General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/eff-welcomes-kunene-resignation

Kenny Kunene was at OP's Bail Hearing in February. I wonder if he will be a defence witness for OP?

 

[shane13]

Interesting who is not on the list, IIRC--Quinton van der Burgh .

Oscar allegedly threatened to "break his legs snd **** him up" in front of other witnesses.

I guess if you have a $!Billion, you can get out of testifying.

 

[Estelle]

It is now becoming fashionable to use Pistorius defence strategy to shoot someone. I have read several cases like this recently and this is yet another one:

The intruder defense was famously invoked by Pistorius, a South African Olympic sprinter, who is awaiting trial on murder charges after shooting girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp through a locked bathroom door in February. He claimed he thought she was in bed with him and that whoever was in the bathroom was an intruder.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...-kin-intruder-article-1.1437316#ixzz2dAO7TyLr

I hope the Prosecution is able to prove their case and OP is imprisoned for at least 25 years otherwise there will be more murderers using this defence and thinking they can get off.

 

[Estelle]

Interesting who is not on the list, IIRC--Quinton van der Burgh .

Oscar allegedly threatened to "break his legs snd **** him up" in front of other witnesses.

I guess if you have a $!Billion, you can get out of testifying.

Yes, Shane, he should be on the list. He could still be subpoenaed but they are using Mark Batchelor to tell a similar story even though Mark was really only defending Quinton. I wonder if Samantha is still dating Quinton.

 

[shane13]

Yes, Shane, he should be on the list. He could still be subpoenaed but they are using Mark Batchelor to tell a similar story even though Mark was really only defending Quinton. I wonder if Samantha is still dating Quinton.

Estelle, well I think van der Burgh denied it was Sam Taylor, and/or that she and OP had broken up.It was not made clear when he proclaimed that he was not dating OP's GF.

And MB may not make the best withess for the Pros., because he first contacted OP and told him to lay off van der Burgh with stated or implied threats of his own. Oscar subsequenty told him off with similar eloquence that he would **** him up too and break his legs.

Van der Burgh would probably have made a better witness.

 

[Estelle]

Oscar Pistorius family & Anneliese Burgess vs. Rapport

However, he declined to accept that our coverage would result in an unfair trial (Pistorius stands accused of murdering his former girlfriend), as argued by his attorney – “that would indeed question the integrity of our judicial system”

http://www.presscouncil.org.za/Ruling/View/oscar-pistorius-family--anneliese-burgess-vs-rapport-2490

 

[Estelle]

Estelle, well I think van der Burgh denied it was Sam Taylor, and/or that she and OP had broken up.It was not made clear when he proclaimed that he was not dating OP's GF.

And MB may not make the best withess for the Pros., because he first contacted OP and told him to lay off van der Burgh with stated or implied threats of his own. Oscar subsequenty told him off with similar eloquence that he would **** him up too and break his legs.

Van der Burgh would probably have made a better witness.

I agree but does Quinton really have a right not to be a witness? I had always believed that Quinton had dated Sam Taylor.

Who do you think OP was dating in December besides Reeva? Was it a woman who does not live in South Africa? You seem to be up on OP's love life.

It now appears to me that Reeva liked OP more than he liked her and did not get the message. During that time, she surely would have known about his misdemeanors and other women so was she a woman who thought she could convert him or did she like just bad boys as most women do? Or was she really only after the celebrity image?

I sometimes have often felt that Reeva empathised with OP because she had fallen off a horse in her past and was virtually disabled for some time.

I read a comment recently that an insider claimed that their sex life was next to non-existent and he had other women for that.

It surely to me does not sound like OP was in love with Reeva and wanted to marry her but I predict that Divaris and Sam were asked by OP to make their relationship sound as if it was more serious than it was in their statement for the Bail Hearing. Divaris has a vested interest in his relationship with OP due to business. He probably made a lot of profit from OP buying cars from him.

I had to laugh when OP said in an interview once that at the age of 50! he imagined himself married with the picket fence! That did not make me think he was a man ready to settle down.

I also read that Reeva was smitten with OP before she even met him and Sam said that Reeva stalked her on Instagram wanting to know more about OP and it was Reeva who asked OP if she could accompany him to the Sports Awards in November 2011 not the other way around. Was Sam still dating OP then?

 

[Estelle]

THE UNKNOWN WITNESSES

It's not certain what connections a Johannesburg-based cage fighter has to the case. Also intriguing is what testimony may come from Elizabeth de Jager of the South African Weather Service.

http://www.bcnn5.com/2013/08/witnes...orius-temper-use-of-guns-in-murder-trial.html

Who is this cage fighter who will be a witness? What do you think he will be able to say?

