Germany/Portugal - Christian Brueckner, 27 @ time of 1st crime (2004), charged with sexual assault crimes, Praia de Rocha, Portugal. #4

[Denis R Tandib]

While what you posted is completely correct in terms of Codified systems vs Common law systems, as far as this case goes the process/result is likely to be much the same as a judge alone trial in the UK (i.e.one without a jury).

This is a case which will turn on an assessment of the evidence. It's not going to end up with the wrong result merely because of the different nature of german criminal trials.

For instance, if this case were held in the UK, there is also a very good chance the search warrant evidence would be tossed out. In the UK, the profiler probably would not have been allowed to even testify IMO.

Yeah, my only point is that crimes in Germany have written rules that inform the decisions of judges. If the evidence proves a crime has been committed against the corresponding rules for that specific crime, the judge must find the accused guilty.

I didn’t intend for it to be anything other than a passing comment until It was mocked as opinion by another poster.

 

[mrjitty]

Yeah, my only point is that crimes in Germany have written rules that inform the decisions of judges. If the evidence proves a crime has been committed against the corresponding rules for that specific crime, the judge must find the accused guilty.

I didn’t intend for it to be anything other than a passing comment until It was mocked as opinion by another poster.

Completely agree - just noting that in practice its unlikely to make any odds.

For instance in the UK there are statutory rules about admissibility of evidence and warrants, and a huge amount of common law (i.e authoritative case law0. So a judge is likely to refer to decided cases in interpreting the present facts to see where the line should be drawn.

In germany it is more codified and case law is only secondary law. But in the end the rules are much the same.

IMO the main difference is Germany is far more bureaucratic than countries like the UK or US. But the case will come down to the evidence at the end of the day.

 

[frank-cole]

To which search warrant do you refer?
I can't think of any one of the five indictments where a search warrant was part of the process.
What am I missing?

It’s unfortunate if evidence is disregarded for whatever reason - because it stops the full truth from being judged & it is detrimental to the victims. It seems that, although very unfortunate, the defence have been very successful in that regard. To me it’s akin to a mob boss/big time drug dealer getting a not guilty because the likes of FF & co found a way to have evidence tossed out. The argument cannot be made for a factually innocent CB. However he may well end up legally innocent. Kaylee Anthony type alarm bells going - people often talk of innocent people being wrongly convicted, unfortunately if this happens, it’ll be the other way around.

 

[Davieson]

It’s unfortunate if evidence is disregarded for whatever reason - because it stops the full truth from being judged & it is detrimental to the victims. It seems that, although very unfortunate, the defence have been very successful in that regard. To me it’s akin to a mob boss/big time drug dealer getting a not guilty because the likes of FF & co found a way to have evidence tossed out. The argument cannot be made for a factually innocent CB. However he may well end up legally innocent. Kaylee Anthony type alarm bells going - people often talk of innocent people being wrongly convicted, unfortunately if this happens, it’ll be the other way around.

"The argument cannot be made for a factually innocent CB."
It doesn't need to be. The law needs to prove guilt.

 

[frank-cole]

"The argument cannot be made for a factually innocent CB."
It doesn't need to be. The law needs to prove guilt.

Thanks & true - not what I was getting at though - I wasn’t too clear. I don’t consider Casey Anthony factually innocent - therefore I don’t agree with people who suggest she is factually innocent because she wasn’t convicted.Same applies to CB.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

"The argument cannot be made for a factually innocent CB."
It doesn't need to be. The law needs to prove guilt.

It’s hard to understand how some people can have so much faith in the prosecutor and at the same time such little faith in the judge who likely has more experience in the German legal profession that the prosecutors. Even though the verdict has not been given some posters are assuming CB will be found innocent and are already preparing contingency arguments. It really is absurd.

 

[Dave55]

It’s hard to understand how some people can have so much faith in the prosecutor and at the same time such little faith in the judge who likely has more experience in the German legal profession that the prosecutors. Even though the verdict has not been given some posters are assuming CB will be found innocent and are already preparing contingency arguments. It really is absurd.

