Germanwings Airbus crash 24 March #1

[Perodicticus potto]

Wonder if the co-pilot was Jewish, or a self-hating German?

... What?

 

[ElleElle]

I would veto that one. I want somebody on board if something mechanical fails. I think that would be a hard sell to the Public. IMO

They pretty much fly on auto-pilot anyways.

 

[Bravo]

Question asked prior was answered just now. Analyzed data from the transponder indicated he did manually reset 36,000 to 100 ft. (Autopilot) So it seems this information does come from the transponder Prairie.

 

[Bravo]

They pretty much fly on auto-pilot anyways.

I know but I still want somebody there

 

[Lola68]

[h=2]Crew members also know the code to open the cockpit, but don't have training to fly plane, Lufthansa CEO says[/h]

According to reports re the blackbox recorder, the captain started pounding on the door when he didn't get a response from the cockpit, and was then heard trying to break down the door. Seems v unlikely to me that no one except the captain - neither the crew nor passengers seated at the front of the plane - were aware that anything was wrong until the plane was about to crash.

I think most people knew something was seriously wrong within minutes of the plane starting to descend based on the captain's reactions, but didn't realise they were actually going to crash until the last minute, when they started screaming. The prosecutor is perhaps trying to minimise the relatives' anguish, but harsh as it is, I think the screams indicate a culmination of rising panic - from knowing something wasn't right to gradually realising they were going to crash. 8 minutes is a long time. IMO if you only realised at the last minute you're going to crash, I don't think you'd be able to process the situation sufficiently to have time to scream.

Also - even if the captain was initially discreet, he was clearly desperate towards the end, plus the crew would recognise immediately if the plane started descending when it should be cruising - they fly these routes all the time and know the drill off by heart. Why didn't they react/support the captain?

 

[Hatfield]

Or just use the keypad on the door and 'call in' for an override code for it. But both scenarios would still leave open the possibility for a bad guy to threaten a hostage to communicate lies to ATC in order to get the code...

Except with the Phone call to a real person, that person would first try to contact the cockpit pilot and if the pilot either did not answer OR said the wrong things like a terrorist would, then the person would know its OK to let them have the override code.

 

[SouthAussie]

I would veto that one. I want somebody on board if something mechanical fails. I think that would be a hard sell to the Public. IMO

I agree.

I think that it is bad enough that some systems can override the pilot’s manual flying, because the plane 'knows better'. This has been an issue in other plane disasters. The plane cannot see the conditions it is flying into and cannot anticipate every move that a pilot may have to suddenly make.

 

[Bravo]

To sit there those 8 minutes. So calm. Hearing the knocking escalating to pounding and attempts to break the door down. Hearing the panic and screams yet still calm. Evil just pure Evil!!!!!

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Psychological testing is very subjective. What will the criteria be to ground a pilot?

Thank you. This prompted me to look for a possible answer. I have to wonder if he shared with Lufthansa that he previously suffered from some sort of depression.

*** Please see link as more links are within the listed info. ***

http://flightphysical.com/Exam-Guide/Psych/Psychiatric-47.htm


Psychiatric Issues - FAA Medical Exam
Aeromedical Dispositions

Aerospace Medical Dispositions
Item 47. Psychiatric Conditions - Psychiatric Conditions Table of Medical Dispositions
FAA announces on April 2, 2010 that certain antidepressants will be considered for pilot flight waiver (special issuance). Read more about FAA policy and 6 month amnesty period...

The following is a table that lists the most common Mental Health conditions of aeromedical significance, and course of action that should be taken by the AME as defined by the protocol and disposition in the table below. Medical certificates must not be issued to an applicant with medical conditions that require deferral, or for any condition not listed that may result in sudden or subtle incapacitation without consulting the FAA AMCD or Regional Flight Surgeon. Medical documentation must be submitted for any condition in order to support an issuance of an airman medical certificate.

