Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[truthsyrum]

There is little doubt that the girls in burlap were killed by the same person. That much anyone with a lick of common sense can agree upon. I find it hard to believe that extensive phone record and/or internet correspondence searches couldn't identify a common number or URL between the four of them. He had to contact them somehow. What lengths did the police actually go to in this regard?

 

[JGJM]

Couldn't agree more. That's why I thought of the heavy duty coveralls. I remember reading in a article or hearing on a news report that the officers were all scratched up because the brush is that thick & there are thorn bushes. I drove by there this summer because I wanted to see if I could get into oak beach just t get an understanding of Shannon's surroundings. When it's all grown in (which it had to be at the time of some of the murders ) then there's no way in hell someone walked in there and didn't get at least a few scratches.

I agree with you that he's a landscaper or some other type of laborer. I've seen profiles on him where it's says he's college educated and well off. I assume that's based on the fact her offered so much money to these girls. The key word though is "offered". I can offer you $1500 now. Doesn't mean I have it! It's possible he was a general laborer or even a union guy who made decent money and only had himself to support, therefore making it seem like he was wel off. He also could've had a nice car and had been living beyond his means.

Either way I agree, that if he worked in the construction trade, it wouldn't be that abnormal for him to have scratches. I also agree about the drug alcohol problems especially because it was reported by Melissa Barthelemy's boyfriend that the caller sounded as if he had been drinking.

Maybe he could have worn a thick surfing wetsuit which could have protected him from scratches.

 

[artlover]

And works from home or wears a suit for work.

 

[I_cant_always_sleep]

I'm glad that this thread is still viable. I'm not much of a websleuth but I've been following this story since it first emerged. You guys do a great job. I think the most important thing to focus on is the GB4 at this point. They share way to many similarities that the the rest simply don't share. I'm not saying it's impossible that one person switched their methods I just think that it is possible that more then one person in NYC would know about how easy it would be to dump bodies there. Clearly LE hasn't been concerned for the last 16 years or so. But the GB4 are obviously the work of one person and they are the most recent. Amber actually was murdered after the Shannon Gilbert incident. So it's fair to assume the discovery of his dumping ground probably spooked him. The other thing I want to try to clarify is that, from what I've read on a couple threads, most people don't really understand how prostitution works these days. I am a john from time to time. It isn't something I'm proud of but this story really hurts me. It hurts because these are just girls trying to make a living. They don't deserve this and LE should take their deaths seriously. They aren't dispensable. They have families that love them. I apologize for the rant. The reason I admitted to this was to tell you how easily someone could commit these murders. You simply have to go to backpage or craigslist scroll through the escorts. Call several of them (which I'm sure he did on the abduction days). Decide which one you felt the most comfortable with. Promise them enough money they will do whatever you want (leave on your own, no phone, no witness). Get them in your vehicle brandish a gun or subdue them somehow and that's it. Likely he was calm until he got them back to his house which is also crucial. You can't just do this kinda thing anywhere (apartment, hotel, vehicle is all too risky in my opinion. But as far as his type. The internet allows you to choose your type before you make the call. There are thousands of girls that are all his type to chose from. I think a lot of folks are looking into this way to hard. The thing that bothers me is the cell phone records. I never hear anything about this. I hear about cell towers but I'm sure that the GB4 cell phone records have a clue in them. How often he called or texted and the length of the calls seem important. But the idea that this killer needed to be sloppy in the beginning until he perfected his craft seems like something out of a crime drama. I feel like he could have easily pulled this off efficiently on the first try. Id Love to hear feed back.

 

[LouManChu]

Hi,
The burlap. Has anyone done a forensic analysis of the burlap? It would tell us where it was made, when it was made, who made it, what was in it and where it ended up. This will be where the LISK retrieved it. It also may have his DNA on it.

