with 3lb (1.4 kg) of willow wood swung at you with criminal intent to harm you, and to the point where you not only have a fractured skull but your skull is "crushed" (sic), and THEN having been shot in the hip, how do you run to the bathroom?

A blow sufficient to fracture a person's skull (let alone crush it) is also quite likely to lay them out or at least make them sufficiently groggy that they wouldn't be running anywhere in a hurry.

Furthermore, since to the best of my understanding all the bullets and casings discovered have been determined to be in the area of the bathroom itself (down a corridor with a right-angle bend in it, thus making it a little more difficult for the casings to be accidentally kicked into the bedroom), where is the evidence for an earlier shot at Reeva in the bedroom? I haven't seen this theory of one shot followed by three more put forward in open court - in fact it's sort of died the death ever since about February 18th/19th, when a few newspapers ran with it.

Has a shell casing been found in the bedroom?
Has a bullet been dug out of the bedroom wall?
If I have understood correctly all the material that has been made public in a court of law so far (thus discounting rumour and speculation and salacious tabloid gossip), there are four bullets accounted for, either found inside Reeva, in walls after having passed through her, or that one found subsequently by the defence forensics team (where precisely that was, I'm not sure, except it was in the WC - bowl, floor, wall, your guess is as good as mine... - and it's still unclear by all accounts whether that was a bullet or a casing - the terminology fluctuates from one article to the next).

Nothing I have read so far, save in the very early stages before the court hearing began, has firmed up the story of a first "wounding" shot in the bedroom. Or have I missed something vital here?

As for the locked bedroom door, mentioned specifically in the affadavit, where is the bit about "he locks the door and takes away the key"?

Perhaps I am here giving the perp the benefit of too much doubt, but my understanding of this - in the context of all we have to go on - is that the door to "the rest of the house" was routinely locked at night by folks in scary bits of SA in order to stave off the countless hostile intruders/rapists/murderers found there. It's sometimes even called by the grisly term "rape door" (see some earlier posts on here or in the earlier thread), and it is NOT to facilitate rape by the bedroom's occupant.

I'm by no means certain these intruders are as common as that, and certainly the Silver Lakes complex seems to have been well enough protected, but there is no accounting for some people's turbo-charged paranoia.

All the same, have I missed something here? Has "the key" ever been mentioned in court?
Indeed, IS there a key as such, or is this a bedroom door that is unlockable by turning a latch from the inside of the bedroom (more logical) but that offers privacy from without?

I am in the happy position of never having had to look at the exit wound of a 9mm slug shot through somebody's head, but I would imagine the skull on that side is a bit of an ugly mess. If I were a beat copper or paramedic giving a breathless report to a mate that was then picked up by the newspapers in the hours after the shooting, I might well say her skull was "crushed". I bet it wasn't a pretty sight.

Having a "bloodied cricket bat" on the scene and presumably taken away as evidence also offers plenty of scope for media speculation. One hopes that in due course we shall get a satisfactory resolution of this, with either woodchips from the toilet door or fibres from Reeva being found embedded in it. Until that time, I'd prefer to keep an open mind.

Reeva's half-brother Adam Steenkamp, by the way, has already firmly scotched the claims that police ever told the family she'd been bludgeoned with a bat. Why he would do that is up to you, but if it's all a clever ruse to get the defence thinking they've won, well, I think we're in the realm of reaching a bit.

:)

EDIT: Here's a link, too. http://www.anorak.co.uk/349029/sports/oscar-pistorius-did-the-daily-mail-lie-about-the-bloody-cricket-bat-and-reevas-head-injuries.html/

To some extent I'm sceptical about all this stuff simply BECAUSE of the utterly dire quality of the publications it keeps popping to the surface in... The Daily Mail is not much more nourishing than a Corn Flakes packet, and is mainly aimed at people who like to read their news off Corn Flakes packets. By the same token, of course, I should be sceptical of The Sun's reporting of Adam's denial, but the difference is that that is a deliberately NON-sensational claim - it plays DOWN the story rather than fanning the flames... That's not normally The Sun's style.
 
I'm not surprised that so many are willing to run with the 'head bashed in' story, no matter how unconfirmed it is, because it makes him more guilty. Maybe I'm just naive for believing what was said during the hearing, but Botha got up there and said she only had the bullet wounds. By this time, an autopsy would of been done to identify any other wounds other than bullet wounds. He was confidant enough to testify that she had no other wounds, including defensive wounds. Even though he's not a doctor, I would think it would be pretty apparent if there were injuries to the head (bruising, blood, etc). These explanation that the guy would purposely lie about that (for reasons unknown) because they want the guy to get bail is to me trying to explain something that is unexplainable. One last point on this. Was it reported that she was still alive when he brought her downstairs? Was this verified by the EMT? If true, how is it possible she was still alive after getting her head bashed in with a bat?

The second point, of the defense team finding the 4th bullet casing. Understand the timeline here. They found it a day later, after the police forensic team had been through the place. The bigger surprise to me is how the crime scene was released to the defense after only a day, but perhaps rules about this in SA are very different than in the US.
 
I'm not surprised that so many are willing to run with the 'head bashed in' story, no matter how unconfirmed it is, because it makes him more guilty. Maybe I'm just naive for believing what was said during the hearing, but Botha got up there and said she only had the bullet wounds. By this time, an autopsy would of been done to identify any other wounds other than bullet wounds. He was confidant enough to testify that she had no other wounds, including defensive wounds. Even though he's not a doctor, I would think it would be pretty apparent if there were injuries to the head (bruising, blood, etc). These explanation that the guy would purposely lie about that (for reasons unknown) because they want the guy to get bail is to me trying to explain something that is unexplainable.