The FAA realizes that mental healh issues are often important safety considerations. The aeromedical exam will attempt to screen for psychiatric problems related to a compromise of judgment and emotional control or to diminished mental capacity with loss of behavioral control. These are not the same as concerns for emotional health in everyday life. The distinction can be subtle and diagnosis is imperfect. The final verdict often relies on a "skillful judgment call." Some problems may have only a slight impact on an individual's overall capacities and the quality of life but may nevertheless have a great impact on safety. Conversely, many emotional problems that are of therapeutic and clinical concern have no impact on safety.

The FAA has concluded that certain psychiatric conditions are such that their presence or a past history of their presence is sufficient to suggest a significant potential threat to safety. It is, therefore, incumbent upon the AMEto be aware of any indications of these conditions currently, or in the past, and to deny or defer issuance of the medical certificate to an applicant who has a history of these conditions. An applicant who has a current diagnosis or history of these conditions may request the FAA to grant an Authorizationunder the special issuance section of part 67 (14 CFR 67.401) and, based upon individual considerations, the FAA AMCD or Regional Flight Surgeonmay grant such a waiver.

Subsections of Mental Health Problems:

Personality Disorder
Psychosis
Bipolar Disorder
Anxiety Problems
Substance Dependence
Substance Abuse
Note: Numbers correspond to the required entry in the AME portion of the FAA Form 8500-8

Note: Numbers correspond to the required entry in the A.M.E. portion of the FAA Form 8500-8

 

[Bravo]

I agree.

I think that it is bad enough that some systems can override the pilot’s manual flying, because the plane 'knows better'. This has been an issue in other plane disasters. The plane cannot see the conditions it is flying into and cannot anticipate every move that a pilot may have to suddenly make.

Good to see you! Here we are once again. Sadly. It sure has been an issue in other disasters.

 

[Lola68]

Some of the information coming out makes this even more unfathomable.

From all accounts a well balanced, pleasant young man with a sense of humour and plans to marry - whatever went wrong had to be profound, but no one seems to have been able to detect it. Chilling.

Some sort of panic attack inducing mental paralysis? So he couldn't respond but was still conscious (i.e. remained breathing steadily throughout). I actually think this is a highly unlikely scenario given that programming the descent and overriding cockpit entry were both done manually, just throwing out some alternative options. It seems premature to condemn him outright before we have all the information - but the evidence (at least from the prosecutor's point of view) appears to be overwhelmingly against him.

 

[bettybaby00]

Question, not sure if discussed.

They keep referring to his "650" hours of flying time, and that here in the US that's considered very inexperienced. they also mention that pilots/crew don't necessarily know each other before any given flight. Would the pilot have been informed of his co-piolet's "lack of experience?" I'm guessing no. Perhaps if this pilot knew that info he might not have so readily left him alone in the cockpit? Not to suggest that he would think they guy was capable of what eventually transpired, but more cautious in the sense of "I shouldn't leave this guy in 'charge' given his lack of experience."

Idk if that even makes sense!

 

[Hatfield]

Good to see you! Here we are once again. Sadly. It sure has been an issue in other disasters.

I know. Isnt it sad we have had so many plane disasters recently.

I follow them closely in the news and the big disasters are definitely becoming more frequent these past few years.

 

[Bravo]

I know. Isnt it sad we have had so many plane disasters recently.

I follow them closely in the news and the big disasters are definitely becoming more frequent these past few years.

Very sad. So many familiar names here. Hi all. Wish we weren't here but.........

 

[Hatfield]

Very sad. So many familiar names here. Hi all. Wish we weren't here but.........

I recognized Y'all too from the Air Asia disaster.

Im glad to see everyone again here but on such a sad occasion again. Lots of mixed emotions.

Emirates is helpful again here like last time too. And Cariis of course and many others.

