Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

[Marantz4250b]

I'd say if they had no respect for the armourer it was for more glaringly obvious reasons and not that she was a woman.

They were probably in a state of 'are you actually effing kidding me'? and one could hardly blame them.

JMO MOO

They why on earth did they hire her?

Obviously because she was cheap whereas the first person they contacted was expensive!

Defending yourself in an accidental shooting on the grounds that the armourer that you hired and who you allowed to continue in post, who you forced a second job upon (against the published protocols) and who you were so dismissive of that you failed to attend full safety briefings and basically didn't pay attention in the parts you did attend because you thought she was incompetent, is not a defence I'd want to be promoting here, quite honestly!

As I've said before, from what we currently know about her specific performance and behavior - I mean as actual facts not the various pieces of media speculation and character assassination - I'm not seeing much evidence as to rank incompetence here. Yes, she's obviously inexperienced, but that doesn't equate to incompetence or even negligence.

She gave a reasonable account of herself in her police interviews and the only other time I've heard her speak on the subject of her job was on the podcast where she expressed feelings of being cautious about doing things. That's not a bad attitude to have, quite frankly and I'm speaking as someone who works with firearms daily. After more than 35 years around firearms you get pretty adept at spotting people who are negligent or trying to BS their way through gun safety.

 

[cocomod]

The discussion here is interesting. Yes, this is real life in that real people died from real bullets. However, it was a movie set which relies on make believe. On movie sets, guns are pointed at people all the time. The reason??? The guns are SUPPOSED to be loaded with rounds that do not kill people. They pretend to kill people - that is their job.

Dave was way more responsible for this than AB. He was smart enough to know this and plead guilty immediately. He is cocky and is known to go around protocol all this time. He loudly proclaimed cold gun as he handed it to AB.

Hannah is also way more to blame because she failed at HER JOB! It was HER JOB to handle gun safety. SHE somehow allowed live ammo on set and before police arrived she changed the scene. Something stinks here!

This set cut corners for the sake of money. I am interested in the discovery on who was in charge of those decisions. It is not always clear on movie sets how much responsibility each producer has. Sometimes and very very often, actors are named as producers to get additional income without having any actual producer responsibility. They act but have no real say on other aspects of the set.

Something else that everyone keeps discussing is AB looking at the rounds. It is not as easy as it sounds. Again, the highest priority I think the investigation should have focused on is HOW live rounds ended up on set. How they stayed on set is 100% on HB - again, that was part of HER JOB!

The prosecutor is also ignoring the admittance that this gun fired previously on THIS set when it wasn’t supposed to. The gun trigger was destroyed, so AB’s defense cannot prove their defense. IMHO, the charges are trumped up against him and cannot stick.

 

[PrairieWind]

They why on earth did they hire her?

Obviously because she was cheap whereas the first person they contacted was expensive!

Defending yourself in an accidental shooting on the grounds that the armourer that you hired and who you allowed to continue in post, who you forced a second job upon (against the published protocols) and who you were so dismissive of that you failed to attend full safety briefings and basically didn't pay attention in the parts you did attend because you thought she was incompetent, is not a defence I'd want to be promoting here, quite honestly!

As I've said before, from what we currently know about her specific performance and behavior - I mean as actual facts not the various pieces of media speculation and character assassination - I'm not seeing much evidence as to rank incompetence here. Yes, she's obviously inexperienced, but that doesn't equate to incompetence or even negligence.

She gave a reasonable account of herself in her police interviews and the only other time I've heard her speak on the subject of her job was on the podcast where she expressed feelings of being cautious about doing things. That's not a bad attitude to have, quite frankly and I'm speaking as someone who works with firearms daily. After more than 35 years around firearms you get pretty adept at spotting people who are negligent or trying to BS their way through gun safety.