The second point, of the defense team finding the 4th bullet casing. Understand the timeline here. They found it a day later, after the police forensic team had been through the place. The bigger surprise to me is how the crime scene was released to the defense after only a day, but perhaps rules about this in SA are very different than in the US.

Yes, I'm with you 100% on this first one, BUT...

Don't confuse this bit of clever explaining of awkward facts with some quite reasonable doubts in the public mind that the prosecution may not have wanted deep down to oppose bail, or that they might not have been leaned on from a considerable height not to make it TOO difficult to bail OP.

There is a considerable body of thought - and not just nut-job op-eds in the silly papers - that suggests having Oscar Pistorius in remand prison for the next six months could have been a very perilous exercise from South Africa's viewpoint.
The chances are that somebody would have hurt, raped, or whacked him, which would have left SA looking in an even sorrier mess than the publicity (bumbling cops, totally insane levels of violence and illegal gun ownership, corrupt politicians, hopeless forensics that lose samples often enough to render DUI charges a laughing-stock) has so far managed to do.

South African authorities need proper closure on this one, and to be seen to have done it right. Having him dead in a cell wouldn't have served that purpose at all.
 
Yes, I'm with you 100% on this first one, BUT...

Don't confuse this bit of clever explaining of awkward facts with some quite reasonable doubts in the public mind that the prosecution may not have wanted deep down to oppose bail, or that they might not have been leaned on from a considerable height not to make it TOO difficult to bail OP.

There is a considerable body of thought - and not just nut-job op-eds in the silly papers - that suggests having Oscar Pistorius in remand prison for the next six months could have been a very perilous exercise from South Africa's viewpoint.
The chances are that somebody would have hurt, raped, or whacked him, which would have left SA looking in an even sorrier mess than the publicity (bumbling cops, totally insane levels of violence and illegal gun ownership, corrupt politicians, hopeless forensics that lose samples often enough to render DUI charges a laughing-stock) has so far managed to do.

South African authorities need proper closure on this one, and to be seen to have done it right. Having him dead in a cell wouldn't have served that purpose at all.

I could see it from that point of view but then again if that is the case, it makes the bail hearing (and to a greater extent the SA justice system) a farce. Withholding evidence is once thing, outright lying to try to get a result other than what your arguing for something else. When you have no faith in the justice system as well as both sides of the aisle, then you have no justice period.
 
As for the clothes that Reeva was wearing on the night. If you have seen the shot from the CCTV of her driving her car in, you will note that she is wearing a black top. IMO that is the one that she died in.

I can't actually make out anything of her clothing at all, except that she seems to be wearing a sleeveless or even strapless top.

In the first place, having been beaten about the head with 3lb (1.4 kg) of willow wood swung at you with criminal intent to harm you, and to the point where you not only have a fractured skull but your skull is "crushed" (sic), and THEN having been shot in the hip, how do you run to the bathroom? ..............

(edited for space)

............. Nothing I have read so far, save in the very early stages before the court hearing began, has firmed up the story of a first "wounding" shot in the bedroom. Or have I missed something vital here?

I for one am not wedded to the idea of actual physical violence happening in the bedroom. I do think an altercation could have arisen there which eventually caused Reeva to flee to the bathroom, with OP in pursuit, possibly catching up as she reached the toilet doorway. But it's just one of various ways the events could have gone down.

As for the locked bedroom door, mentioned specifically in the affadavit, where is the bit about "he locks the door and takes away the key"? Perhaps I am here giving the perp the benefit of too much doubt, but my understanding of this - in the context of all we have to go on - is that the door to "the rest of the house" was routinely locked at night by folks in scary bits of SA in order to stave off the countless hostile intruders/rapists/murderers found there. ........

....... All the same, have I missed something here? Has "the key" ever been mentioned in court? Indeed, IS there a key as such, or is this a bedroom door that is unlockable by turning a latch from the inside of the bedroom (more logical) but that offers privacy from without?

I don't think it was, but OP in his statement certainly mentions feeling "trapped" because of the door being locked. This makes no sense of course, because he clearly had the means of unlocking it.
 
I can't actually make out anything of her clothing at all, except that she seems to be wearing a sleeveless or even strapless top.



I for one am not wedded to the idea of actual physical violence happening in the bedroom. I do think an altercation could have arisen there which eventually caused Reeva to flee to the bathroom, with OP in pursuit, possibly catching up as she reached the toilet doorway. But it's just one of various ways the events could have gone down.



I don't think it was, but OP in his statement certainly mentions feeling "trapped" because of the door being locked. This makes no sense of course, because he clearly had the means of unlocking it.


I can't see the top either.

Have no clue about anything at all happening in the bedroom.

Mostly, that last sentence is another point that sticks in the back of your mind since the 1st day it was stated. I hope there is some sort of explanation why being locked in the bedroom, when you must obviously be able to unlock the door, has some sort of simple and logical explanation. Right now I can think of none.

As and aside, I have no desire any longer to ever visit SA or any part of the continent after hearing all theses stories of injustice and crime. So much for tourism and money. Before I thought it would be a wonderful place to visit, and some parts may be, as my boss' experience shows. However, I wish to take no chances on that, my luck is not so good.
 
Mostly, that last sentence is another point that sticks in the back of your mind since the 1st day it was stated. I hope there is some sort of explanation why being locked in the bedroom, when you must obviously be able to unlock the door, has some sort of simple and logical explanation. Right now I can think of none.

I could understand it if it was Reeva who felt "trapped" in the bedroom because the door was locked .....
 
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