 

[shane13]

I agree but does Quinton really have a right not to be a witness? I had always believed that Quinton had dated Sam Taylor.

Who do you think OP was dating in December besides Reeva? Was it a woman who does not live in South Africa? You seem to be up on OP's love life.

It now appears to me that Reeva liked OP more than he liked her and did not get the message. During that time, she surely would have known about his misdemeanors and other women so was she a woman who thought she could convert him or did she like just bad boys as most women do? Or was she really only after the celebrity image?

Rights? That's why I noted his $1B.

I do not know if Quinton really dated ST, only noted that he publicly denied it, or that OP and ST were done by that point.

I do not know who else OP was dating in December, besides Reeva, but ST was done by then.

As far as Reeva is concerned, the Myers have stated that it was OP who moved too quickly in on her.

And recenty Reeva's Mom stated or implied that there were problems from the getgo with Oscar--as told to her by Reeva.

Alas there was a statement in one of the Mags that Reeva was saavy to the "game." meaning getting publicity via celebrities. (Not that anyone deserves what she got.)

But even that fateful night, if cops and/or security were there earlier that night, she could have left with them and ended the relationship.

Maybe she thought it could be salvaged, until the shooting.
Very sad.

 

[shane13]

I read a comment recently that an insider said their sex life was next to non-existent and he had other women for that.

Snipped to highlight what you added.

Does it make sense to cite nameless commenters who may be mere supporters and not actually have any inside information?

It's like your recent post of a commenter who said tht OP was about to break up with Reeva and on that night.

Makes no sense to me, and nothing online that I could find.

In this IT day and age probably young folks send an email, tweet or such and will not have an elaborate Val. Day getogether to announce a break up. So posting such comments may be dubious.

 

[shane13]

THE UNKNOWN WITNESSES

It's not certain what connections a Johannesburg-based cage fighter has to the case. Also intriguing is what testimony may come from Elizabeth de Jager of the South African Weather Service.

http://www.bcnn5.com/2013/08/witnes...orius-temper-use-of-guns-in-murder-trial.html

Who is this cage fighter who will be a witness? What do you think he will be able to say?

I have no clue what the cage fighter might say.

The meteorologist we can speculate may state how much Moon was up when OP allegedly opened the balcony doors and brought in the fan; and how much light would have then been in the room.

 

[Coldpizza]

Attention please

If your stating something as fact then you need to provide a link. If you cant link it then don't post it.

WS is not a rumor mill. Sometimes they are allowed, but again you must clarify as a rumor.

If it's your opinion then say so.

Again, please don't toss about names that aren't part of the indictment. What if that was you? Would you wan't your name plastered all over the web?

You have a great discussion going on here but please keep in mind the above.

:tyou:

 

[shane13]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-had-a-bad-temper-20130216

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-will-break-your-legs-blade-runner-1.1427618#.Uhyh1X_bNad


Oscar's row with Quinton Van der Burgh was/is a very public matter.

And to summarize it, when OP got back from Olympics he believed Quinton was dating ST, and publicly threatened him at that racetrack. Mark Batchelor then contacted OP, and told him to lay off van der Burgh. But Oscar wasn't having it, and threatened him with the same words as I have cited above.

Oscar then was the one to contact the Hawks (SAPS Division).
Oscar wanted charges brought against MB, and Quinton wanted charges brought against Oscar.

Hawks brought in both Oscar and MB to settle their differences without charging anyone. I think Quinton too was talked out of trying to get criminal charges applied against OP. I recall talk of a civil suit, but do not know if Quinton went through with that.

I recall a Captain in the Hawks publicly declaring everything was settled without any charges.
See http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/oscar-didn-t-open-case-hawks-1.1427745#.UhyjjH_bNac

Above I was noting that with all this, it appears that Quinton would have made a much stronger witness for the Pros than MB. I recall Carol70 here citing MB's own history--readily found online--of his getting involved in fights and such and getting fired from his sports commentator job.

See e.g. here:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/supersport-to-read-the-riot-act-1.1153060#.Uhykqn_bNac

I think DT will have a field day with MB's own violent history. And Quinton's being threated by OP would have made a better witness for the Pros.
JMO

 

[Estelle]

Gwyn Guscott recalled their conversation: “I know of one argument that she had with Oscar. I don’t know who started the argument but I do recall her saying to me that, ‘Gwyn, you know how I am, I’m not a person that likes arguments so I walk away. So I left and I took two days to cool off and just think about what had happened and then I tried to patch things up.’”

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...re-fighting-before-her-death-her-mother-says/

Why isn't Gwyn Guscott or Reeva's parents witnesses for the Prosecution?