Her hiring is odd. I am sure it was because she was available and inexpensive since she was just getting started. What were her actual qualifications? I agree that I'm not sure we know for sure. But she clearly did not have much experience. I don't know about how her being a woman would be perceived in the Hollywood crowd. But I don't think her attire and hair color helped. I thing she might have been perceived as unprofessional. I don't like to judge a book by its cover, but lots of folks do. It seems to me that an armorer on a movie set HAS to be confident, knowledgeable and firm. That person, though just an employee, must be a professional and have the ability to say, this is how we are doing this. The ability to stand up to world known famous actors and directors and say "no, we aren't doing that." Nothing about her that I have seen gave that impression. I don't think we know exactly how she was hired or who did it. But personally, just my opinion, she had no business in that position. That isn't meant to say is a bad person, I don't think she is. She was just in way over her head, and she acted very immaturely.

 

[zucchinibread]

Something really interesting about fight direction, armory, etc. is that they really do tend to be family affairs.

There is a company called Sordelet Inc. that does almost every major Broadway production that requires fight work (which encapsulates armory as there is no armorer role in theatre). It is run by Rick Sordelet (who I trained with) and his son Christian. I can name a handful of other fight directors who came DIRECTLY from training with Sordelet Inc. before starting their careers. So at the end of the day, the Sordelets have a monopoly on this specific aspect of the theatre industry. They've done some film and tv as well.

It seems like Hannah came from a similar situation in the film world.

 

[mickey2942]

Something really interesting about fight direction, armory, etc. is that they really do tend to be family affairs.

There is a company called Sordelet Inc. that does almost every major Broadway production that requires fight work (which encapsulates armory as there is no armorer role in theatre). It is run by Rick Sordelet (who I trained with) and his son Christian. I can name a handful of other fight directors who came DIRECTLY from training with Sordelet Inc. before starting their careers. So at the end of the day, the Sordelets have a monopoly on this specific aspect of the industry.

It seems like Hannah came from a similar situation in the film world.

This is similar to the field I work in, very specialized work, and everyone "knows" everyone else. It is a niche, and most of us were trained by the exact same people.

So, when someone is an "outlier", doing things outside of scope, it is immediately identified. And this gets around quickly. Word of mouth. And employers are aware, that they can hire these people, and get them cheap, because no one credible will give them a job.

It is an awareness that you have to be 100% professional ALL of the TIME. In both your personal life and professional life.

I think HG slipped here, not because she was young, or female, or had purple hair, but because she didn't realize the unwritten "code". You ARE the subject matter expert. And you assertively put your knowledge and credentials ahead of anyone trying to shut you down. It takes high self esteem to do this. And Chutzpah.

HG didn't have it. And I don't think that this production company wanted someone who did...they went cheap. And this is the result.

 

[zucchinibread]

This is similar to the field I work in, very specialized work, and everyone "knows" everyone else. It is a niche, and most of us were trained by the exact same people.

So, when someone is an "outlier", doing things outside of scope, it is immediately identified. And this gets around quickly. Word of mouth. And employers are aware, that they can hire these people, and get them cheap, because no one credible will give them a job.

It is an awareness that you have to be 100% professional ALL of the TIME. In both your personal life and professional life.

I think HG slipped here, not because she was young, or female, or had purple hair, but because she didn't realize the unwritten "code". You ARE the subject matter expert. And you assertively put your knowledge and credentials ahead of anyone trying to shut you down. It takes high self esteem to do this. And Chutzpah.

HG didn't have it. And I don't think that this production company wanted someone who did...they went cheap. And this is the result.

Totally! And important to clock that she's a young WOMAN, and unfortunately the industry--yes, entertainment, but more specifically, stunts, fights, armory, etc.--is still male-dominated. I'm sure the male producers had an easy time pushing her around, cutting her pay, etc.

I've had some horrible experiences with older men questioning my expertise because of my age and gender and trying to implement or get away with unsafe practices because they don't trust that I know what I'm doing.

 

[10ofRods]

The discussion here is interesting. Yes, this is real life in that real people died from real bullets. However, it was a movie set which relies on make believe. On movie sets, guns are pointed at people all the time. The reason??? The guns are SUPPOSED to be loaded with rounds that do not kill people. They pretend to kill people - that is their job.