THANKS EVERYONE + HELLO

 

[JanetElaine]

Except with the Phone call to a real person, that person would first try to contact the cockpit pilot and if the pilot either did not answer OR said the wrong things like a terrorist would, then the person would know its OK to let them have the override code.

That's actually what I was saying too, call in to a real person.

 

[Zuri]

Pure speculation:

I have an almost 27 yo son, who is not a pilot btw. Having been around his friends, of the same age + or -, a failed relationship, discovery of their GF cheating with another person, seems to make these young men lose all sensibilities. I wonder if his fiancée brokenoff their relationship, a short time ago, with no chance of reconciliation.

I only speculate this due to his age, if combined with depression, something like this made him snap. The deliberate actions on his part just seem like a big "FU". IMO and I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[Bravo]

Question, not sure if discussed.

They keep referring to his "650" hours of flying time, and that here in the US that's considered very inexperienced. they also mention that pilots/crew don't necessarily know each other before any given flight. Would the pilot have been informed of his co-piolet's "lack of experience?" I'm guessing no. Perhaps if this pilot knew that info he might not have so readily left him alone in the cockpit? Not to suggest that he would think they guy was capable of what eventually transpired, but more cautious in the sense of "I shouldn't leave this guy in 'charge' given his lack of experience."

Idk if that even makes sense!

Just a guess but IMO cruising altitude on Auto is the safest part of a flight. Co-Pilot had all his training and gaining his experience. Pilot was only steps away. Yep you make sense.

 

[Bravo]

I recognized Y'all too from the Air Asia disaster.

Im glad to see everyone again here but on such a sad occasion again. Lots of mixed emotions.

Emirates is helpful again here like last time too. And Cariis of course and many others.

THANKS EVERYONE + HELLO

Yes so many helpful for sure. Learning curve for me. Now if I can just remember some of it LOL

 

[CARIIS]

The media does this after every major event. Get hysterical, try to come up with a perfect fix in an flawed world. The reality here is it is like everything else in society, risk vs ?

THe best simple answer is what is happening, flight attnedent in when someone out. THe odds, like the lotto are it is probably far smarter to try to keep bad people out in this climate, than to try to come up with a two way solution.

THe reality here is everyone will adopt US policy, its free, easy to implement. ANother reality here is nothing is going to change as far as systems go. There are thousands upon thousands of these kind of set ups on aircraft of all types making soaring above the earth.

Noone is gonna revise anything tecnically solely cause of the almighty buck

Life entails risk so be it.

If anything the highest risk now for a peroid of time is a copy cat flight crew member that is suffering with mental illiness.

Unless we get more agenda stuff from his computer, we are going to have to accept the current system - we cant have it both ways

This is the same thing as gun control after shooting - all cranked up, nothing changes, nor is it going to , selling guns makes to much money.

cost vs benefits outweighs anything and everything everywhere in any context about anything...................just the way it rolls, IMO

It is called " tombstone thinking" in aviation, It is basically very simple. If I can afford to have one accident that costs me 150 million total, and the cost to try to eradicate it will cost 400 million I do nothing until the cost to ignore hits 400 millions, or it is cheaper to fix it than to pay for it afterwards.


ombstone mentality is an informal aviation air safety term that suggests design defects are sometimes ignored until people have died because of them. Strictly speaking, tombstone mentality decisions are examples where there is no incentive for an economic actor to be a 'first mover' and promote safety. Sometimes this is a result of market pressures (nobody wants to pay for extra safety, despite their talk), or, it may be a result of legal disincentives such as product liability lawsuits (if a design change is made that is not government approved and somebody is injured, even if the design change was not the reason for the injury, the company may be liable).

Been that way for decades and will not change!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_mentality

Big Pharm does it daily. THey caluclate how a new RX could be sold, how much profit, deduct the lawsuits from killing people and if at the end of the equation they make and market the drug, wait to get causght, stall anything to stop selling it while profits rack up, make bucks, and then take it off the market. Rinse repeat!