He wouldnt be found innocent just not guilty...there's a massive difference

 

[mrjitty]

It’s hard to understand how some people can have so much faith in the prosecutor and at the same time such little faith in the judge who likely has more experience in the German legal profession that the prosecutors. Even though the verdict has not been given some posters are assuming CB will be found innocent and are already preparing contingency arguments. It really is absurd.

At the risk of being boring, it is drummed in at law school that you cannot have an opinion on a judgement you have not read.

wait for the decisions and the detailed reasoning. especially when none of us have heard the witnesses let alone read the detailed exhibits.

 

[Davieson]

He wouldnt be found innocent just not guilty...there's a massive difference

Nobody is found innocent in a court of law. The options are guilty or not guilty - except in Scotland, where there is also not proven.

 

[frank-cole]

He wouldnt be found innocent just not guilty...there's a massive difference

It’s hard to understand how some people can have so much faith in the prosecutor and at the same time such little faith in the judge who likely has more experience in the German legal profession that the prosecutors. Even though the verdict has not been given some posters are assuming CB will be found innocent and are already preparing contingency arguments. It really is absurd.

Not particularly - I’ll accept the final conclusions to these cases & move on. We know that FF has put in many motions to challenge how evidence was collected. As somebody who is pro-victim, i think would be a big shame if evidence in their cases was blocked from being used. That said - I don’t think there’ll be any opportunity to effectively feign doubt in the MM case because theyll likely announce a summary of what they have when they announce charges.If the evidence is compelling & they make that public - we’ll all finally be on the same page (hmm). Doesn’t mean the admissibility can’t be challenged, though.

My opinion

 

[Davieson]

I thought admissibility of the box factory evidence had already been challenged and a decision is being awaited.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I thought admissibility of the box factory evidence had already been challenged and a decision is being awaited.

That’s my understanding too. The prosecutors did want to use it during this trial but the decision wasn’t given publicly.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Not particularly - I’ll accept the final conclusions to these cases & move on. We know that FF has put in many motions to challenge how evidence was collected. As somebody who is pro-victim, i think would be a big shame if evidence in their cases was blocked from being used. That said - I don’t think there’ll be any opportunity to effectively feign doubt in the MM case because theyll likely announce a summary of what they have when they announce charges.If the evidence is compelling & they make that public - we’ll all finally be on the same page (hmm). Doesn’t mean the admissibility can’t be challenged, though.

My opinion

Too many professional reputations on the line and not enough evidence for CB to be charged for anything to do with MM. I really hope it happens but I fear it’s a snowball’s chance in hell currently.

 

[Mex]

At the risk of being boring, it is drummed in at law school that you cannot have an opinion on a judgement you have not read.

wait for the decisions and the detailed reasoning. especially when none of us have heard the witnesses let alone read the detailed exhibits.

I doubt many of us have been to law school and I would venture the certainty that if so it most definitely was not a German one.

We are interested sleuths' who can only have an opinion based on information which is very thin on the ground by the very nature of the process.

The process in the trial against CB has been an extraordinary one which has prompted complaint from the guys who collected the evidence being used over a period of years, to make the complaint of bias against the judges.
With all due respect that is an opinion which should carry a great deal of weight and I think ultimately it will be listened to.

Part of that may be concern as you point out that the judges "have not heard witnesses" nor "read the detailed exhibits" (whatever that may be).

The judges most definitely have expressed opinion based on evidence they have not even listened to. Quite extraordinary!
My opinion

 

[Mex]

That’s my understanding too. The prosecutors did want to use it during this trial but the decision wasn’t given publicly.

I keep on missing bits of the process you raise.

For example can you give a cite for the prosecutors trying to introduce content and the resultant decision not put in the public domain. All one can find is the reverse when it was discovered that a defence witness was otherwise engaged.
It being said "His lawyers are fully on the attack."