Dave was way more responsible for this than AB. He was smart enough to know this and plead guilty immediately. He is cocky and is known to go around protocol all this time. He loudly proclaimed cold gun as he handed it to AB.

Hannah is also way more to blame because she failed at HER JOB! It was HER JOB to handle gun safety. SHE somehow allowed live ammo on set and before police arrived she changed the scene. Something stinks here!

This set cut corners for the sake of money. I am interested in the discovery on who was in charge of those decisions. It is not always clear on movie sets how much responsibility each producer has. Sometimes and very very often, actors are named as producers to get additional income without having any actual producer responsibility. They act but have no real say on other aspects of the set.

Something else that everyone keeps discussing is AB looking at the rounds. It is not as easy as it sounds. Again, the highest priority I think the investigation should have focused on is HOW live rounds ended up on set. How they stayed on set is 100% on HB - again, that was part of HER JOB!

The prosecutor is also ignoring the admittance that this gun fired previously on THIS set when it wasn’t supposed to. The gun trigger was destroyed, so AB’s defense cannot prove their defense. IMHO, the charges are trumped up against him and cannot stick.

No, guns are not pointed at people "all the time." Even when it's a prop gun, they are never to be pointed at people. It's an illusion, gained mostly through editing.

This comes from having gone to film school, studied film sets for a living, teaching at a college with a robust film program, having many friends in the business, interviewing actors. Look up what George Clooney said (and Kirstie Alley too). There are also union rules.

This low budget independent film did cut corners, and IMO, did not spell out which group (or whether any group) of prorducers as individuals or as groups were "in charge." Oddly, on most films, if you ask crew who is in charge, they say "Director." But one of the camera crew said in an interview that AB was effectively "in charge." People have said that about him in other productions - and he was clearly the main impetus for the film to be made in the first place.

We don't know that it was the same gun that misfired. And the FBI does have some explaining to do, that's for sure. However, there was still negligence on that set, obviously. The question is, are people who handle guns going to be held responsible, in NM, for negligence around that gun? The GJ felt that the expert testimony it heard was enough to charge. Now, presumably, a jury will be impaneled and they will make the decision. I think it could go either way. I do not think this is an obvious "he walks" case.

IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'​

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'

"Performers train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns," SAG-AFTRA said in a statement released Thursday, in part

news.yahoo.com

SAG-AFTRA Statement Regarding New Charges in the 'Rust' Tragedy

www.sagaftra.org

January 25, 2024
SAG-AFTRA released the following statement regarding new charges in the Rust tragedy.

To the extent that the charges filed on January 19 are based on an accusation of negligent use of a firearm predicated on this or any actor having a duty to inspect a firearm as part of its use, that is an incorrect assessment of the actual duties of an actor on set.

An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for use on set under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm.

The Industry Standards for safety with firearms and use of blank ammunition are clearly laid out in Safety Bulletin 1, provided by the Joint Industry-Wide Labor Management Safety Commission. The guidelines require an experienced, qualified armorer to be put in charge of all handling, use, and safekeeping of firearms on set. These duties include "inspecting the firearm and barrel before and after every firing sequence," and "checking all firearms before each use."

The guidelines do not make it the performer’s responsibility to check any firearm. Performers train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns or experienced in their use. The industry assigns that responsibility to qualified professionals who oversee their use and handling in every aspect. Anyone issued a firearm on set must be given training and guidance in its safe handling and use, but all activity with firearms on a set must be under the careful supervision and control of the professional armorer and the employer.

 

[Cool Cats]

Halyna Hutchins' Family Attorney Says SAG-AFTRA's Defense of Alec Baldwin 'Flies in the Face of Common Sense'​

Halyna Hutchins' Family Attorney Says SAG-AFTRA's Defense of Alec Baldwin 'Flies in the Face of Common Sense'

An attorney for the later Halyna Hutchins' family, Gloria Allred, has responded to SAG-AFTRA's defense of Alec Baldwin amid new 'Rust' shooting charges

news.yahoo.com

"The notion that an actor is not responsible if that actor holds a gun, points it at someone on a movie set, and discharges the weapon flies in the face of common sense and the law," Gloria Allred said in a statement Thursday.

