Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Patrick Jane]

Has there been anymore said about that reconstruction Patrick? Other journalists must have queried the obvious things like his shoes and Caroline unrestrained?

The fingernails are a real mystery, her hands must have been held or tied while she was suffocated, even if she was sound asleep she’d have woken up and at least managed to scratch surely and regardless who the murderer is you’d think there would be some trace of them, even B wouldn’t be able to explain his skin under her nails.

The tape is equally weird, same story, whether it’s truly a vicious gang or someone closer to home it’s still nearly impossible to use tape with gloves on and without them you’d never avoid leaving at least a partial print or 2.
I don’t buy robbers in PPE at all, or them doing a forensic clean up afterwards, I think if you’ve got shaved hair and gloves it’s quite possibly to not leave traces, but not when there’s a physical assault.

It seems certain that LE are withholding certain information from the public. So we have limited details. LE tells us information that LE wants us to know, and then there are occasionally leaks to the press.

If the victim was suffocated while face down on top of something, say a pillow, would there have been DNA evidence on her nails? What if her arm was being held down? /speculation

As for the tape, it was reported in the Ta Nea report I posted yesterday that the husband's πελματικό εντύπωμα was found on the tape. This is a little hard to translate into English. But it means something like "an impression of the sole of his foot."

I wonder if LE has more info on the tape, that they haven't yet disclosed. JMO

The robbers in PPE/plastic coveralls doesn't make sense to me, because, based on the reporting, the husband hasn't described them as being dressed this way. So one could use his own statements to rule out this hypothetical explanation for the lack of DNA at the scene. MOO

 

[Polly Graf]

They’d have a job pushing cloth down her throat if she’s face down on a pillow though, I feel she’s got to have her hands pinned down or taped at the time.

I agree LE probably know more than they’re saying, I don’t see it can point to B though, if they had proof of any of the things we’re doubting they’d arrest him surely…

As for whether he’s staying in the house or not, what about the 90k he’s given a builder to build a new one? I wonder if that’ll go ahead now…

 

[lonetraveler]

I have not read every post, but wanted to respond on the comments regarding making the call hands/eyes not available. If he is using an iPhone you can have a Siri activated. As long as my phone is within distance to “hear” me, I just say “hey Siri” to activate it. From there it’s like an assistant to pretty much do whatever I want. “Can you call 911” “can you send a text to John smith” “can you read my last text received”. I use it when I’m driving if I need to message someone or get a text response. I never knew about this feature till a couple years ago when I read about a tragic incident where a high school boy was driving a minivan and went to his school for a tennis match. He went to the back of the van and went to reach over the seats for his racket and ended up getting wedged between the car wall and the end of the row seat. He couldn’t get out and uses this feature to call for help. Horrible story with mistakes made by 911 op (thought it was a joke), and cops went to wrong school, etc - he ended up passing away. Heartbreaking.

so anyways, hands/eyes free call can be made as such.

He was suppose to have had tape over his mouth.

 

[Patrick Jane]

They’d have a job pushing cloth down her throat if she’s face down on a pillow though, I feel she’s got to have her hands pinned down or taped at the time.

I agree LE probably know more than they’re saying, I don’t see it can point to B though, if they had proof of any of the things we’re doubting they’d arrest him surely…

As for whether he’s staying in the house or not, what about the 90k he’s given a builder to build a new one? I wonder if that’ll go ahead now…

In this video below, which I posted previously, at 6:36 the policeman cautions the journalist that it's not only about finding the murderers, it's about building very well the (prosecution's accusatory) brief, (so that) all of the evidence can be aligned (so that it) stabilizes/solidifies the (prosecution's accusatory) brief in court.

then the journalist posits some hypothetical scenarios (which I'm not at liberty to share here), and the policeman tells him that there's no need for people to create scenarios, as he's thinks that for sure the police will solve this case
/end of translation

So, on the one hand we have a very confident policeman, and on the other hand, based on what's been reported, apparently there is no evidence of the presence of alleged perpetrators, neither from the crime scene nor from CCTV. Make of that what you will. JMO

this is a policeman on a segment of a Greek morning show

around 6:00 the policeman rejects the journalist's statement that "no DNA has been found" and corrects him to say we can't say for sure that "no DNA has been found" as apparently "a little (bit of) DNA" was found

at 2:30 they discuss that, as of yesterday, the husband has returned to live at the house

 

[everybodhi]

snipped
I agree LE probably know more than they’re saying, I don’t see it can point to B though, if they had proof of any of the things we’re doubting they’d arrest him surely…

As for whether he’s staying in the house or not, what about the 90k he’s given a builder to build a new one? I wonder if that’ll go ahead now…

