George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #5

[Arishia]

Is there anyone else here who isn't interested in the race component of this case, but is interested in the legal issues, like me?

 

[kaRN]

Who can he sue?

Nobody. He's raking the money in on all his paypal accounts, his fathers book on the case released yesterday IIRC. Poor GZ can afford a new suit everyday and he hasn't lost weight. :twocents:

 

[legalmania]

I don't know if it can be considered a racial slur considering its origination. But it is offensive in the way it is being used today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_(pejorative)

The parents this morning through a representative asked for this case not to become about race. I think the parents have a lot of class and have been pretty strong throughout this case. Although I heard the father did lose it at one point and either hit or threatened to hit a GZ supporter.

 

[Jane Jetson]

Of course, each of you Sleuthers has to decide for yourself if GZ is believeable. To me, after listening to this video, and the previous one, I think he is.

I believe that GZ was following the directions of the police dispatcher to "get to somewhere where he could see [Trayvon]." He walked to where TM was last seen, lost track of him, and decided to proceed a little further down the sidewalk and get an address where he could meet police.

GZ then changed his mind, told the police he'd meet them at his truck, and turned around on the sidewalk to walk back to his vehicle. Trayvon then confronted him, punched him, and proceeded to beat him until George thought GZ's head was going to explode, and he thought he might lose consciousness.

Then, George's jacket rode up, and he thought Trayvon saw his weapon. Trayvon said "You're going to die tonight, mf." GZ felt TM was reaching for the gun, and, basically, George shot him at that point.

Trayvon supposedly then sat up, said "You got me," and George thought TM was giving up. He did not realize he had been mortally wounded. Thinking his life was still in danger, GZ got out from under Trayvon, and turned him to face down, and even asked a person who came to call 911 to help him to restrain TM.

At the end of the video, one detective asks the other, "You got any questions?" The other detective says, "I don't have any." I guess the explanation made sense to him, and was self-explanatory and complete.

“George Zimmerman Reenactment Of Trayvon Martin Shooting (Part 2)”

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KxmO9hXHC_o&feature=fvwp[/URL]

A couple more notes:

At the 1:58 mark, George relates that he told the dispatcher that Trayvon was gone.

3:00 - Trayvon yells at George, while walking towards him "You got a problem?" GZ went to grab his cell phone, but it wasn't in that pocket. TM said "You got a problem now," and that was the point he first punched GZ in the face.

Now, you might say that George going for his cell phone could have been construed as going for a gun. But Trayvon had previously disappeared from GZ's sight - he did not have to come back and confront him, in any way, shape, or form.

3:51 - GZ says he doesn't know if he fell down or was pushed. This speaks to his honesty, imo. He said he then started screaming for help.

4:17 - George: "I tried to get up and he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down." 4:39 - "He just kept slamming and slamming."

4:46 - GZ: "He put his hand on my nose and his other hand on my mouth and said 'Shut the &#@* up."

:twocents:

 

[iluvmua]

I can't wait until MOM or West get to cross examine Tracy, Sybrina and Mr. Crump.

JMO

 

[missmazzy]

I love BS' commentary. He thinks John was a better witness for the state, because he said that it looked like the person on the bottom could have gotten up which wipes out the self-defense angle. He thinks the only way the defense can overcome this is by having GZ testify. Don't have a link, so JMO.

BTW-- when are the videos of GZs interviews with LE gonna come in?

I am unfamiliar with BS's history, but watched him today. If he were any more in favor of the state, he would be up there trying the case (IMO).

If GZ was pinned to the ground getting his head bashed in, how does BS think he could get away? Did BS think he wasn't injured enough? How much is enough? Busted nose...check. Bashed in head...check. Maybe if his brain was leaking out of his ears, BS would think it was self defense?

Sorry to get annoyed, the glee BS showed while revealing what he thought was a bombshell just rubbed me the wrong way.

I am still waiting for the ME to testify.

 

[gxm]

The testimony from the last witness does not match the injuries on Trayvon Martin. Period. There is NO WAY you beat someone "MMA Style" and you have ZERO wounds on your hands, especially your dominate hand, especially IF Trayvon was on top like this witness said.