LMC

 

[No it's not]

The Gilgo-4 case in a nutshell:

 

[joe333]

It has been mentioned many times that the Gilgo 4 would have individually only gone with a "client" without taking their phones if it was someone they trusted. This leads me to believe that it was someone they had seen regularly, was someone in a position that they trusted; police officer, clergy, etc, or someone they had at the very minimum had extensive conversations with. Was wondering Peter what your theory on this is. I think it would be helpful if the fellow prostitutes they knew were asked under what circumstances would they go without their phone.

 

[rickyperez]

It has been mentioned many times that the Gilgo 4 would have individually only gone with a "client" without taking their phones if it was someone they trusted. This leads me to believe that it was someone they had seen regularly, was someone in a position that they trusted; police officer, clergy, etc, or someone they had at the very minimum had extensive conversations with. Was wondering Peter what your theory on this is. I think it would be helpful if the fellow prostitutes they knew were asked under what circumstances would they go without their phone.

I don't necessarily know if I agree with the theory that the women simply trusted this particular client (LISK) or even knew him from prior occasions. The women may have told others that they would only go out without taking their phones, only if they knew the client, but in the end, money talks. These women were all motivated by money; why isn't it possible that LISK simply stated to each girl that part of the deal was for the them to leave their phones at home in exchange for a large sum of money (I keep hearing $1500). Because it was such a large amount and because the women may have become complacent enough, the girls may have agreed; its a matter of risk vs. reward and for them, $1500 may have been enough reward to outweigh the risk.

I would imagine the police researched each girl's cell phone call history and would have looked into the last calls each girl received. Furthermore, if that particular number had called before (although LISK could have used different numbers), it would have made it easier (maybe) to figure out who LISK is. I guess we can all assume and of course it would make the most sense, since nothing ever came of the girl's call history, that LISK used one of those burner phones. Nevertheless, I just don't think LISK would have risked meeting with each girl multiple times prior to their murders; it seems that would have left LISK much more out in the open and vulnerable for someone to uncover his identity at a later date. Ultimately, I think LISK selects his women based on their demographic and physical characteristics, in particular young, petite women who work in the sex business because obviously, women working in the sex business can be lured in with money, and kills when he feels the moment is right and safe enough for him to do so and get away with it. I do wonder however if LISK has met up with women on backpage or some other escort site but did not kill them for whatever reason, leaving the possibility that other sex workers have encountered LISK and did not even know it.

 

[Natga]

Maybe Shannan's behavior/exposure to neighbors, the night she was last seen, threw a wrench into the "usual" method of killing?
Because she was seen running away, wouldn't it look better to have her death look more accidental? This way, her murder looks different than the gb4. And after all, the Shannan situation would have def blown the killers cover, if they had disposed of her the same as the gb4.

 

[jwilso]

Have you passed this on to the A&E documentarians?

 

[docrocker]

Mr Brandt,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I'm new to this forum. I'm a retired MD, but I was not a silver spoon child. I've been interested in investigative techniques & profiling for as long as I can recall. I often wished I had chosen forensic pathology as a specialty, but I have studied some.
My question to you, & one I posted in another forum, is one I'm sure you've been asked about before. I noted that each time the Gilgo Four were discussed on A&E's Killing Season, it was stated (and by you) that the four ladies were "wrapped carefully in burlap". This caught my attention, because the reporter shown on A&E held up a burlap sack & said they were "stuffed in a burlap sack like this". Her statement was strikingly different from every other comment made. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems they were carefully wrapped in burlap. This brings to mind two things to me: 1) My father was a furniture upholsterer. He was a brilliant artist even with furniture. But, burlap comes in "Bolts". They're large and EVERY upholsterer & Furniture Company purchases their burlap by Bolts or in these huge Rolls. 2) Secondly, it reminds me of something a murderer that has deeply entwined or twisted scripture in to his thinking. "Sack Cloth", which was actually a type of burlap is a religious inference, so I also wanted to ask if there were any ashes either near the bodies or buried with the bodies? Or, were the ladies burned or clothing burned?

