George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[GarAndTeed]

Not sure many people understand just how literal this is. While in hospital I stopped breathing twice. I went from conscious, breathing and even speaking to being put on life support just minutes later.

(On the bright side, I am now rocking a pretty badass tracheostomy scar in the shape of a heart. Silver linings and all. )

That must have been terrifying! So sorry you had to experience this; very glad you're hanging in there! <hugs>

 

[MadMcGoo]

I think it’s important, as in every case, to remember... we are ALL only human.

 

[btfly547]

I was surprised that the contents weren't sent for testing, so now we won't know. My guess is... they didn't, because at the time they didn't know about the pill in the back of the squad car, I wonder if it would have been tested had the ME known that at the time of autopsy.

I don’t pay attention to a lot of autopsy reports, but are gastric contents typically sent for toxicology? Or do you mean to examine contents for pill fragments?
Honestly asking because I don’t know.

 

[btfly547]

2 totally separate things I feel the prosecution could have drilled in on much, much more.
DC weighed ~ 140, but I believe it was Reyerson who stated the extra equipment he was carrying was another 30-40 pounds. Not that the weight matters to me because obviously whatever the weight it was too much, but there’s a bit of a difference between 140 and 180.

2nd point was brought up by one of the doctors. When the blood was drawn and at what part of the body it was drawn from makes a huge difference in drug concentrations in a deceased person. Drawing blood from a femoral vein/artery early in CPR could possibly have a monumental difference in value compared to drawing from hand/arm even 5 minutes after circulation has stopped. One doctor touched on this on a question from Nelson, but it was not followed up on by the prosecution.

 

[btfly547]

Another random thought. I wonder what GF’s medical RX history was like? I vaguely remember the girlfriend mentioning GF having back pain and became addicted to pain meds after that. Very common until the last few years when changes have been made to how opioids are prescribed.
Just makes me wonder how long/what strength of meds he was prescribed and if he’s been taking street opioids for a while then there would be no telling how high his tolerance would be to get a “high” or “pain relief” depending upon how one looks at it.

I’m in the medical field and have seen the other side of the crackdown on prescribing of controlled meds. There’s millions that live with chronic pain/anxiety everyday that have doctors unwilling to prescribe a therapeutic dose or even any dose for fear of lawsuits, etc. That part I’ve seen hundreds of time and not sure what that group is to do.

 

[kittythehare]

George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’

 

[ACE422]

yes this report and testimony will make sense to her and I think she will have some strong opinions...I don't know how far the March intervention at HCMC went...I mean he was there for 5 days per Courteney testimony but have to think some sort of angioplasty or procedure may have been suggested at that time. With that situation together with drugs on board clearly everything that happened had a more significant impact on GF than a more healthy individual. I think at the end of the day cause of death was a combination of things and frankly I would not want to have to make decisions based on that. BAsed on what I saw on video and absent any medical testimony (not possible I know) my vote is for min. 3rd and I might go for 2nd.

IMO- saying the officer is not guilty due to health conditions the person may have had that “contributed” (not caused) the person’s death would be a dangerous precedent to set. It would be similar to a diabetic who underwent a surgical procedure. Surgeon completely botched the procedure, didn’t follow proper procedures and infection control practices, had coworkers who testified to the blatantly improper nature of the surgeon’s actions, then the surgeon declined to give proper care he was obligated to give when it was apparent that there was a medical complication during the surgery. “Well, he was diabetic, so he was high risk anyway.” That doesn’t excuse the surgeon’s actions when it was ultimately the surgeon’s actions that caused the death. IMO.

 

[Gibbo214]

I don’t pay attention to a lot of autopsy reports, but are gastric contents typically sent for toxicology? Or do you mean to examine contents for pill fragments?
Honestly asking because I don’t know.

Both, usually.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Is it correct the first prosecution team — who were removed and will possibly testify for the defense — reviewed the findings from/with Baker and ultimately decided to not follow through with charges? I’m trying to understand why Nelson would have requested their removal from the case.

 

[missy1974]

I don’t pay attention to a lot of autopsy reports, but are gastric contents typically sent for toxicology? Or do you mean to examine contents for pill fragments?
Honestly asking because I don’t know.

I think it depends on the case. In this case though, the moment they had an idea that GF possibly ingested pills while being detained, it probably would have been a good time to test it, according to the autopsy, they did retain the contents. I'm unsure whether it could be done now or not? We know Baker did not, I have no idea if this is something that the defense would be able to test without a court order, so I doubt it.

2 totally separate things I feel the prosecution could have drilled in on much, much more.
DC weighed ~ 140, but I believe it was Reyerson who stated the extra equipment he was carrying was another 30-40 pounds. Not that the weight matters to me because obviously whatever the weight it was too much, but there’s a bit of a difference between 140 and 180.

2nd point was brought up by one of the doctors. When the blood was drawn and at what part of the body it was drawn from makes a huge difference in drug concentrations in a deceased person. Drawing blood from a femoral vein/artery early in CPR could possibly have a monumental difference in value compared to drawing from hand/arm even 5 minutes after circulation has stopped. One doctor touched on this on a question from Nelson, but it was not followed up on by the prosecution.