I've wondered if the reason TM didn't have any bruising on his hands is because he died shortly thereafter and with much blood loss. When I bruise, it takes a while for it to "bloom." I'm guessing that's a question for a medical specialist. Perhaps it will be asked during trial and we'll get an answer.

 

[Morag]

In the beginning, there was talk of GZ claiming he was 'standing his ground', then it was decided not to claim that. At that time, many legal talkers were suggesting that TM was the one standing his ground. So to say that he had no right to punch a guy who was following him in the dark---

Also, 'cause I truly don't know, if two guys are having a fight in the alley behind a bar, and one of them is getting the worst of it, does that guy have the right to draw a gun and shoot the other one? Seems like if it were legal, it would happen all the time.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

"murdered"?

Politically bypassing the Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey has charged GZ with Second Degree Murder.

The crime of Second Degree Murder (in Florida) occurs when a person commits either:

• Murder with a Depraved Mind or
• Accomplice Felony Murder

Murder with a Depraved Mind
Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

Accomplice Felony Murder
Accomplice Felony Second Degree Murder occurs when you are an accomplice to a person who kills another human being while engaged in the commission, or attempted commission, of the following statutorily enumerated felonies, regardless of whether they intended the death:

• Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
• Aggravated child abuse,
• Aggravated stalking,
• Aircraft piracy,
• Arson,
• Burglary
• Carjacking,
• Distribution of Controlled Substances
• Escape,
• Home-invasion robbery,
• Kidnapping,
• Murder of another human being,
• Resisting Officer with Violence,
• Robbery,
• Sexual battery,
• Terrorism,
• Trafficking in Controlled Substances, or
• Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.

The State has not alleged Accomplice Felony Murder.

And it cannot prove Murder with a Depraved Mind.

So far, the State seems to be proving a GSW inflicted in order to halt a beating/pummeling.

If the jury gets it, justice will prevail.

Thank you. There have been a lot of terms used incorrectly here. Murder, stalking, disobeying an order from LE, none of which happened according to the evidence. It helps keep the hyperbole going though.

 

[m00c0w]

How long should one flee from an aggressor before it's okay to "stand your ground." And if while you are standing your ground you end up being shot and killed, what is the legal term for that? Curious minds want to know.

It depends on the circumstances. If the reasonable person standard is met that there is peril of death or fear of great bodily harm, one could stand their ground then and there.

However, if it was just fear that "Crap, this man's not up to any good, and I don't know what his intentions are", the code is specific that it needs to be an imminent threat. Via case law, it's demonstrated (and why the SYG laws were enacted), that when you have the chance or ability to retreat, the threat is not imminent. You can get away from it.

He would have had to retreat until he could retreat no more - until the circumstances changed and he was now in reasonable fear of his life of great bodily harm (which generally requires an tangible threat, imo) or until Zimmerman prevented him from retreating by grabbing him or some other such action.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[gxm]

I am unfamiliar with BS's history, but watched him today. If he were any more in favor of the state, he would be up there trying the case (IMO).

If GZ was pinned to the ground getting his head bashed in, how does BS think he could get away? Did BS think he wasn't injured enough? How much is enough? Busted nose...check. Bashed in head...check. Maybe if his brain was leaking out of his ears, BS would think it was self defense?

Sorry to get annoyed, the glee BS showed while revealing what he thought was a bombshell just rubbed me the wrong way.

I am still waiting for the ME to testify.

I get the felling he really, really, really wants GZ to testify and will be disappointed if he doesn't..

 

[Truth Detector]

You have one guy on the phone saying he was being followed by a creepy #$%$%... and the other guy on the phone saying he was FOLLOWING a F#&^$& ... One has a bag of Skittles... the other has a loaded gun. Is there evidence I missed that TM approached GZ?

Visual evidence:

http://.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/gz-original-injuries.jpg?w=640&h=320
Victim of Assault​

 

[legalmania]

Yet he kept his distance in all the other 9-11 calls.

Yet GZ in the 911 calls said Trayvon was on something and up to no good (not verbatim). Trayvon was able to see GZ was white. IMO they had to be sorta close to each other to come to that conclusion.

 

[katiewonders]

The best protection of all? Get your butt back into your car.