I totally concur with your assessment of separate killers. It seems that the killer in the Gilgo Four case was a very Organized Killer. He is meticulous. So are upholsterers. (disorganized killers are not meticulous & they rip bodies & dismember, as you've mentioned). The bodies being "wrapped carefully" in burlap cries of meticulous work that an upholsterer would use in their work. Even the bodies being wrapped in burlap gives the impression of either someone wishing to toy with police by giving a clue- "stuffing cushions", or some other arrogant reason. They certainly are trophies. Upholsterers are required to measure fabric precisely, just like this killer laid out each of the 4 bodies exactly 500 yards apart. This was a precise measurement.

I realize that there are other reasons a killer might use burlap, but it's not a common item used in killings. Therefore, I thought of a laborer, like an upholsterer or other laborer who would have easy access to burlap, and/or someone who has twisted scripture in to his belief system and wrapped them in "sack cloth & ashes"...or it could be both?

I realize I'm new to this, but I hope that at least my observations might help to jog someone's memory to find the killer. I'm most interested in profiling killers. I'd be pleased to help find victim identities, but I'm most interested in finding the perpetrators.

Thank you so much for providing this forum to share insights.
docrocker

 

[ps149]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.. it is not unreasonable to think a fairly healthy man under forty can walk out a body under 150 pounds a few feet into thick brush and drop her there. There is absolutely no need for there to be two people to have accomplished this.

Yes a HEALTHY man. But not one with a missing leg, right?

 

[bessie]

Hello, rickyperez, Your post was moved to this thread.

Possible connection between GB4 and other murders

 

[PennyPie7]

Regarding the burlap... I see a lot of new people posting (hello!) ALL OVER THE THREADS, particularly about the burlap and running wild with theories and occupations and who knows what.

Burlap can be purchased in HUGE ROLLS, for business OR personal use, from both Home Depot and Loew's. I can go out and buy 10 giant rolls today, either in person or online, for a pretty fair price. It is not as uncommon as the general public seems to think. I looked into buying a large quantity to wrap my fruit trees, roses, and other plants for the winter. Easy to access. You don't need to be stalking a dumpster near a nursery or work in a profession that handles burlap to have quick access to it.

 

[Neptune]

Mr Brandt,
-- Quote snipped for space --
I noted that each time the Gilgo Four were discussed on A&E's Killing Season, it was stated (and by you) that the four ladies were "wrapped carefully in burlap". This caught my attention, because the reporter shown on A&E held up a burlap sack & said they were "stuffed in a burlap sack like this". Her statement was strikingly different from every other comment made.

In 2010 and 2011 when this case first broke, there were varying reports on how the burlap was used in the disposal of these women. Those descriptions included: the women were a) put in burlap sacks, b) wrapped in burlap, and c) covered in burlap – all different scenarios (see images below). To say “wrapped carefully in burlap” is editorializing information and this description may be entirely wrong – unless this person knows something the general public does not. There may have been nothing careful about the use of burlap – it may have been unfurled and quickly placed on the victim after disposal to conceal it, as burlap blends in with the surrounding vegetation and makes the body difficult to see from a low-flying plane. Or covering or shrouding the victim may have been an odd form of respect or remorse. Or, each victim may have been dealt with differently. What we do know is burlap must have been available to the LISK with each incident and that he was consistent in using it -- which means a calculated decision. Burlap also made the completion of each disposal more uniform – and I believe this aspect is very important to him.

Obviously, my opinion is the GB4 are not associated with the other victims.

Balled-and-burlapped trees: http://mitrees.com/image/data/trees/BandB/BBTruck4.JPG
Burlap root or fish sacks: http://xc524.eccart.jp/d634/burgonball/roots img1.JPG

 

[Evanthia]

What would you like to discuss Peter?

 

[bessie]

Regarding the burlap... I see a lot of new people posting (hello!) ALL OVER THE THREADS, particularly about the burlap and running wild with theories and occupations and who knows what.

Burlap can be purchased in HUGE ROLLS, for business OR personal use, from both Home Depot and Loew's. I can go out and buy 10 giant rolls today, either in person or online, for a pretty fair price. It is not as uncommon as the general public seems to think. I looked into buying a large quantity to wrap my fruit trees, roses, and other plants for the winter. Easy to access. You don't need to be stalking a dumpster near a nursery or work in a profession that handles burlap to have quick access to it.

Hi, PennyPie7. We have a thread dedicated to burlap. It would be a good idea if members would post comments and knowledge about burlap in that thread for easier reference.

Thanks,

Bessie
WS Administrator

Burlap and Forensics

 

[Neptune]

We have a thread dedicated to burlap.

Thanks for the info. Want me to move my burlap post over there?

 

[Neptune]

They certainly are trophies. Upholsterers are required to measure fabric precisely, just like this killer laid out each of the 4 bodies exactly 500 yards apart. This was a precise measurement.

(Welcome to Websleuths!)
I disagree with Mr. Brendt that this is “trophy” collection. I think LISK is OCD to the nth degree. A perfectionist who can’t handle anything out of place or off-symmetry.

Here’s what I think: LISK knows the Oak Beach/Gilgo area and scouted this location for his first victim (Maureen) before finding and killing her in 2007. She is the first victim LISK placed on this strip of land. His preferred disposal method is the world’s largest dumping ground: the ocean. I believe LISK is an avid winter boater, with a boat in a slip or at-the-ready all winter long. He chose an alternate “land” disposal site out of necessity because he wanted to avoid the throngs during boating season – from Memorial Day (when people put their boats in the water) thru Labor Day (when they take them out). He is not a “seasonal” killer – he’s just cognizant about what the season means for his nocturnal activity and how he must mitigate the risk of being caught. I also believe his profession requires him to be most active and about during the May-Sep time of year and the kind of vehicle he drives would not raise suspicion if it was stopped along a desolate roadside at night.

If you use Google Earth (free download) and pin these locations you’ll find an interesting pattern and what has given me the impression of precise measurement. Consider this:

Bodies disposed of here:
40°37'29.22"N 73°22'31.43"W – Maureen, 2007-July
40°37'27.97"N 73°22'35.80"W – Melissa, 2009-July
40°37'30.28"N 73°22'28.28"W – Megan, 2010-June
40°37'26.93"N 73°22'38.90"W – Amber, 2010-Sept

Markers: Beginning of tree line 40°37'31.25"N 73°22'24.63"W and concrete patch (there in 2007 per GE historic image tool) 40°37'30.88"N 73°22'24.28"W

Distance from both markers:
First victim placed 0.11 m

LISK thinking: about 1/10 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line​

Second victim placed 0.18 m

LISK thinking: not quite twice the distance of victim 1, but far enough​

Third victim placed 0.06 m

LISK thinking: half the distance of victim 1​

Fourth victim placed 0.22 m

LISK thinking: about 1/20 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line and twice the distance of first victim​

For someone to remember, without notes, where he placed his victims – a memory device seems the way to go. If you are familiar with this area already all it takes is to remember the turnaround in the road across from the beach (40°37'32.53"N 73°22'18.02"W) and just beyond that there is a concrete patch and the tree line starts… this is where to push the trip odometer reset button. This measurement method satisfies LISK’s need for symmetry and uniformity in all that he does. The distances may not be in precise increments, but they are close enough and time is of the essence so there is risk in making them exact. The length of vehicle is also a variable. Like if LISK drove a super duty-type pickup truck, for example. Not hard to imagine something like this being extremely useful in tick-infested brush:
http://allamericanautomobiles.com/car/66207567.html

 

[bessie]

Thanks for the info. Want me to move my burlap post over there?

Yes, that would be great. Thanks.

ETA: Never mind. Looks like someone already did.