If it takes you two days for you to cool off from an argument with a guy, and you're a model who can attract any guy you want almost, why would you continue to pursue him and try to patch things up (as if it's your fault)?

IMO OP sounds like a misogynist who charms you off your feet at first and when you start loving them, they abuse you. I also think he has abandonment issues because his mother died when he was 15yo. Death of a loved one is the ultimate abandonment. For a woman who was so against domestic violence to the extent that she had planned to give a talk about it on Valentine's Day yet she was in a relationship with a man whose track record and even during the time she knew him was one of violence, fast cars and guns, it amazes me that it seems that Reeva kept going back for more.

I think she was quite naive for a 29yo woman and thought unconditional love conquered all. I was absolutely stunned when I read that Reeva did not even see OP for Christmas, knew he was in Cape Town and paid her own way there uninvited to be with him over New Year's Eve. I get the impression that Reeva was head over heels in love with OP and loved the challenge! I now see them as a very incompatible couple from what I have read. If it is true, that OP had intended to end their relationship that night, and go back to the party, why did they keep arguing? OP seems to have ignored her much of the night on the phone with a call at 6.30pm and another at 8pm for about 40 minutes, and the arguments started at 8pm according to ear witnesses, so it was already heated and loud, so I cannot understand why Reeva did not leave and meet Cecil Myers as planned about 10pm.

I used to think that OP would not allow her to leave but if he wanted to end it surely he could have told her over dinner and that would have been it. She would have gone back home with relationship ended and he could have gone back to his party as he wanted to do. Now there does not seem to have been any jealousy on OP's behalf with ex-boyfriends texting her as Francois Hougaard was out of the picture, so why stay when she was not wanted?

Had OP made promises to Reeva that he did not want to keep now eg living together? What on earth could they have been arguing so loudly about for seven hours enough to end in Reeva's death? My main hunch is that she found out a secret about him that night that he did not want anyone to know eg illegal drugs at the Olympics and cocaine is one of them.

My curiosity on this case stems from this aspect.

What do you think they could have been arguing about?

I wonder if at the trial we will get to know the truth about this. That is why, like Reeva's parents, I want to know, "Why did you kill our daughter?"

Nothing makes sense to me right now. What about you?

 

[shane13]

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...re-fighting-before-her-death-her-mother-says/

Why isn't Gwyn Guscott or Reeva's parents witnesses for the Prosecution?

If it takes you two days for you to cool off from an argument with a guy, and you're a model who can attract any guy you want almost, why would you continue to pursue him and try to patch things up (as if it's your fault)?

IMO OP sounds like a misogynist who charms you off your feet at first and when you start loving them, they abuse you. I also think he has abandonment issues because his mother died when he was 15yo. Death of a loved one is the ultimate abandonment. For a woman who was so against domestic violence to the extent that she had planned to give a talk about it on Valentine's Day yet she was in a relationship with a man whose track record and even during the time she knew him was one of violence, fast cars and guns, it amazes me that it seems that Reeva kept going back for more.

I think she was quite naive for a 29yo woman and thought unconditional love conquered all. I was absolutely stunned when I read that Reeva did not even see OP for Christmas, knew he was in Cape Town and paid her own way there uninvited to be with him over New Year's Eve. I get the impression that Reeva was head over heels in love with OP and loved the challenge! I now see them as a very incompatible couple from what I have read. If it is true, that OP had intended to end their relationship that night, and go back to the party, why did they keep arguing? OP seems to have ignored her much of the night on the phone with a call at 6.30pm and another at 8pm for about 40 minutes, and the arguments started at 8pm according to ear witnesses, so it was already heated and loud, so I cannot understand why Reeva did not leave and meet Cecil Myers as planned about 10pm.

I used to think that OP would not allow her to leave but if he wanted to end it surely he could have told her over dinner and that would have been it. She would have gone back home with relationship ended and he could have gone back to his party as he wanted to do. Now there does not seem to have been any jealousy on OP's behalf with ex-boyfriends texting her as Francois Hougaard was out of the picture, so why stay when she was not wanted?

Had OP made promises to Reeva that he did not want to keep now eg living together? What on earth could they have been arguing so loudly about for seven hours enough to end in Reeva's death? My main hunch is that she found out a secret about him that night that he did not want anyone to know eg illegal drugs at the Olympics and cocaine is one of them. My curiosity on this case stems from this aspect.

What do you think they could have been arguing about?

I wonder if at the trial we will get to know the truth about this. That is why, like Reeva's parents, I want to know, "Why did you kill our daughter?"

Nothing makes sense to me right now. What about you?