"Safety protocols may be considered at trial, but they are not the law," Allred continued in her statement. "This indictment was the result of a careful assessment by the grand jury of all the facts and the law. It is important to respect the grand jury’s decision to indict, and to allow the criminal justice system to proceed to trial where the case will be decided on its merits."

 

[MyBelle]

Halyna Hutchins' Family Attorney Says SAG-AFTRA's Defense of Alec Baldwin 'Flies in the Face of Common Sense'​

Halyna Hutchins' Family Attorney Says SAG-AFTRA's Defense of Alec Baldwin 'Flies in the Face of Common Sense'

An attorney for the later Halyna Hutchins' family, Gloria Allred, has responded to SAG-AFTRA's defense of Alec Baldwin amid new 'Rust' shooting charges

news.yahoo.com

"The notion that an actor is not responsible if that actor holds a gun, points it at someone on a movie set, and discharges the weapon flies in the face of common sense and the law," Gloria Allred said in a statement Thursday.

"Safety protocols may be considered at trial, but they are not the law," Allred continued in her statement. "This indictment was the result of a careful assessment by the grand jury of all the facts and the law. It is important to respect the grand jury’s decision to indict, and to allow the criminal justice system to proceed to trial where the case will be decided on its merits."

BBM. I take anything and everything Gloria Allred says with a grain of salt. We all have heard the expression, "A DA can indict a ham sandwich."

Allred's only focus is extracting $$$$$ from that ham sandwich.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

BBM. I take anything and everything Gloria Allred says with a grain of salt. We all have heard the expression, "A DA can indict a ham sandwich."

Allred's only focus is extracting $$$$$ from that ham sandwich.

JMO

But is she right?

 

[MyBelle]

But is she right?

She doesn't care if she's right. All she's interested in is the money. She knows most high-profile people she accuses will settle rather than go to court and fight her sensational allegations.

JMO

Gloria Allred's 10 most high-profile legal cases and scandals

The celebrity lawyer's newest client is the former girlfriend of the accused face-eating cannibal in Miami – and that's not a surprise

www.theguardian.com

​

 

[Marantz4250b]

The discussion here is interesting. Yes, this is real life in that real people died from real bullets. However, it was a movie set which relies on make believe. On movie sets, guns are pointed at people all the time. The reason??? The guns are SUPPOSED to be loaded with rounds that do not kill people. They pretend to kill people - that is their job.

Dave was way more responsible for this than AB. He was smart enough to know this and plead guilty immediately. He is cocky and is known to go around protocol all this time. He loudly proclaimed cold gun as he handed it to AB.

Hannah is also way more to blame because she failed at HER JOB! It was HER JOB to handle gun safety. SHE somehow allowed live ammo on set and before police arrived she changed the scene. Something stinks here!

This set cut corners for the sake of money. I am interested in the discovery on who was in charge of those decisions. It is not always clear on movie sets how much responsibility each producer has. Sometimes and very very often, actors are named as producers to get additional income without having any actual producer responsibility. They act but have no real say on other aspects of the set.

Something else that everyone keeps discussing is AB looking at the rounds. It is not as easy as it sounds. Again, the highest priority I think the investigation should have focused on is HOW live rounds ended up on set. How they stayed on set is 100% on HB - again, that was part of HER JOB!

The prosecutor is also ignoring the admittance that this gun fired previously on THIS set when it wasn’t supposed to. The gun trigger was destroyed, so AB’s defense cannot prove their defense. IMHO, the charges are trumped up against him and cannot stick.

They aren't. The actors guild (or wherever it was) protocol linked to up thread specifically says they shouldn't be unless "absolutely necessary".

I'm not seeing the evidence that "Hannah was way more to blame...". She was not even in the building when the fatal shot was fired - because she wasn't allowed to be - so definitely didn't hand the gun to AB or go through any safety check with him. We have no confirmed chain of possession for the gun or even how long it was from it leaving her possession and getting into AB's possession.