• February 23, 2024: On the second day of the trial, the indictment is read out – this lasts 30 minutes. Christian B. does not speak, but his lawyer does: He casts massive doubts about the truthfulness of all important witness statements, and also announces an ex-BKA employee as a witness. She had reported on a conspiracy by the Federal Criminal Police Office against B. Braunschweig: Prozess gegen Christian B. – das ist bisher passiert

There certainly was something about a dog walking incident on CB's land accompanied by a smell of decomposition. Don't know if that may be the same one of a very disgruntled employee but in either instance, both were defence witnesses; unless you can say different

 

[RichardKimble]

I thought admissibility of the box factory evidence had already been challenged and a decision is being awaited.

According to a BZ article in June it was expected the court would agree to the defence in not including it.This was after hearing of the search without a warrant and a police womans boyfriend walking a dog on private property and the policewoman herself taking pictures without permission.

Maddie-Verdächtiger – Ermittler wollten Razzia fingieren

22. Prozesstag: Auf der Suche nach der vermissten Inga Gehricke geriet 2015 Christian B. in Verdacht. Die Polizei war offenkundig bereit, Gesetze zu übertreten. Das hat Folgen für die Beweisaufnahme im laufenden Prozess.

www.braunschweiger-zeitung.de

 

[Mex]

According to a BZ article in June it was expected the court would agree to the defence in not including it.This was after hearing of the search without a warrant and a police womans boyfriend walking a dog on private property and the policewoman herself taking pictures without permission.

Maddie-Verdächtiger – Ermittler wollten Razzia fingieren

22. Prozesstag: Auf der Suche nach der vermissten Inga Gehricke geriet 2015 Christian B. in Verdacht. Die Polizei war offenkundig bereit, Gesetze zu übertreten. Das hat Folgen für die Beweisaufnahme im laufenden Prozess.

www.braunschweiger-zeitung.de

Thank you for that.

Can you explain why there was any mention of anything in your post which is of relevance to any of the five indictments CB is currently facing.

It seems again we have a firm acknowledgement of disinterest in anything to do with the matter in hand while all real interest rests with for some in the MM case for which there isn't even an indictment as yet and the IG case mentioned in your link.

Presently on the table in the Braunschweig court are five serious sexual offences which some may think have been dealt with abominably at trial.
From the rubbishing of the forces of law and order to all witnesses for the prosecution while the judge and defence are in effect driving a coach and horses through their testimony to the introduction of irrelevant cases to the process.

CB is entitled to a fair trial. Those who are giving testimony about offences committed against them are also entitled to a fair trial.
Is that happening while the judges are distracted from the five present indictments which should really be enough for the concentration of any court to deal with without introducing phantom evidence from cases not indicted.

Neither IG nor MM have any place in the Braunschweig courtroom during this trial; why do they feature?
There is no denying that is what is happening, particularly in MM's case for which witnesses have been called.
Insulting to the process and insulting to the witnesses.
My opinion

 

[Davieson]

According to a BZ article in June it was expected the court would agree to the defence in not including it.This was after hearing of the search without a warrant and a police womans boyfriend walking a dog on private property and the policewoman herself taking pictures without permission.

Maddie-Verdächtiger – Ermittler wollten Razzia fingieren

22. Prozesstag: Auf der Suche nach der vermissten Inga Gehricke geriet 2015 Christian B. in Verdacht. Die Polizei war offenkundig bereit, Gesetze zu übertreten. Das hat Folgen für die Beweisaufnahme im laufenden Prozess.

www.braunschweiger-zeitung.de

If the reports are anything like correct, it suggests some very underhand police work

 

[RichardKimble]

If the reports are anything like correct, it suggests some very underhand police work

We can only go with which is reported.

 

[frank-cole]

Too many professional reputations on the line and not enough evidence for CB to be charged for anything to do with MM. I really hope it happens but I fear it’s a snowball’s chance in hell currently.

Interesting. I think stranger abduction was always the only plausible scenario. I don’t see a sensible hypothesis to the contrary.

I have no doubt that CB was solely responsible. I think there’ll be a few investigative-to-prosecutorial challenges. Whether they have enough, whether what they have is free of trivial (yet destructive) technicalities & whether the main evidence is absolute proof of death. You & I both know that even the most incriminating evidence won’t convince some people, though.