Maybe, but I’ve rarely seen an arrest made in two weeks in a murder investigation unless there are eyewitnesses that were there, are credible to a jury and willing to testify.
Investigators like to gather as much evidence as they can making sure it will result in a successful prosecution before charges are brought, usually working closely with prosecutors to get it right.
I’ve seen cases where they investigate in a way specifically to get a reaction from the suspect, I’ve even seen them release false reports of evidence while they watch and track.
If there’s more than one perp, and also auxiliary accomplices, it’s even more complicated, and looking at every possibility takes time. Every aspect of one’s personal life, and business, is investigated when a spouse is murdered, even one’s therapist can get involved when a crime has been committed.
All avenues must be explored.
I’m not pointing to anyone’s guilt in this case, I’m just giving hypothetical reasons to explain how two weeks is an incredibly short time to gather evidence and charge someone in a complicated murder investigation.
A year to solve a case like this, and bring charges, is not uncommon.

 

[lonetraveler]

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Κάρολαϊν
Here is a more detailed statement from the husband that clarifies some things.

• The robbers entered after 4 am, from a window (the one pictured) at the back of the house, after destroying the camera. The blind was open, they removed the window pane, along with the frame. The window pane fell from a height of 1,50 m to the floor, but didn't break, so it didn't alert the owners. Then, they went to the ground floor, where they found the dog, a medium sized crossbreed one, which started barking and was heard by the neighbor. The article offers quite a graphic description of what they did to the dog, and I'm not sure I want to recap it, but it ends up with the dog hanging from the staircase (which was, by the way, inside the house, so it could not be seen/arise suspicions from outside).
• The couple and the baby were all sleeping at the attic together, and they didn't hear any noise, or the dog barking, until the robbers stormed into their room.
• He gives once more a description of the robbers, says two of them were taller, about 1.80 m, thin but with an athletic build and were the ones holding guns and wearing full-face masks. The third was shorter, about 1.70, wearing a balaclava and seemed to be the leader. It doesn't say that he was overweight, just that he was heavier than the others. Also, he wasn't holding a gun.
• He told them immediately where the money was (in a Monopoly box at the basement) and they started tying him up using twine. Hands and feet in the fetal position, the head as it has been described before (with duct tape covering everything from the neck above, minus nose, leaving a him the ability to see from one eye).
• He could hear them verbally threatening Caroline that they would kill the baby unless they told them where the money was, but couldn't see if they threatened anyone with a gun, as he was facing the floor.
• He lost consciousness multiple times, for up to 30 minutes at some point.
• While he was knocked out, the robbers tied his wife using a pair of trousers, but apparently she was putting up a fight, so one of them tied a shirt around her neck and covered her mouth and nose with his hand, causing her to suffocate, right next to her daughter.
• After the couple was incapacitated, they went down, stole 10000 from the Monopoly box, and then proceeded to ransack the basement, go to the first floor, from where they took jewelry, and return to the ground floor, from where they escaped, through the main door, at about 5.30-5.35 am.
• At about that time, the husband regained consciousness and, upon not hearing any noise, believed that the robbers had left and his wife was passed out. His phone was charging on the nightstand, but he managed to crawl there, throw it on the floor, and press the on/off button with his nose, turn it on, and then call 100 at 6.16 am. AFTER that, he called his neighbor, who also called the police for help, thinking, however, that he was having a stroke.
• The police, upon arriving and storming into the ground floor , found the dog hanging from the staircase and the entire mess the robbers had left behind, and figured something bad had happened. With their weapons drawn they went upstairs, and the first thing they saw was the wife's feet. They stated they saw the baby trying to wake her up. They took the baby, and then untied B, who immediately bended over his wife, whispered something to her, and started crying.

So this story has them all sleeping together in the attic.

 

[lonetraveler]

The expanded statement makes far more sense.

It does?

 

[lonetraveler]

String, or twine as caylee described, seems to be a very odd choice of binding.

Why didn't they just use the duct tape to bind them?

 

[Dotta]

Has there been anymore said about that reconstruction Patrick? Other journalists must have queried the obvious things like his shoes and Caroline unrestrained?

The fingernails are a real mystery, her hands must have been held or tied while she was suffocated, even if she was sound asleep she’d have woken up and at least managed to scratch surely and regardless who the murderer is you’d think there would be some trace of them, even B wouldn’t be able to explain his skin under her nails.

The tape is equally weird, same story, whether it’s truly a vicious gang or someone closer to home it’s still nearly impossible to use tape with gloves on and without them you’d never avoid leaving at least a partial print or 2.
I don’t buy robbers in PPE at all, or them doing a forensic clean up afterwards, I think if you’ve got shaved hair and gloves it’s quite possibly to not leave traces, but not when there’s a physical assault.