On your 2nd point, I listened to some of Dr. Toobins testimony again last night, he did point out that taking the arterial reading for Carbon dioxide was what mattered, is that what you are thinking of?

 

[missy1974]

So last week, some of us were discussing what looked like the lack of urgency with the paramedics. When I was listening to Dr. Toobin, I took a few notes... from his testimony:

GF's last breath was at 20:25:16
paramedics arrived at 20:27:45
first oxygen given to GF at 20:35:06
Nelson than asks him is he was aware that the hospital was 5 minutes away from where they picked up GF.

I didn't know that it took that long in the ambulance... and I didn't know the hospital was that close.

I also had another note ...
Dr. Toobin said that less than 10% of smokers have lung problems, 90% do not!!!!! I'm a smoker... I am shocked by that. I thought I had heard that the other day, but thought I must have been mistaken

 

[kittythehare]

So last week, some of us were discussing what looked like the lack of urgency with the paramedics. When I was listening to Dr. Toobin, I took a few notes... from his testimony:

GF's last breath was at 20:25:16
paramedics arrived at 20:27:45
first oxygen given to GF at 20:35:06
Nelson than asks him is he was aware that the hospital was 5 minutes away from where they picked up GF.

I didn't know that it took that long in the ambulance... and I didn't know the hospital was that close.

I also had another note ...
Dr. Toobin said that less than 10% of smokers have lung problems, 90% do not!!!!! I'm a smoker... I am shocked by that. I thought I had heard that the other day, but thought I must have been mistaken

They may have, actually, I think they did move him to the ambulance to begin working on him.
Well 10% is high enough when one considers bed occupancy.
I'm a smoker too..
He's working in that specific field, I imagine he is drawing from good research..

 

[dixiegirl1035]

George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’

Thanks, I had never read this before.

"He had his mother’s name tattooed on his belly, a fact that was noted in his autopsy."

 

[RANCH]

So last week, some of us were discussing what looked like the lack of urgency with the paramedics. When I was listening to Dr. Toobin, I took a few notes... from his testimony:

GF's last breath was at 20:25:16
paramedics arrived at 20:27:45
first oxygen given to GF at 20:35:06
Nelson than asks him is he was aware that the hospital was 5 minutes away from where they picked up GF.

I didn't know that it took that long in the ambulance... and I didn't know the hospital was that close.

I also had another note ...
Dr. Toobin said that less than 10% of smokers have lung problems, 90% do not!!!!! I'm a smoker... I am shocked by that. I thought I had heard that the other day, but thought I must have been mistaken

One of the main reasons why I quit smoking was because I didn't want to have lung problems. I guess the odds of that were not very high. JMO

 

[jellybeanz]

Eric Nelson brought up "pulmonary edema" on Friday.

His question to the expert was along the lines of "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"? and the expert replied 'yes'.

For me, this was a huge moment in the case.
Nelson had been slowly building his case with the previous medical experts, carefully pointing to this (pulmonary edema) as being the major factor in GF's death.

A 90% blockage in that part of the heart, along with a 75% blockage in another part of the heart was compelling and none of the experts could disagree when questioned about this.

I've been greatly impressed with Eric Nelson, I think he is an excellent Defence Attorney.

<modsnip: off topic>

 

[MadMcGoo]

Eric Nelson brought up "pulmonary edema" on Friday.

His question to the expert was along the lines of "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"? and the expert replied 'yes'.

For me, this was a huge moment in the case.
Nelson had been slowly building his case with the previous medical experts, carefully pointing to this (pulmonary edema) as being the major factor in GF's death.

A 90% blockage in that part of the heart, along with a 75% blockage in another part of the heart was compelling and none of the experts could disagree when questioned about this.

I've been greatly impressed with Eric Nelson, I think he is an excellent Defence Attorney.

Whilst talking of excellent Defence Attorney's, I'd like to pay respect to Patrick McGuiness who died recently at the age of 70.
RIP Patrick.

Patrick McGuinness dies: Defense lawyer 'represented the best' (jacksonville.com)

I agree, and agreed at the time, this was huge.

 

[Gibbo214]

I used to type up post mortem examinations. Every single one had some level of pulmonary oedema. Even babies who had died of SIDS.

 

[kittythehare]

I agree, and agreed at the time, this was huge.

Dr. Baker described George Floyd’s lungs as “edematous,” meaning fluid-filled. He said this was a non-specific finding — it has multiple potential causes, including the CPR that Floyd received. It's possible that the defense will ask whether it might have been a rare complication of fentanyl use known as flash pulmonary edema.
Drugs and Heart Disease Were ‘Not Direct Causes’ of Floyd’s Death, Medical Examiner Says

 

[MadMcGoo]

This is what took me by surprise. I couldn’t understand... how? Why?

His question to the expert was along the lines of "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"? and the expert replied 'yes'.

 

[kittythehare]

This is what took me by surprise. I couldn’t understand... how? Why?

His question to the expert was along the lines of "given that he survived and made it to the hospital for a period of time"? and the expert replied 'yes'.

Their entire testimonies were posted yesterday, I posted them and I think somebody else did as well.