BBM: You do know that there is extensive drug testing at Olympics for athletes? And indeed year round too. There appears to be no basis for claiming such rumors.

 

[Estelle]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-had-a-bad-temper-20130216

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-will-break-your-legs-blade-runner-1.1427618#.Uhyh1X_bNad


Oscar's row with Quinton Van der Burgh was/is a very public matter.

And to summarize it, when OP got back from Olympics he believed Quinton was dating ST, and publicly threatened him at that racetrack. Mark Batchelor then contacted OP, and told him to lay off van der Burgh. But Oscar wasn't having it, and threatened him with the same words as I have cited above.

Oscar then was the one to contact the Hawks (SAPS Division).
Oscar wanted charges brought against MB, and Quinton wanted charges brought against Oscar.

Hawks brought in both Oscar and MB to settle their differences without charging anyone. I think Quinton too was talked out of trying to get criminal charges applied against OP. I recall talk of a civil suit, but do not know if Quinton went through with that.

I recall a Captain in the Hawks publicly declaring everything was settled without any charges.
See http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/oscar-didn-t-open-case-hawks-1.1427745#.UhyjjH_bNac

Above I was noting that with all this, it appears that Quinton would have made a much stronger witness for the Pros than MB. I recall Carol70 here citing MB's own history--readily found online--of his getting involved in fights and such and getting fired from his sports commentator job.

See e.g. here:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/supersport-to-read-the-riot-act-1.1153060#.Uhykqn_bNac

I think DT will have a field day with MB's own violent history. And Quinton's being threated by OP would have made a better witness for the Pros.
JMO

I agree the Defence will try to discredit him.

 

[shane13]

I agree the Defence will try to discredit him.

And I agree with you that Reeva's parents would probably make great witnesses for the Pros. But there may be emotional and legal reasons for not calling them. I am not a lawyer.
JMO

 

[Estelle]

BBM: You do know that there is extensive drug testing at Olympics for athletes? And indeed year round too. There appears to be no basis for claiming such rumors.

I only gave that as an example to possibly predict a motive for OP to get so mad with Reeva that he killed her. I posted an article recently that suggested that OP since the Olympics had been mixing in bad company and illegal drugs could be one of the reasons for that comment or it could have been alcohol, etc.

Maybe not at the Olympics but since the Olympics to clarify my thoughts there.
What I have been wondering about is why this argument was so bad that it led to a death and neither person could just walk away.

 

[Estelle]

Snipped to highlight what you added.

Does it make sense to cite nameless commenters who may be mere supporters and not actually have any inside information?

It's like your recent post of a commenter who said tht OP was about to break up with Reeva and on that night.

Makes no sense to me, and nothing online that I could find.

In this IT day and age probably young folks send an email, tweet or such and will not have an elaborate Val. Day getogether to announce a break up. So posting such comments may be dubious.

If you have read my previous posts on this the MSM has now claimed that OP did not garage his car that night and left his keys in the ignition as if he had planned to go out again for a Boys Night Out, and that OP had not just had lunch with Divaris that day but OP had actually been attending a party with a real estate agent as it was the 10th Anniversary of their business. As OP's house was apparently up for sale at the time, she had probably listed his house.

IMO he had probably hoped to go back to it after he saw Reeva that night or for the Boys night out. This is in the MSM.

So IMO he COULD have been planning to break up with Reeva as he had no present or card for her on Valentine's day.

OP was unable to see her for the next couple of nights as she was giving her talk the next night and he was planning to go to a party on the Friday night according to Alex who made a statement and on the Saturday night Reeva's TV show was going to be shown so we can assume she wanted to watch that but they could have been together then.

 

[shane13]

If you have read my previous posts on this the MSM has now claimed that OP did not garage his car that night and left his keys in the ignition as if he had planned to go out again for a Boys Night Out, and that OP had not just had lunch with Divaris that day but OP had actually been attending a party with a real estate agent as it was the 10th Anniversary of their business. As OP's house was apparently up for sale at the time, she had probably listed his house.

IMO he had probably hoped to go back to it after he saw Reeva that night or for the Boys night out. This is in the MSM.

So IMO he COULD have been planning to break up with Reeva as he had no present or card for her on Valentine's day.

OP was unable to see her for the next couple of nights as she was giving her talk the next night and he was planning to go to a party on the Friday night according to Alex who made a statement and on the Saturday night Reeva's TV show was going to be shown so we can assume she wanted to watch that but they could have been together then.

Thanks, but it would be good to include the links now--as I did just above now (as asked by MOD) RE MB and Quinton VDB. Because saying it s a MSM article, when you've been quoting the anonymouis comments on them is not the same. The latter can, and often are, baseless rumors.