Yes! You know, though, you're not really safe there is someone suspicious has noticed you watching him/her. Yeah, I'd say get back into your house and have the cops meet you there. MOO

 

[AZWatcher]

Visual evidence:

http://.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/gz-original-injuries.jpg?w=640&h=320
Victim of Assault​

This is evidence of a struggle. Inconclusive IMO of who initiated contact.

 

[cityslick]

In the beginning, there was talk of GZ claiming he was 'standing his ground', then it was decided not to claim that. At that time, many legal talkers were suggesting that TM was the one standing his ground. So to say that he had no right to punch a guy who was following him in the dark---

Also, 'cause I truly don't know, if two guys are having a fight in the alley behind a bar, and one of them is getting the worst of it, does that guy have the right to draw a gun and shoot the other one? Seems like if it were legal, it would happen all the time.

Depends who started the fight.

 

[iluvmua]

I can't disagree with you more, IMO. Their 17 year old son is dead and the investigation was so poor the police didn't call the person he was clearly talking to on his cell phone moments before being shot?!? Should these parents have walked up to GZ, shook his hand and said "Thanks for killing my unarmed son. I'm sorry he caused you injuries so severe you required not one, but two whole bandaids?" :stormingmad:

And for that matter, do you feel CA should be able to sue everyone involved in her case. After all, she was found not guilty?

How would they be able to sue him if it turns out that he was acting in self defense?

And I totally believe he was

JMO

 

[ncgramma]

You can if that person lays a hand on you first! RJ says GZ did almost immediately after answering back TM's question, "why are you following me, for?. After that no one but GZ now knows if he grabbed TM first. TM can't tell us and apparently no live witness can either. So it comes down to whether you believe GZ grabbed at TM.

Please don't forget where TM's phone ended up. Right next to his body! So, JG must have something wrong. His phone went dead, right after RJ lost the ability to hear TM clearly. And, he was shot dead within seconds of her call being dropped. That is indisputable.

Seems to me it isn’t about who started a shoving match, contrary to what the prosecution might want us to believe.

It's about who first escalated to deadly force OR SERIOUS BODILY INJURY.
Which is why Good's testimony was more helpful to the defense than the prosecution.

One may argue why Good was called as a prosecution witness. To reason that out, all you have to do is decide how it would have looked if Good had been called by the defense instead. At least this way the prosecution could have some limited control of how Good's testimony would be introduced and perhaps garner a few points for appearing "fair and aboveboard."

Those are my thoughts anyway.

 

[m00c0w]

In the beginning, there was talk of GZ claiming he was 'standing his ground', then it was decided not to claim that. At that time, many legal talkers were suggesting that TM was the one standing his ground. So to say that he had no right to punch a guy who was following him in the dark---

Also, 'cause I truly don't know, if two guys are having a fight in the alley behind a bar, and one of them is getting the worst of it, does that guy have the right to draw a gun and shoot the other one? Seems like if it were legal, it would happen all the time.

It is believed they did not elect to use SYG because it would require a hearing before the trial. Given what we've seen of the judge so far, I can totally agree with their decision. She would have most likely scheduled a trial and the prosecutor would now have the defense's strategy. All the cards would be on the table at that point.

In terms of the bar fight, it would depend on who started it and how it escalated. In self-defense, you're only really allowed to use proportional force. There's a point when if that line is crossed, deadly force is permissible.

For instance, if you just walk up and hit someone and they hit you back, you may not shoot them.

If someone walks up and hits you, you may not shoot them.

If someone walks up and hits you, and you fall down and they start kicking your head with steel-toed boots... You might have cause to say you were in reasonable fear of your life or great bodily harm and shoot them.

The converse is also true. If someone picks a fight, but then the other person escalates it to extremely violent behavior whereby the initiator is truly in fear of his life, it may be acceptable... However, I think the defendant would be held to a much higher standard in this case due to him having started the fight.

 

[Jhpuffy]

How would they be able to sue him if it turns out that he was acting in self defense?

And I totally believe he was

JMO

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not saying the parents should be able to sue GZ necessarily, I'm saying GZ shouldn't be able to sue them. They wanted answers regarding their son's death and the police didn't investigate to their full potential. Of course they took this public. IMO