George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

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Obviously now we can say we definitely would have. But would we have? That I don’t know.

I think you might have followed procedure. It is procedure. It is not a wild guess on whether to do that, or even a call of personal decision ... it is in the training, it is in the procedures, it is also common sense.

And, in case he forgot, he was reminded twice by Lane.
 
I think you might have followed procedure. It is procedure. It is not a wild guess on whether to do that, or even a call of personal decision ... it is in the training, it is in the procedures, it is also common sense.

And, in case he forgot, he was reminded twice by Lane.
I’d like to think I would have.
 
I think the one thing we (likely) all can agree on is that we would have removed our knee from George's neck and rolled him into the recovery position - at the very least. George was not resisting. In fact, George fell unconscious.

This is the the hugest thing in this case. imo
I agree. I do think the officers behaved according to procedure up to that time. I don’t really think they exerted unnecessary force in try to get GF into the vehicle. He WAS a very large man and was actively resisting. I believe they tried placating him... offering to roll down window, and turning up the AC.
I just went back to view officer Lanes body cam video to refresh my memory. GF was extremely agitated... he claimed he was going to die, brought up Covid, multiple times said he couldn’t breathe, said he wanted to go to the ground. For all of these reasons, there is reasonable doubt as to the murder charges, IMO.
BUT, the fact that he was not moved into the recovery position when he stopped resisting and aid was not rendered is a slam dunk for the 2nd degree manslaughter charge. JMO
 
I missed most of today’s testimony and I wanted to clarify a few things, which prompted me to go back and watch the body cam footage again. I had been wondering about the spontaneous leg movement that experts testified occurred as a result of a seizure GF had (I can’t recall the exact name). I wanted to see if it were different from the initial “kick” I saw when he was being placed on the ground and it was. My question, and I don’t remember the defense bringing this up, was how would a non medical professional be able to distinguish that from an act of resistance? I couldn’t.

I guess maybe because I’ve been in many, many situations very similar to this, I see something different than most people when I watch these videos. GF was actively, and at times violently, resisting for most of this interaction. I feel like the UOF was justified. When experts testified to GF’s movements being efforts to breathe, I see more that he’s continuing to resist and tiring himself out in the process. All the way up to when the officer said “roll him onto his side”. I’m not sure I would have rolled him at that point either. From my perspective, he was still resisting. I had to go back and listen a few times when the officer did check his pulse to see what he said. I couldn’t hear over the radio traffic. I don’t know what would have been heard in person by different people.

At times when the crowd is yelling at these officers and some are responding, I can’t tell who’s talking to who and often times what everyone is saying. Especially the first time I watched it, which I feel could be similar to what each person would have experienced in that moment (I’m sure it was a little different in person). Meaning, they didn’t have the opportunity to rewind and listen to things again like we do. This goes back to that phenomenon I spoke of earlier (I’ve already forgotten the name). Basically, one would be able to hear people talking around you, but not necessarily hear specifically what anyone was saying at times.

I can see how people yelling what to do, even the off duty FF, would be distracting. Some would say it shouldn’t be and I agree to an extent. Attention was divided even though it shouldn’t have been. You’ve got an angry crowd of people yelling, I’d wonder if one had a gun (for example). Now you’ve got an actively resisting subject and the unpredictable crowd, along with other things. Where does one focus? Yes, there’s an officer “handling” the crowd and a couple more there with you. But in your mind, do you just stop worrying about all but one thing? A reasonable person might say YES, but could you? Reasonably? One might say, ‘well at least one officer said to roll him over’. Yes, but was he aware of what crowds like this are capable of? He hasn’t been on the job long, so maybe he has no clue they can turn on a dime. They seem innocent enough. So his attention is somewhere different than where others’ may be.

All these things would be going through my mind during this. And before you know it 9 minutes and 29 seconds has passed. The ambulance is there. Seems like in the blink of an eye. I’m sure that felt like an eternity to Mr. Floyd. Or maybe it didn’t. We can’t know.

Every time I watch the video in its entirety the things I would have done differently in that situation become fewer and fewer. At this point I honestly don’t know what one thing caused the death of GF. (ETA: Or played the greatest role) When I first heard about this case I thought I did. But now I just don’t know.

These are concerns/feelings I would bring up if I were on the jury. Am I wrong? I really don’t know. I’m glad this is a safe place that I feel comfortable enough sharing and having a civil discussion. Thanks!

Hey!!!!!!! Remember when you said you didn't know how to put what you were trying to say into words? LOL You did a great job explaining how you are feeling.

I think you have put into words what the defense said throughout the trial. There are many things in your post that I have questioned along the way, but I don't have the experience of trying to restrain someone, so I appreciate a view from that perspective.

I also question how the officers were supposed to know what that kick meant... did Chauvin actually hear Lane say he can't find a pulse? I didn't even realize it was Chauvin that said "huh?" after he said that... but I'm still not even 100% sure that is what Lane even said because those video's were soooo hard to hear.

I think you will find when you hear Nelson's closing... I think he will touch on all the things you have... and will more than likely add in the fentanyl/meth mix, cardiac disease, and the fact that even the off duty fire fighter couldn't believe that medics took as long as they did.
 
I agree. I do think the officers behaved according to procedure up to that time. I don’t really think they exerted unnecessary force in try to get GF into the vehicle. He WAS a very large man and was actively resisting. I believe they tried placating him... offering to roll down window, and turning up the AC.
I just went back to view officer Lanes body cam video to refresh my memory. GF was extremely agitated... he claimed he was going to die, brought up Covid, multiple times said he couldn’t breathe, said he wanted to go to the ground. For all of these reasons, there is reasonable doubt as to the murder charges, IMO.
BUT, the fact that he was not moved into the recovery position when he stopped resisting and aid was not rendered is a slam dunk for the 2nd degree manslaughter charge. JMO
When he said he wanted to go on the ground I don't think he meant facedown with his neck and back being kneeled on for nine minutes. That he said he couldn't breathe, was claustrophobic, had just had covid, had anxiety, and was going to die, were all signs that a reasonable person should have recognized as being in medical distress. They had a responsibility to ensure the safety of the suspect throughout the arrest. Chauvin in particular acted with a careless disregard for human life, but the other officers did nothing to stop him. Imo
 
Thoughts on the defense not calling the last witness/expert we were all expecting to testify today?
I was expecting it to be a medical witness. It could be that Fowler covered it yesterday and it was enough. Maybe it was something they thought would need to be reinforced by another medical professional, but the State didn't refute or cross or maybe wasn't effective on cross. Fowler held up pretty good on cross and came off very confident. Sometimes less is more in these cases.
 
Absolutely not. The case should be decided on facts and charged according to the instructions given to the jurors.
Would be a dangerous precedent to set. It is up to the city to ensure citizens behave appropriately , not the jury.

IMHO, AG Barr should have let DC accept the plea deal for 3rd degree murder.

I could not agree with you more- regarding everything you said especially that Barr should have accepted that plea deal for 3rd degree murder. It is beyond me why he didn't accept it---To the best of my knowledge, not many police officers admit their
guilt, ready to accept punishment. Giant error.
 
When he said he wanted to go on the ground I don't think he meant facedown with his neck and back being kneeled on for nine minutes. That he said he couldn't breathe, was claustrophobic, had just had covid, had anxiety, and was going to die, were all signs that a reasonable person should have recognized as being in medical distress. They had a responsibility to ensure the safety of the suspect throughout the arrest. Chauvin in particular acted with a careless disregard for human life, but the other officers did nothing to stop him. Imo

Love your post!!!!!
 
Very true. For me, it was the 2013 murder of Tim Bosma (local to me). Harrowing case. I never thought such evil could exist.
ohhhh I knew I recognized your name, couldn't figure out which forum we both could have been posting on! That one turned out way more evil than we all first thought :(

Happy you have stuck around :) It's usually just one case that sucks us in... then another.. and another... then our families think we are crazy... then you have to ask your best friend to destroy your computer if something ever happens to your husband :D
 
I could not agree with you more- regarding everything you said especially that Barr should have accepted that plea deal for 3rd degree murder. It is beyond me why he didn't accept it---To the best of my knowledge, not many police officers admit their
guilt, ready to accept punishment. Giant error.
If memory serves, Barr claimed it would not, in his belief, appease the masses. So, basically, he pandered.
 
I don’t think DC doesn’t feel guilt. I also don’t think he agreed to plea because of the charge specifically, rather the 10 year sentence that was to go with it. I’m sure he’s expecting to get the maximum sentence no matter the charge. I don’t blame him.
 
If memory serves, Barr claimed it would not, in his belief, appease the masses. So, basically, he pandered.

A combination of three reasons were given for Barr's declining of the offer.

The deal was contingent on the federal government’s approval because Mr. Chauvin, who had asked to serve his time in a federal prison, wanted assurance he would not face federal civil rights charges.

Mr. Barr worried that a plea deal, so early in the process and before a full investigation had concluded, would be perceived as too lenient by the growing number of protesters across America.

Mr. Barr wanted to allow state officials, who were about to take over the case from the county prosecutor who has had tense relations with Minneapolis’s Black community, to make their own decisions about how to proceed.

Why William Barr Rejected a Plea Deal in the George Floyd Killing
 
When he said he wanted to go on the ground I don't think he meant facedown with his neck and back being kneeled on for nine minutes. That he said he couldn't breathe, was claustrophobic, had just had covid, had anxiety, and was going to die, were all signs that a reasonable person should have recognized as being in medical distress. They had a responsibility to ensure the safety of the suspect throughout the arrest. Chauvin in particular acted with a careless disregard for human life, but the other officers did nothing to stop him. Imo
Possibly.
However, I have read numerous accounts by both LE and attorneys, claiming that people being arrested, especially prior felons, often behave in a very agitated manner, claiming all sorts of possible ailments or discomforts in an attempt to distract. Not saying that’s the case here, but could explain why the officers acted the way they did.
 
Hey!!!!!!! Remember when you said you didn't know how to put what you were trying to say into words? LOL You did a great job explaining how you are feeling.

I think you have put into words what the defense said throughout the trial. There are many things in your post that I have questioned along the way, but I don't have the experience of trying to restrain someone, so I appreciate a view from that perspective.

I also question how the officers were supposed to know what that kick meant... did Chauvin actually hear Lane say he can't find a pulse? I didn't even realize it was Chauvin that said "huh?" after he said that... but I'm still not even 100% sure that is what Lane even said because those video's were soooo hard to hear.

I think you will find when you hear Nelson's closing... I think he will touch on all the things you have... and will more than likely add in the fentanyl/meth mix, cardiac disease, and the fact that even the off duty fire fighter couldn't believe that medics took as long as they did.
I don't think there is any way Chauvin did not hear the other officer say he was passed out and was not breathing. If you are not breathing you do not have a pulse. If we can tell from the video the moment Floyd stopped breathing, then Chauvin surely would have noticed himself since he was looking down at him and had his hand on his wrist the whole time. It was three minutes before he got off his neck after Floyd stopped breathing. Even if he did not hear the officers, he surely must have heard the firefighter and Williams, who repeatedly said "he's not responsive right now," "he's not breathing," "check his pulse," etc.

The firefighter identified herself as being a first responder almost as soon as she got there. She asked multiple times if they checked his pulse and inquired if he had a pulse. Yet Chauvin just continued to readjust his knee, applying more pressure, staring at the bystanders and saying nothing. There is no doubt that he knew. Imo
 
I have faith that this jury will do the right thing.Nobody can ever convince me that a knee on his neck for nine minutes in any way is justified.

I am concerned that the high social issues, emotional nature of the situation may cause the jury to actually go with a higher charge than what Chauvin actually did.

Well, it gives Chauvin his appeal issues. Or conversely, could there be a "sleeper" hold out to acquit Chauvin and go with mistrial?

You never know.
 
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