The issue of how live rounds ended up on the set is one which needs to be cleared up - but I suspect it won't be - but I wouldn't call it the "highest priority". They were there and where firearms are concerned there is always the possibility that live rounds may somehow get onto the set. A possibility of live rounds being present is the whole reason that guns are checked in the presence of everyone present. If there were no risk of them ever being present then there would be little reason to check whether guns were loaded as it would be impossible to shoot anyone. Yet they do do these checks.

There is no evidence, that I know of, which demonstrates that this gun was unintentionally fired previously.

To say that the charges against him are "trumped up" is ridiculous, quite frankly. He shot two people one of whom died. The phrase "trumped up", to me, means that they have been invented out of nothing. There may be legitimate arguments as to whether the charges should have been brought, or that they should have been charged as lesser offences but the even definitely happend and AB definitely shot two people.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Something really interesting about fight direction, armory, etc. is that they really do tend to be family affairs.

There is a company called Sordelet Inc. that does almost every major Broadway production that requires fight work (which encapsulates armory as there is no armorer role in theatre). It is run by Rick Sordelet (who I trained with) and his son Christian. I can name a handful of other fight directors who came DIRECTLY from training with Sordelet Inc. before starting their careers. So at the end of the day, the Sordelets have a monopoly on this specific aspect of the theatre industry. They've done some film and tv as well.

It seems like Hannah came from a similar situation in the film world.

These are good points. Niche professions with relatively small markets do tend to be staffed with people from a small circle, very often with family relations between them. I guess it's difficult for other people to get into it as it's probably a big ask to entice companies away from the people who they know do the job properly.

 

[Betty P]

She doesn't care if she's right. All she's interested in is the money. She knows most high-profile people she accuses will settle rather than go to court and fight her sensational allegations.

JMO

Gloria Allred's 10 most high-profile legal cases and scandals

The celebrity lawyer's newest client is the former girlfriend of the accused face-eating cannibal in Miami – and that's not a surprise

www.theguardian.com

​

AB already settled with Halyna Hutchins family, though. Why is she carrying on now? Just curious. Maybe to get her name in the news?

 

[Marantz4250b]

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'​

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'

"Performers train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns," SAG-AFTRA said in a statement released Thursday, in part

news.yahoo.com

SAG-AFTRA Statement Regarding New Charges in the 'Rust' Tragedy

www.sagaftra.org

January 25, 2024

<<Snip>>

An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for use on set under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm.

There's that word again, "expert". As mentioned before, I think it is being misused by many - perhaps intentionally - in an effort to tone down a person's culpability. If someone needs to be an "expert" to sign something off as safe then it implies that you can delegate your duty of care elsewhere - The expert told me it was safe.

No one needs to be any sort of expert to safely use a firearm. Sorry, they just don't. Simply not pointing guns at people will prevent 99%+ of firearms accidents. Everyone knows not to point guns at people. You don't need an expert to tell you that.

The actor's job is no different to that of anyone else who uses firearms professionally - that being to use the firearm in a considered and sensible manner having regard for those around you who may be harmed by your use of it. In British law it is referred to as the "neighbor principle". You must take steps to avoid harming your "neighbor". From memory your neighbor is; ...anyone who may be so closely and sufficiently affected by your act or omission that you ought reasonably to have them in your contemplation when carrying out the act or omission in question.... Not taking reasonable steps to check that someone will not be harmed by a gun that you are in possession of appears to me to be a clear failure to consider your neighbor.

 

[Ruby12345]

AB already settled with Halyna Hutchins family, though. Why is she carrying on now? Just curious. Maybe to get her name in the news?

Different family members, it's the sister and the parents. She wants more money.

It's horrible that anyone's making money out of Halyna's suffering and death

 

[Marantz4250b]

Different family members, it's the sister and the parents. She wants more money.

It's horrible that anyone's making money out of Halyna's suffering and death

It's drifting somewhat but, I really don't get this thing in the US whereby so many people feel entitled to a payout because someone they're related to dies due to the actions of someone else.

Sure, I get the principle that if an adult of working age dies through negligence or deliberate act then their dependents are entitled to an amount to compensate for that person's loss of earning power over their remining working life. That's reasonable. That's compensation.

It puzzles me, however, as to why a sister, brother or extended family have any sort of entitlement to money.

You hear of cases where the police might mistakenly shoot a 16 year-old, for example, and the family get a multi-million dollar payout. That is not compensation. It's profiting from a death, surely?

 

[Cool Cats]

<<Snip>>

There's that word again, "expert". As mentioned before, I think it is being misused by many - perhaps intentionally - in an effort to tone down a person's culpability. If someone needs to be an "expert" to sign something off as safe then it implies that you can delegate your duty of care elsewhere - The expert told me it was safe.

No one needs to be any sort of expert to safely use a firearm. Sorry, they just don't. Simply not pointing guns at people will prevent 99%+ of firearms accidents. Everyone knows not to point guns at people. You don't need an expert to tell you that.

The actor's job is no different to that of anyone else who uses firearms professionally - that being to use the firearm in a considered and sensible manner having regard for those around you who may be harmed by your use of it. In British law it is referred to as the "neighbor principle". You must take steps to avoid harming your "neighbor". From memory your neighbor is; ...anyone who may be so closely and sufficiently affected by your act or omission that you ought reasonably to have them in your contemplation when carrying out the act or omission in question.... Not taking reasonable steps to check that someone will not be harmed by a gun that you are in possession of appears to me to be a clear failure to consider your neighbor.

Have you watched some western or cop shows lately?

1/4 of the show is people pointing guns and directly aiming and firing at each other. They will make it look like they are bleeding because they were directly shot.

They are acting with blanks.

This is about an actor's gun being loaded with a live round instead of with a blank and should Alec have noticed this? Should he have tested the gun himself?

Was it, or was it not, OK for him to assume the gun did not carry a live round?

He would not have pointed his gun at the camera if he thought for one second it contained a live round. He thought it was a "cold" gun.

Blank
Firearm cartridge
A blank is a firearm cartridge that, when fired, does not shoot a projectile like a bullet or pellet, but generates a muzzle flash and an explosive sound like a normal gunshot would.

 

[PrairieWind]

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'​

SAG-AFTRA Defends Alec Baldwin amid New “Rust ”Charges: 'Actor's Job Is Not to Be a Firearms or Weapons Expert'

"Performers train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns," SAG-AFTRA said in a statement released Thursday, in part

news.yahoo.com

SAG-AFTRA Statement Regarding New Charges in the 'Rust' Tragedy

www.sagaftra.org

January 25, 2024
SAG-AFTRA released the following statement regarding new charges in the Rust tragedy.

To the extent that the charges filed on January 19 are based on an accusation of negligent use of a firearm predicated on this or any actor having a duty to inspect a firearm as part of its use, that is an incorrect assessment of the actual duties of an actor on set.

An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for use on set under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm.

The Industry Standards for safety with firearms and use of blank ammunition are clearly laid out in Safety Bulletin 1, provided by the Joint Industry-Wide Labor Management Safety Commission. The guidelines require an experienced, qualified armorer to be put in charge of all handling, use, and safekeeping of firearms on set. These duties include "inspecting the firearm and barrel before and after every firing sequence," and "checking all firearms before each use."

The guidelines do not make it the performer’s responsibility to check any firearm. Performers train to perform, and they are not required or expected to be experts on guns or experienced in their use. The industry assigns that responsibility to qualified professionals who oversee their use and handling in every aspect. Anyone issued a firearm on set must be given training and guidance in its safe handling and use, but all activity with firearms on a set must be under the careful supervision and control of the professional armorer and the employer.

I was wondering when something like this might come out. The prosecution's stance on this has the possibility of fundamentally changing an actor's responsibilities on a set. Each actor now must be trained on firearms if they are in a scene where they must handle one? That is a slippery slope that quickly oozes over to other things than firearms. Or this just a plan to remove real firearms? We know the NM Governor's position on firearms and the SF DA's position.