It crossed my mind that Caroline's bindings and cloth in her mouth were put after her death or while she was already unconscious. In other words - staged. JMO

 

[Dotta]

When I looked at the reconstruction pics I saw sth I dont understand. I mean tape around upper arms of B. Is it effective? I can see the point of biding him this way with a strong rope, but tape?

 

[fraudqueen]

Wonder why he lost consciousness? It doesn't say they hit or beat him. Maybe they forgot to put that in the statement. Wonder if he was treated by medics or taken to the hospital. Anytime you are knocked out, you should be checked by a doctor.

 

[Patrick Jane]

This is a media interview with the same policeman who I've posted a few of his other interviews. This interview begins around the ten minute mark. There is some good information in here. I'll translate excerpts from this interview later, when I have the time. I watched it a few days ago, but never posted it, and had some trouble finding it again. So here it is, so I don't lose it.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

So many things that make me go...hmmm

 

[Patrick Jane]

Wonder why he lost consciousness? It doesn't say they hit or beat him. Maybe they forgot to put that in the statement. Wonder if he was treated by medics or taken to the hospital. Anytime you are knocked out, you should be checked by a doctor.

According to the reports, the husband claims to have passed out due to hypoxia because of the way he was bound and restrained by the alleged perpetrators.

 

[tayaway]

This is a media interview with the same policeman who I've posted a few of his other interviews. This interview begins around the ten minute mark. There is some good information in here. I'll translate excerpts from this interview later, when I have the time. I watched it a few days ago, but never posted it, and had some trouble finding it again. So here it is, so I don't lose it.

A journalist (Lambropoulos?) brought up one of the first questions we raised here in the thread in the early days after the murder made the news. It involves the tape on Babis, which did not apparently leave the redness etc... that comes after the covered skin is freed from the tape. Since I don't speak a word of Greek, I'm getting this from the poorly translated comments section, so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing L is saying in essence that the tape appeared to have been put on shortly before the police arrived, rather than a few hours before, when this tragedy started?

Question about baby L: If her mum, Caroline, was killed at aprox 4:30, and her father, Babis, was unable to get to her or comfort her because he was tied up etc... until roughly 6:20, wouldn't the distraught almost-toddler have cried/screamed herself to sleep within 20 to 30 minutes of her mother's death? If only she spoke more than baby gibberish.

 

[fraudqueen]

I'm no expert about hypoxia....but if he had low oxygen to that point for that long wouldn't there be brain damage? Maybe we have a medical professional on here who would know something about this condition.

 

[everybodhi]

So this story has them all sleeping together in the attic.

Yes, the original reports that they were on separate floors is old news. None of those detailed reports were true, apparently. It was all just a fictitious story but reported by all the press, globally.

“Anagnostopoulos said that, after a struggle, he was tied to a chair and gagged, Greek website Proto Thema reported.
The men then headed upstairs where Crouch was sheltering with her daughter.
"When I managed to break free, I rushed upstairs to the attic to find my wife on the floor facing down, and the baby next to her wailing," he told police.”
Suspects identified in Caroline Crouch's brutal home invasion murder - NZ Herald

The only constant truth said from the beginning in this case:

“"We've seen several other ugly murders throughout the years. But this was an extremely brutal and violent crime. One rarely encounters such barbarity in Greece, in Greek society, even among criminals", police spokesman Theodoros Chronopoulos said.”

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm getting a a headache from all the changing to different rooms, upstairs, downstairs, and all in one room.

What is the latest official account of where this terrible thing happened.

 

[Kemug]

That would turn the whole story into someone taking the money and breaking out of the house.
Would it not?

But maybe nobody at all went through that window.

 

[everybodhi]

I'm no expert about hypoxia....but if he had low oxygen to that point for that long wouldn't there be brain damage? Maybe we have a medical professional on here who would know something about this condition.

I’m no expert but..

“Brain cells are extremely sensitive to oxygen deprivation and can begin to die within five minutes after oxygen supply has been cut off. When hypoxia lasts for longer periods of time, it can cause coma, seizures, and even brain death.”

“Treatment depends on the underlying cause of the hypoxia, but basic life-support systems have to be put in place: mechanical ventilation to secure the airway; fluids, blood products, or medications to support blood pressure and heart rate; and medications to suppress seizures.”

“Most people who make a full recovery have only been briefly unconscious. The longer someone is unconscious, the higher the chances of death or brain death and the lower the chances of a meaningful recovery. During recovery, psychological and neurological abnormalities such as amnesia, personality regression, hallucinations, memory loss, and muscle spasms and twitches may appear, persist, and then resolve.”
Cerebral Hypoxia Information Page | National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke